Denon/Marantz - the end is near (or not)

[PJ 1]

lol, I thought your first post in the thread couldn’t get any more old man shouts at clouds, but then you post a Rick Beato video.

Lol. I said 99% of it tongue in cheek. But I do have experience in creating and listening, having been someone around the music industry for the better half of my life. I'm only 50 and I started as a professional musician until I was 26 and when 911 happened, I joined the Navy. Then I became a hobbyist, only playing with friends and making recordings when I was in-between deployments to Iraq/Afg. I can tell you music creation and consumption is changing far faster than any of us on these forums realize. When I used to give lessons, kids would dedicate time to practice. Now, I give lessons and the only times they touch their drums is AT THE LESSON. They ALL watch, listen, live on their iPhones with some kind of earbuds. 90% are on Spotify and half of them don't listen to music all the way through. I get asked to teach beats (half reggaeton, half "pop", all programed.) As far as listening on dedicated systems, most young people don't hear anything on "speakers" unless they're in a nightclub. AirPods and individual space is the norm. You'd actually be surprised how many listen to just the speakers on the phones.

I've said it on other forums and I'll say it here: this hobby is dying as we know it. The good news is the gear has never been better. The bad news is the current crop of products is probably the pinnacle of what we will see mass produced. You'll always have the 1% club buying speakers and speaker cable stands but AVRs, 2-ch record rigs, and home theater will be so tiny, you'll have those "remember when" moment as you drive past what used to be a Best Buy and now a homeless shelter.

 

[mhardy6647]

Since it seems that some, perhaps even most, members/readers here are not as old as dirt (as some of us are ) -- I'll just mention that many of the classic (American) brand names in audio from the 1950s and 1960s, though once too big to fail (or, at least, too revered and popular to fail) are long gone other than as brand names found on some truly atrocious products:
Fisher, HH Scott, Altec [Lansing]*, Emerson (more television than hifi, admittedly -- but I grew up with an Emerson black & white TV until we got our first color TV in the mid-1960s), Sherwood are all good bad examples.


______________
* The tortured and tortuous Altec saga has taken a couple of very recent odd and not terribly encouraging turns -- the "real" Altec products legacy (Great Plains Audio) has been sold and is now operating as Great Plains Acoustics -- and the long term impact of this development is still tbd.
Meanwhile, the Altec name is getting another weird, and, again, disquieting, lease on life, it seems.
See, e.g., https://hifihaven.org/index.php?threads/altec-is-back.12604/

 

[ban25]

But if the B&W sound is identical to KEF or Revel, will people buy it? Part of the weird FR helps to make it different.

+1. It's not weird, just different. And if someone doesn't like it, yet somehow is inclined to buy B&W anyway, then just EQ the treble down a bit and you are back to flat... I have Blade Two Metas, but I absolutely love the 901 D4 Signatures and they will definitely find a place in my next dedicated listening space.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

But if the B&W sound is identical to KEF or Revel, will people buy it? Part of the weird FR helps to make it different.

Speakers aren't just about the sound though. Aesthetics play a role too since they are fairly large and usually prominently placed in the living room.

E.g.: I love Focal but I'd never buy Kanta. That plastic front just looks so unbelievably ugly to me.

As for Denon: I went "screw it" and grabbed a 4800H for 1.3K€. Seemed like a reasonable price.
So I did my part to help keep them alive somehow. :'D

 

[Fidji]

Masimo Responds to 'Speculative Articles' on Sound United

Masimo provided Strata-gee with a statement to counter "speculative articles" on the "discontinued operation" designation of Sound United

www.strata-gee.com

people should really calm down and while changing landscape in home entertainment is a valid discussion to be had, my personal bet is that we will still see D&M and B&W around for foreseeable future. That being said, I do expect changes in way hoe they run the business - mayhe streamlining the portfolio, stronger brand differentiation, getting into where the growth is e.g. ls50wireless type of streaming speakers from B&W.

As a side note - I think this Marantz push into ‘lower high-end’ with their 15k Purifi Integrated and 5k boombox is not the best of ideas.

 

[PJ 1]

Masimo Responds to 'Speculative Articles' on Sound United

Masimo provided Strata-gee with a statement to counter "speculative articles" on the "discontinued operation" designation of Sound United

www.strata-gee.com

people should really calm down and while changing landscape in home entertainment is a valid discussion to be had, my personal bet is that we will still see D&M and B&W around for foreseeable future. That being said, I do expect changes in way hoe they run the business - mayhe streamlining the portfolio, stronger brand differentiation, getting into where the growth is e.g. ls50wireless type of streaming speakers from B&W.

As a side note - I think this Marantz push into ‘lower high-end’ with their 15k Purifi Integrated and 5k boombox is not the best of ideas.

I think this is very different. Marantz has been trying to position itself up brand into a more selective yet smaller market space with their new cinema lineups. Maybe in an attempt to increase margins but appears to not be working to the degree they thought. Add in Masimo's own issues and the constant rumors about a sale and it's a recipe for disaster. If they were a stock, I'd quote Jim Cramer and "sell, sell, sell."

 

[jayapple]

I'm sure it's going to happen. If it wasn't for the sound of the game, I probably wouldn't have bought the AVR, and those echo walls could have been done to some extent.

Such examples abound, just like SLR cameras, you now go out to travel, who will carry those big things, smart phones meet most people's needs.

Video games like PS5 are soon obsolete, SONY has been far behind the development of Unreal Engine, hardware obsoleted is hard, no one is willing to optimize PS5 games.


Few people spend hours sitting down to watch a movie, short videos are all the rage in the world, and now mobile devices are the mainstream.

 

[Ste_S]

Lol. I said 99% of it tongue in cheek. But I do have experience in creating and listening, having been someone around the music industry for the better half of my life. I'm only 50 and I started as a professional musician until I was 26 and when 911 happened, I joined the Navy. Then I became a hobbyist, only playing with friends and making recordings when I was in-between deployments to Iraq/Afg. I can tell you music creation and consumption is changing far faster than any of us on these forums realize. When I used to give lessons, kids would dedicate time to practice. Now, I give lessons and the only times they touch their drums is AT THE LESSON. They ALL watch, listen, live on their iPhones with some kind of earbuds. 90% are on Spotify and half of them don't listen to music all the way through. I get asked to teach beats (half reggaeton, half "pop", all programed.) As far as listening on dedicated systems, most young people don't hear anything on "speakers" unless they're in a nightclub. AirPods and individual space is the norm. You'd actually be surprised how many listen to just the speakers on the phones.

I've said it on other forums and I'll say it here: this hobby is dying as we know it. The good news is the gear has never been better. The bad news is the current crop of products is probably the pinnacle of what we will see mass produced. You'll always have the 1% club buying speakers and speaker cable stands but AVRs, 2-ch record rigs, and home theater will be so tiny, you'll have those "remember when" moment as you drive past what used to be a Best Buy and now a homeless shelter.

Anecdotes is anecdotes.

For the later, I think trad hi-fi dying is a good thing. So much of it is snake oil and lacking in innovation. Agree gear has never been better though, but it's stuff from the tech companies and small start-ups that are leading the way, and most of it is affordable. Trad hi-fi is still trying to sell essentially the same product for 50 years, at increasing cost, to an ageing boomer base.

 

[Down South]

Lol. I said 99% of it tongue in cheek. But I do have experience in creating and listening, having been someone around the music industry for the better half of my life. I'm only 50 and I started as a professional musician until I was 26 and when 911 happened, I joined the Navy. Then I became a hobbyist, only playing with friends and making recordings when I was in-between deployments to Iraq/Afg. I can tell you music creation and consumption is changing far faster than any of us on these forums realize. When I used to give lessons, kids would dedicate time to practice. Now, I give lessons and the only times they touch their drums is AT THE LESSON. They ALL watch, listen, live on their iPhones with some kind of earbuds. 90% are on Spotify and half of them don't listen to music all the way through. I get asked to teach beats (half reggaeton, half "pop", all programed.) As far as listening on dedicated systems, most young people don't hear anything on "speakers" unless they're in a nightclub. AirPods and individual space is the norm. You'd actually be surprised how many listen to just the speakers on the phones.

I've said it on other forums and I'll say it here: this hobby is dying as we know it. The good news is the gear has never been better. The bad news is the current crop of products is probably the pinnacle of what we will see mass produced. You'll always have the 1% club buying speakers and speaker cable stands but AVRs, 2-ch record rigs, and home theater will be so tiny, you'll have those "remember when" moment as you drive past what used to be a Best Buy and now a homeless shelter.

It's sad but true, I think you have absolutely nailed it with this post. Going to the 'flicks' (cinema) for the Brits in the 50s'/60s' was a given. Those huge screens to see Lawrence of Arabia, South Pacific or ground breaking films like Clockwork Orange, 2001. The last time I went to the cinema was to see - The Man Who Fell To earth - 1977.

It's not because of my age but I like to detach myself from the mass so unless I'm expecting an important call, when out I leave my mobile at home. Keep the people stupid - it's much easier to control them that way. The vast majority of people across the planet have no idea how their lives are controlled by those who have the ability to switch off the 'juice'/electricity. Can you picture the scene when all the mobiles batteries have died and can't be recharged. How many have so much of their lives stored 'in the cloud' - what will be the reaction when those facilities are taken out?

 

[vert]

All anecdote but I had just about convinced myself that wireless was the future when the Sonos app fiasco happened. Instead of Sonos 5s I went for some Revel M16s - in retrospect, my first pair of good speakers. The other day for the first time, my wife, with my daughter, played some music on my system, without asking me how to switch it on - they figured it all out by themselves. All because the Revels sound so good. With the curves and the piano black they're also a classic design and look nice in the room - the girls noticed that too.

AVRs - I appreciate the startups and new companies and what they offer but it might be years before they come up with something compact and equivalent, especially room correction. For instance all alternatives are missing loudness control / dynamic volume (and essential feature to me). The bulky dimensions of AVRs do not bother me so much anymore. Step or sit back a few meters away and they don't look so large anymore (same with speakers). I wouldn't mind it if those companies managed to offer some simplified products. Maybe not as large; or with less channels (I certainly won't ever be using 9 of them - and don't need 27 inputs), while retaining the ability to use the highest version of the correction software, even as a paid option. And please get the objective performance part right or perfect - if only because your new, smaller competitors do. [D&M, if you're reading this ]

 

[Galliardist]

It's no great loss.

I'd like to see Japanese interests buy Denon and Marantz brands for cents on the dollar and service their home market with proper HiFi. Forget the rest of the world, with 124 million people at home.

The Marantz and Denon brands are revered in Japan.

Denon have been active in that market for a long time, and even with the AVR sales internationally, that may be their core market. Except that they can't even keep their website up in Japan at the moment! I suspect the high end stereo market is already saturated there by the likes of Esoteric, Accuphase and some of the smaller boutique tube brands.

Marantz have effectively outsourced design of their serious stereo products to former Philips engineers for the last decade or so, and don't think Japanese customers haven't noticed. Price wise, for example, the new 10 range is a lot more expensive than the models they replaced, and those products are never going to compete for Japanese customers with that design at those prices. The other new amps look like Chinese products without the facilities, and that smart speaker looks like it is meant to compete with the Devialet products in a market that couldn't support one provider...

"Revering" and "buying" are two different things, I guess. If the high end Denon product on the Japanese market now doesn't sell, I'm not sure how the company gets to the point where they have products that do fit that market.

In that context, I feel the overall market is shrinking and changing. In particular, the living room stereo, and stereo in general, is slowly dying. The future is minimally intrusive equipment, augmented reality as the next stage to watching on phones, and specialist home theatres in larger homes. The future, despite how it looks, for hifi electronics will almost certainly be multichannel and in specialist rooms. A major provider of AVRs really needs to look at the future of that space.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

I wouldn't mind it if those companies managed to offer some simplified products. Maybe not as large; or with less channels (I certainly won't ever be using 9 of them

Agreed.
Bummer that there is no small 5.1 amp that can do it all from a software PoV.

Then again, I guess it does not make much sense to support e.g.: Dolby Atmos w/o having at least the capability to allow for a 5.1.2 system or sth.

 

[chelgrian]

Agreed.
Bummer that there is no small 5.1 amp that can do it all from a software PoV.

Then again, I guess it does not make much sense to support e.g.: Dolby Atmos w/o having at least the capability to allow for a 5.1.2 system or sth.

The thing is that the market for AVRs is disappearing. What most people have is a TV with 4 HDMI inputs one of which is eARC enabled. In to that they have possibly:

- A UHD Disc Player
- A Games Console
- A 3rd party streaming device
- A sound bar or other eARC enabled sound device

The number of people who need or want more than that is not large enough to support mass market products.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Since when is an AVR just about the HDMI capability?

What you are basically saying is: "There are not enough people who want more than a sound bar to support mass market AVRs" and I would counter: dedicated surround sound Home Cinema has always been a niche.

Most people rather use their TV's crappy speakers than plaster a 5.1 or lager setup across their living rooms. The only thing that really changed is that you no longer need stuff like a turntable, dedicated CD player VCR etc.
Yeah, I totally agree that the connectivity of modern AVRs is total overkill for 99% of the buyers.

 

[chelgrian]

Since when is an AVR just about the HDMI capability?

What you are basically saying is: "There are not enough people who want more than a sound bar to support mass market AVRs" and I would counter: dedicated surround sound Home Cinema has always been a niche.

Most people rather use their TV's crappy speakers than plaster a 5.1 or lager setup across their living rooms. The only thing that really changed is that you no longer need stuff like a turntable, dedicated CD player VCR etc.
Yeah, I totally agree that the connectivity of modern AVRs is total overkill for 99% of the buyers.

There are not enough people people to support the market is exactly what I’m saying for a while it was not that niche, a whole bunch of people bought AVRs and speakers because they were on sale in high street shops and TV sound as really really awful. That market is now being serviced by sound bars.

This is very similar to to what has happened in the camera market for a while low end DSRs were not niche as it was the only way to get something slightly better. Then computational photography and smartphones came along. This killed low end DSRs and the compact camera market. Interchangeable lens cameras still exist but all the manufacturers have focused on the higher end to survive.

 

[restorer-john]

"Revering" and "buying" are two different things

Have a look at Luxman's range in Japan and tell me they aren't "buying"...

ラックスマン株式会社｜プリメインアンプ、プリアンプ、パワーアンプ、真空管アンプ等、オーディオ機器のご案内 - LUXMAN

www.luxman.co.jp

製品情報｜ラックスマン株式会社 - LUXMAN

www.luxman.co.jp

Marantz and Denon could do it- they have the heritage credibility too. Bring the brands home and cater to the home market I say.

 

[Frank207be]

9

The thing is that the market for AVRs is disappearing. What most people have is a TV with 4 HDMI inputs one of which is eARC enabled. In to that they have possibly:

- A UHD Disc Player
- A Games Console
- A 3rd party streaming device
- A sound bar or other eARC enabled sound device

The number of people who need or want more than that is not large enough to support mass market products.

I still see no other solution than an AVR for my needs:
* Full surround bubble for Atmos movies and music
* Best possible stereo sound with exact placement of the main speakers.
* Clean undistorted playback and extension to 15Hz and lower with multiple subwoofers.
* SOTA room correction.
* Extended connectivity with a 2 media players, Blu-ray, Fire Stick, turntable and laptop.

I also have tried eARC on my TV and play Disney+ with full Atmos but I feel that bass output is restricted compared to my media player. Probably this is done to protect the cheapest soundbars? I should check this with REW though...

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

I also have tried eARC on my TV and play Disney+ with full Atmos but I feel that bass output is restricted compared to my media player. Probably this is done to protect the cheapest soundbars? I should check this with REW though...

eARC should just transmit the unaltered encoded signal from the streaming service (check your TV's settings).
It is possible that your AVR set eARC to a lower volume compared to other inputs.

Yes, when it comes to movies and dedicated surround setups, AVR is the only option. As was stated earlier: people like us are in a tiny minority, potentially small enough that the benefits of large scale production are no longer applicable.

 

[Miker 1102]

Many of these brands have lost their swagger with younger buyers. They depended on their fan base of middle aged + men to keep upgrading. My 26 year old daughter has no idea what Marantz or Denon stand for as a product. In fact, maybe doesn’t even know the name. But she knows Sonos or Beats. As a whole the high end audio market lacks vision beyond selling gear to old men aging out of considering spending many thousands on a system they wish they had when they were 18. As an ad agency guy for the last 30 years I see way too much specs and stats and not nearly enough emotionally compelling reasons to want to buy a specific brand.

This is right on the money. My kids have no idea about these products and they would never think about springing 2k on a receiver. They also don't know how to hook up anything. It's all foreign to them.

 

[Miker 1102]

Each time I am going to Best Buy I see a smaller choice of AVRs and I am the only one looking at them.
For sure one day I will renew my AVR but may be it will be the last time in my life.
Manufacturers need to find a way to attract young people.
D&M are too conservative.
Alas Vox is also for sale too.
The new design from JBL is showing a new way, but technical performance and characteristics are very weak.
There is room for improvement if not a revolution in product design.

Bear Buy is so depressing when you go look there. No movies, less product, no help.
The truth is many of the mainstream brands saw thier glory days decades ago. That's why they were bought by funds and consolidated brand groups. I think Voxx and Masimo are both bleeding money from audio. Massimo purchase was a crazy idea based on patents that the ceo and founder thought would put his biometric watches on par with apple. He thought he could use the distribution systems to "synergize" his watch with Sound United into a high end lifestyle brand. He is now being sued and lost control becaue Sound United is losing money. They might sell it or shut it down and strip it. I see maybe Denon and Marantz surviving. These are well designed products. Some of thr Voxx stuff ..not so much. Voxx sold off Jamo for peanuts. They used to make nice speakers.