Denon/Marantz - the end is near (or not)

[Oddball]

I am very much not a business person.
I do wonder if a company would buy a struggling business unit just to see what would happen, though.
I mean... I might.

That is actually what motivates the buyer - a struggling business and turnaround opportunities. Greed is apparently good and drives capital markets as well as our lives. Some wise books might state otherwise, but it seems nobody really cares anyway.

 

[Fidji]

I am very much not a business person.
I do wonder if a company would buy a struggling business unit just to see what would happen, though.
I mean... I might.

That is actually primary idea behind lot of acquisitions - you think you are much smarter than people who run it today.

 

[thewas]

There are very few car audio brands not owned by Harman (i.e. Burmester, ELS, etc.).

And even such car audio systems are often just a name and final voicing while the hardware comes from OEM like Harman.

I can positively state that B&O on 2018 Audi RS5 was some of the worst sound I experienced from premium car systems. Sound on my wife’s A6 that is standard issue is miles better - for much less.

Premium car sound does not necessarily translate into premium performance. The amount of customisation that needs to go into each model is significant and sometimes premium system could lag behind the stock one in terms of integration.

Exactly, it is usually more marketing than substance, namely giving the more expensive audio option the name of an audiophile brand.

 

[Beave]

Harman also owns Bang & Olufsen (automotive audio), which is starting to be featured on Acuras over the prior ELS systems!
To round out the list, they also own AKG (Cadillac), Bowers & Wilkins (BMW), Lexicon (Genesis), Harman Infinity, and JBL (Toyota).

There are very few car audio brands not owned by Harman (i.e. Burmester, ELS, etc.). Don't confuse what you know about car audio vs home audio as they're virtually different companies!

A Guide to In-Car Audio Brands | Capital One Auto Navigator

There's a story behind every name you see on speaker grilles.

www.capitalone.com

Harman doesn't own Bowers & Wilkins. That's a Masimo (Sound United) brand (for the time being at least).

As for Bang & Olufsen, Harman owns their car audio division but not the rest of the company.

 

[restorer-john]

What an odd statement. Harman is the world's largest automotive infotainment vendor.
While true that Harman is involved in home audio and pro audio, their single largest devision by revenue (almost 60%) is automotive.

What do they manufacture specifically (ie what and where are the car audio factories they own)? How much of that revenue is simply licensing (badges) and 'sound consultation' with the actual manufacture being done by long standing players?

Harman Kardon as a HiFi brand in the 1980s didn't make a thing - it was all long standing OEMs in Japan AFAIK. Their amplifiers from one, cassette decks from another, turntables from another etc.

Our Japanese Mazda CX-9 has "Bose" premium audio, but I virtually guarantee apart from the pretty Bose graphics and sound settings (Bose Autopilot, Bose Centrepoint etc) on the dash LCD, it's all made in Japan and not by Bose.

 

[EWL5]

Harman doesn't own Bowers & Wilkins. That's a Masimo (Sound United) brand (for the time being at least).

As for Bang & Olufsen, Harman owns their car audio division but not the rest of the company.

I stand corrected for Bowers & Wilkins. Apparently it's not ownership for Harman but a partnership (since 2008 at least):

Harman Signs Alliance with B&W for Automotive Products

The agreement appoints Harman International as global representative for future applications of Bowers & Wilkins technologies to the automotive OEM sector.

www.residentialsystems.com

Nicer BMWs and Volvos that have the Harman Kardon audio option typically also have the B&W system as the top of the line. As it's a partnership, I'm sure the speakers, amp, etc. are all sourced by Harman according to B&W specs! Make no mistake: most of the high end car audio brands have Harman as the OEM! As with many things in life, often we are paying for the badge!

 

[PJ 1]

Maybe you should rethink your music taste then. There's a lot to discover beyond the mainstream charts... And of course modern production methods help small bands or solo artists, the same goes for the equipment required for live performances.
Likewise, with a modern surround receiver, for example from Denon/Marantz, you can now get a sound that was unthinkable a decade ago thanks to room measurement and spatial audio (regardless of the budget).
Of course I would like to have the Dirac ART update for my Denon AVR as soon as possible.
But who knows. Denon/Marantz obviously don't fit into Masimo's portfolio, so things can't really get any worse. Given the current market share, I can't believe that it will end completely.

I've been around the music production industry for a long time and posted mostly for "tongue in cheek" responses. (And, I'm now 50 and always wanted to have a "get off my lawn" moment.) However, as several have stated already, the death of anything doesn't happen overnight. It's similar to getting old which takes time. Most music recording studios have stopped buying expensive instruments and rooms to record them in. Instead, you see plug ins and keyboards and programers. Many sessions are recorded at home and uploaded to the cloud. It's also why you see so many writers because they can do it from anywhere.

This hobby is on the tail end of the industry and if we don't recognize how the "head" (music industry/Hollywood) have adjusted (albeit slowly) to how the current consumer market consumes their product (cellphones and AirPods), we'll be left behind. It will be the same with this hobby and dedicated listening spaces with giant speakers and rooms. So, all I have left for defense is my angst and "your music sucks"... (P.S. I like Coldplay. They are a great show live! But just wait until your concerts become live-streamed to your Beats in "Spatial Audio".)

 

[mhardy6647]

Harman doesn't own Bowers & Wilkins. That's a Masimo (Sound United) brand (for the time being at least).

As for Bang & Olufsen, Harman owns their car audio division but not the rest of the company.

Is there, like, a guidebook or anything?

 

[Peterinvan]

But just wait until your concerts become live-streamed to your Beats in "Spatial Audio".)

I am waiting for some quality 3D music videos in Meta Quest type goggles that can be listened to via quality ear / headphones. I am looking forward to a visual 3D soundstage

 

[GXAlan]

What do they manufacture specifically (ie what and where are the car audio factories they own)? How much of that revenue is simply licensing (badges) and 'sound consultation' with the actual manufacture being done by long standing players?

Harman Becker is the factory.

HARMAN Announces Groundbreaking for New Manufacturing Facility in Thailand

STAMFORD, Conn. – June 20, 2024 – HARMAN, an electronics technology company and subsidiary of Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd., today hosted a groundbreaking ceremony to launch construction of a new manufacturing facility in Thailand. The new facility,...

news.harman.com

“HARMAN has a global Operations presence with automotive manufacturing facilities in Brazil, China, Hungary, India, and Mexico, including more than 12,000 employees dedicated to delivering products and services to our customers at the right cost, quality and delivery. Thailand was selected as the site location for HARMAN’s newest manufacturing facility because of the country’s high vehicle production volume, existing significant OEM presence, and talent-rich environment for technology”

 

[Barrelhouse Solly]

Sorry, I think, to see them go. At various times I've owned both Denon and Marantz products. Of course I've also owned Fisher and Harman Kardon tube amps. Anyone remember Brociner? My current living room, mainly TV, system uses a low end Denon AVR that's about 10 years old.

 

[restorer-john]

Harman Becker is the factory

They bought out Becker in the mid 90s AFAIK. It became badge engineering for everyone after that.

The quote is corporate speak for not saying much at all, but basically it appears it might be a factory purpose built in a low(er) cost country. The entire Harman website is a trough of BS.

example:

 

[Andysu]

what the mighty denon avc-x8500h isn't going to be future firmware proof , Magic cat was right

 

[AudioJester]

I stand corrected for Bowers & Wilkins. Apparently it's not ownership for Harman but a partnership (since 2008 at least):

Harman Signs Alliance with B&W for Automotive Products

The agreement appoints Harman International as global representative for future applications of Bowers & Wilkins technologies to the automotive OEM sector.

www.residentialsystems.com

Nicer BMWs and Volvos that have the Harman Kardon audio option typically also have the B&W system as the top of the line. As it's a partnership, I'm sure the speakers, amp, etc. are all sourced by Harman according to B&W specs! Make no mistake: most of the high end car audio brands have Harman as the OEM! As with many things in life, often we are paying for the badge!

We bought a Volvo XC90 8-9 yrs ago with B&W system. Also had the prelude to Dirac ART. To this day, still the best stock audio car system i have heard. Can only imagine how it would sound even better now in the pure Electric powered versions with lower background noise.
By comparison the Burmester in my AMG and Bose in my Audi are rubbish.

 

[multisport4me]

Many of these brands have lost their swagger with younger buyers. They depended on their fan base of middle aged + men to keep upgrading. My 26 year old daughter has no idea what Marantz or Denon stand for as a product. In fact, maybe doesn’t even know the name. But she knows Sonos or Beats. As a whole the high end audio market lacks vision beyond selling gear to old men aging out of considering spending many thousands on a system they wish they had when they were 18. As an ad agency guy for the last 30 years I see way too much specs and stats and not nearly enough emotionally compelling reasons to want to buy a specific brand.

Agreed. Which leads to my conclusion that they have too many brands that further compounds this issue. So as someone suggested above, they need to rationalize the brands and product lines and consolidate behind one or maybe two brands. Personally, I think they should get out of the speaker business (at least one of them) and lean into the Denon or Marantz brand. If they keep them both, they must do a better job on product segmentation and differentiation. But overall, I think the available market for high-end AV is considerably smaller due to many of the reasons you've cited and there is no way all of these brands can be successful.

All that said, I sure hope someone saves D&M. We had a momentary resurgence in great AVR/AVPs in large part because of D&M so seeing it go down the tube will be pretty damn depressing to me. I have a feeling Masimo will happily sell off pieces of the consumer unit if it fetches more money so to me, it seems likely they will "piece it out" in the end. However it goes, I know people there that have dedicated their lives to these companies and have managed to survive multiple M&As. This one feels dire but I'm holding out hope for the employees of these companies.

 

[Vacceo]

There are a lot less manufacturers for AVR/AVP´s than stereo by a large margin. I guess the development costs of a multichannel system with room correction, streaming and so on is quite higher and they have a smaller market. From memory, I can cite, Denon and Marantz aside, Onkyo, Pioneer, NAD, Arcam, Anthem, and McIntosh. They are not that numerous.

We bought a Volvo XC90 8-9 yrs ago with B&W system. Also had the prelude to Dirac ART. To this day, still the best stock audio car system i have heard. Can only imagine how it would sound even better now in the pure Electric powered versions with lower background noise.
By comparison the Burmester in my AMG and Bose in my Audi are rubbish.

Volvo does quite a good job with noise/sound insulation on its vehicles. That is the most important factor to get a good sound in a car. Any high quality sound system in a car starts with butil, aluminum and mat before electronics and speakers.

 

[Beave]

They bought out Becker in the mid 90s AFAIK. It became badge engineering for everyone after that.

The quote is corporate speak for not saying much at all, but basically it appears it might be a factory purpose built in a low(er) cost country. The entire Harman website is a trough of BS.

example:
View attachment 408480

I got buzzword BINGO on my card!

 

[Beave]

Trivia: Two American congressmen, Mitt Romney of the senate and Darrell Issa of the house of representatives, have owned several audio brands, including Denon and Marantz, through their private equity companies.

Mitt Romney's Bain Capital owned D+M Holdings, with brands Denon, Marantz, and Boston Acoustics, in the 2000s to 2010s.

Darrell Issa's DEI Holdings owned Sound United, with such brands as Def Tech and Polk, in the 2000s.

Sound United bought D+M Holdings around 2017, bringing together Denon, Marantz, Boston Acoustics, Polk, and Def Tech.

By the time of this transaction, however, I think Romney had divested himself of his Bain investments, and Issa had sold DEI Holdings to a different private equity firm.

 

[Bleib]

Oh, having just bought my first AVR in 15 years this doesn't sound promising at all
I guess soundbars are the king these days

 

[Vacceo]

Oh, having just bought my first AVR in 15 years this doesn't sound promising at all
I guess soundbars are the king these days

Which is a problem, because multichannel options are not that common comparatively.