Denon/Marantz - the end is near (or not)

[PJ 1]

It's quite something how people turn into their parents almost without fail. Every generation looks at the next, shakes their head and says the same thing the preceding generation said about their generation.

Yeah, except my generation can play their instruments vice sample them... But I digress. Look no further than writing credits from modern music in the last 10 years vice the stuff from 60s/70s/80s/90s. Does Coldplay REALLY need 15 songwriters to write their music?

 

[beeface]

my armchair expert opinion: HEOS really needed to be a success for them

if they had won a young customer's loyalty with a nice multiroom speaker, maybe they'd buy another when they move into a bigger apartment, then a receiver from them when they buy a house

 

[beeface]

Yeah, except my generation can play their instruments vice sample them... But I digress. Look no further than writing credits from modern music in the last 10 years vice the stuff from 60s/70s/80s/90s. Does Coldplay REALLY need 15 songwriters to write their music?

Coldplay released their first album almost a quarter century ago. How many artists can claim to have that kind of enduring staying power as a contemporary act, not one that just releases new albums to little fanfare, while 90% of the live set list is hits from the "good ol days"?

I'm not a fan of Coldplay in the slightest, but I am not surprised to learn that they need to recruit the likes of Max Martin to help at this point in their career

 

[kyuu]

I'm certainly not out to defend Coldplay, and I have no idea what their songwriting process is like, but maybe this is just a question of differing ideas of the threshold for a contribution that qualifies for inclusion on the credits? Iunno.

I like both traditionally produced music (i.e. people playing instruments) as well as music produced on a DAW. Don't see why its deserving of less respect, myself. I'll listen to some orchestrated Nobuo Uematsu one moment and then the album Taiko by Danger the next.

 

[Fidji]

Yeah, except my generation can play their instruments vice sample them... But I digress. Look no further than writing credits from modern music in the last 10 years vice the stuff from 60s/70s/80s/90s. Does Coldplay REALLY need 15 songwriters to write their music?

It all makes perfect sense, if you see Coldplay as "Coldplay LLC", company bringing you the product, you want to pay for. Taylor Swift with guitars.

Rock music as artistic expression of collective identity is long dead. If you do "best 100 rock albums" probably 99 would be more than 20 years old. [same is valid for jazz, there the threshold would be probably 50 years]

 

[valerianf]

Each time I am going to Best Buy I see a smaller choice of AVRs and I am the only one looking at them.
For sure one day I will renew my AVR but may be it will be the last time in my life.
Manufacturers need to find a way to attract young people.
D&M are too conservative.
Alas Vox is also for sale too.
The new design from JBL is showing a new way, but technical performance and characteristics are very weak.
There is room for improvement if not a revolution in product design.

 

[Oddball]

I apologize, because I do know what you mean... but I was amused by the snippet above.
marantz (albeit the Superscope-era marantz, not the original Saul Marantz-era marantz) ventured into speaker space a long, long time ago.

Loudspeakers: When is Good Enough, Enough? Part 1

Initially, the Audioholics topic that impressed most was their multi-part series on cables . After reading that series just about anyone who…

www.audioholics.com

Ol' Bart Locanthi got around.

Bart Locanthi

I would really like to see a page dedicated to Bart Locanthi on this site. He's been a seminal influence from JBL (acoustic lenses, LE drivers) to HiFi in general (loudspeaker modelling, and improved amplifier output design). Something like the Ed May page would be great, even if it's a little...

www.audioheritage.org

Good to know the history I was referring to more recent products though. But pricing

Marantz™ Wireless Speakers

Marantz

www.marantz.com

 

[EWL5]

One thing is for sure - the guys that sold Sound United to Masimo for 1B made one of the better deals in audio industry history. I am quite familiar with M&A transactions and I was really surprised to see 1B valuation of what is basically low growth/low margin business. Curious to see the PPT that convinced somebody to fork out that money. And it shows big gaps in governance at Masimo, which at the end of the day cost its founder/CEO his job.

BTW I have made a bet on CEO getting ousted and was rewarded with nice 50% return. Bough some Trinnov gear for the money ;-).

I will follow Sound United divestment - it looks like interesting case study. My guess it will be some PE with much better Excel skills than Masimo and paying significantly less. Biggest value are here the trademarks, B&W standing out. In the end - buy, do some cost optimization, and the sell in pieces in 3 years looks like potentially viable strategy.

Premium Electronics is tough market and one that can benefit from consolidation and being part of bigger corporations. See -> Bose & McIntosh, Samsung & HK.

If you are getting constantly sold and acquired - like McIntosh or B&W - it is always a combination of a) not performing and b) having appeal to somebody, that they could do better.

Honestly, I'd rather invest in car audio brands like Harman. Nothing like a captive market!

 

[SKBubba]

Maybe Harman would buy them?

 

[Fidji]

Honestly, I'd rather invest in car audio brands like Harman. Nothing like a captive market!

What makes you believe Harman is car audio?

HARMAN Luxury Audio Group

Five prestigious brands - Arcam, JBL Synthesis, Lexicon, Mark Levinson and Revel - come together to offer the most advanced high-performance audio systems available. From the finest stereo listening to state-of-the-art multichannel home theater systems, the HARMAN Luxury Audio Group delivers...

www.harmanluxuryaudio.com

They of course do some car audio under Revel, Mark Levinson and also Harman brand, but I would not say they are car audio brand.

 

[formdissolve]

My friend's kids are around 19 years old.. and have never heard of a surround sound system in a house before. They had no idea AVRs existed! I can't foresee a huge amount of the younger generations getting into it.. hell, even their vinyl purchases go unsealed/unlistened because they don't have a turntable. If they do it's a POS Crosley that sounds worse than AM radio at times

 

[EWL5]

What makes you believe Harman is car audio?

HARMAN Luxury Audio Group

Five prestigious brands - Arcam, JBL Synthesis, Lexicon, Mark Levinson and Revel - come together to offer the most advanced high-performance audio systems available. From the finest stereo listening to state-of-the-art multichannel home theater systems, the HARMAN Luxury Audio Group delivers...

www.harmanluxuryaudio.com

They of course do some car audio under Revel, Mark Levinson and also Harman brand, but I would not say they are car audio brand.

Harman also owns Bang & Olufsen (automotive audio), which is starting to be featured on Acuras over the prior ELS systems!
To round out the list, they also own AKG (Cadillac), Bowers & Wilkins (BMW), Lexicon (Genesis), Harman Infinity, and JBL (Toyota).

There are very few car audio brands not owned by Harman (i.e. Burmester, ELS, etc.). Don't confuse what you know about car audio vs home audio as they're virtually different companies!

A Guide to In-Car Audio Brands | Capital One Auto Navigator

There's a story behind every name you see on speaker grilles.

www.capitalone.com

 

[Oddball]

I can positively state that B&O on 2018 Audi RS5 was some of the worst sound I experienced from premium car systems. Sound on my wife’s A6 that is standard issue is miles better - for much less.

Premium car sound does not necessarily translate into premium performance. The amount of customisation that needs to go into each model is significant and sometimes premium system could lag behind the stock one in terms of integration.

 

[Peterinvan]

In other news, Bose buys McIntosh:

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/11/19/bose-buys-mcintosh-storied-maker-of-high-end-luxury-audio-equipment.html

Did Masimo make any offers to Bose to buy Sound United? Missed opportunity?

 

[napfkuchen]

Let them have their Sonos or Beats, I'll keep my records, CDs, and HiFi gear such as D&M anything over that crap. "Modern" music is all in the same key, MAYBE 3 chords, zero originality yet written by over 10 writers, compressed so bad there is ZERO dynamic range, autotune to fix the vocals, beat detective to quantize the time, each section is cut and pasted in ProTools (verse, chorus repeat) or worse, sampled from a 30 year old hit that Rolling Stones praises as "fresh". Eh, get off my lawn...

Maybe you should rethink your music taste then. There's a lot to discover beyond the mainstream charts... And of course modern production methods help small bands or solo artists, the same goes for the equipment required for live performances.
Likewise, with a modern surround receiver, for example from Denon/Marantz, you can now get a sound that was unthinkable a decade ago thanks to room measurement and spatial audio (regardless of the budget).
Of course I would like to have the Dirac ART update for my Denon AVR as soon as possible.
But who knows. Denon/Marantz obviously don't fit into Masimo's portfolio, so things can't really get any worse. Given the current market share, I can't believe that it will end completely.

 

[Oddball]

If I was SU, ART integration would be one of the projects without funding. At least until Dirac puts out the final implementation version that makes sense.

 

[Oddball]

oh, is that how business works?

I can always learn more if a lesson in business is what u had in mind. On my part, no free lessons to give .

 

[jcarys]

My want would be that Sony would buy them. Sony makes excellent home electronics, but now has so little market share and marketing in the US that most customers don't even associate them with the category, outside of television. Unfortunately, as you can see from D&M's own results, it's getting just about impossible to make a profit in this market segment, which means Sony will definitely not invest in them.

 

[mhardy6647]

I can always learn more if a lesson in business is what u had in mind. On my part, no free lessons to give .

I am very much not a business person.
I do wonder if a company would buy a struggling business unit just to see what would happen, though.
I mean... I might.

 

[Mr. Widget]

What makes you believe Harman is car audio?

They of course do some car audio under Revel, Mark Levinson and also Harman brand, but I would not say they are car audio brand.

What an odd statement. Harman is the world's largest automotive infotainment vendor.
While true that Harman is involved in home audio and pro audio, their single largest devision by revenue (almost 60%) is automotive.