Denon/Marantz - the end is near (or not)

[Snoopy]

Never even heard of revel before I joint this forum. And always considered arcam to be on a level with Cambridge. And Polk is something I would never even consider.

 

[kyuu]

Never even heard of revel before I joint this forum.

Me either. Now my system is all Revel, and I'm quite happy with it.

 

[mhardy6647]

I forgot all about Polk, I guess that is telling what will come?

I am a Polk fan from way, way back -- not coincidentally Matt Polk & I share an alma mater.




^^^ My purchased-new (albeit as demos) "Monitor Series Model 7A" Polks on the day they arrived in NH at House 4.0 (as we like to call it).

EDIT: Coupla pairs of comparatively modern Polk products here as well.

 

[Chrispy]

Dunno if exciting, but AFAIK it's hard to find other PC apps that allow you to DSP the lossless Tidal streams without using the Windows audio stack. Library filtering, playback queue management, and writeups in the music catalog are quite nice too. OTOH it's definitely overpriced considering the drawbacks it has, the missing features compared to free software, and the flaky technical support. If they added PEQ, crossfeed, and convolver to the official Tidal app I'd probably cancel my Roon subscription.

I don't use a computer for my audio, but can see the value that way.

Arcam is no longer a luxury brand like it once was. I think Marantz is one level up. Arcam these days seems more like Denon.

Marantz and Denon are virtually identical except for marketing, though. Don't know about around the world but an industry guy had mentioned in another forum that in the US Denon outsold Marantz about 8 to 1. They have wrung just about all the value out of that brand name I think so I'm thinking more Marantz could go away. Then again the last several owners have kept both going....

 

[PristineSound]

Marantz and Denon are virtually identical except for marketing, though. Don't know about around the world but an industry guy had mentioned in another forum that in the US Denon outsold Marantz about 8 to 1. They have wrung just about all the value out of that brand name I think so I'm thinking more Marantz could go away. Then again the last several owners have kept both going....

There are some tear downs for Marantz and Denon, it does show some difference and quality. But they do share the same engineers and platforms.

 

[chelgrian]

Difficult to say what Harman will do with the "overlapping" brands. D&M for sure sell in higher volumes than Arcam or JBL, so I would be more worried about the brands that don't sell that well.

I can see a substantial consolidation if D&M product lines, or even brands themselves if Harman is aiming for the Apple efficiency model. That would not be a bad thing though as there is so much overlap, unnecessarily, in D&M brands and products. With the recent hike to the pricing, lower pricing would be a benefit to the end user.

The brands are pretty much not relevant it’s the platforms that matters. When this closes Harman will have two AVR platforms

1 Denon/Marantz/some licensed stuff
2 Arcam/JBL/some licensed stuff

They will discontinue development on one of them to cut costs and it’s very unclear which one. It’s not necessarily going to be the one that ships in lower volume.

 

[Chrispy]

There are some tear downs for Marantz and Denon, it does show some difference and quality. But they do share the same engineers and platforms.

Quality differences how particularly? Chassis/case or components? Biggest difference is the hdam stuff generally.

 

[EWL5]

Quality differences how particularly? Chassis/case or components? Biggest difference is the hdam stuff generally.

Don't forget the porthole!

 

[Chrispy]

Don't forget the porthole!

I hate the porthole thing....

 

[PristineSound]

Quality differences how particularly? Chassis/case or components? Biggest difference is the hdam stuff generally.

All of the above. Depending on the model of which one. Marantz generally have a toroidal with a ferrite metal casing, where as the Denon is an EI core. Marantz seems a bit more over engineered, such as beefier heatsinks. Some Marantz has a copper inner chassis. Of course, the top of the line Marantz is just over the top compared to a Denon.

 

[Chrispy]

All of the above. Depending on the model of which one. Marantz generally have a toroidal with a ferrite metal casing, where as the Denon is an EI core. Marantz seems a bit more over engineered, such as beefier heatsinks. Some Marantz has a copper inner chassis. Of course, the top of the line Marantz is just over the top compared to a Denon.

I remember the copper thing, but does it really matter? Think their flagship incorporates more of these "quality" differences than Denon, tho. What quality difference does the type of power supply make? Haven't seen the heatsink difference generally.

 

[PristineSound]

I remember the copper thing, but does it really matter? Think their flagship incorporates more of these "quality" differences than Denon, tho. What quality difference does the type of power supply make? Haven't seen the heatsink difference generally.

In theory copper does some sort of EMF shielding but in practice, nothing shows up in the measurements that I've seen with copper inner chassis, but there absolutely is a difference when you encapsulate a transformer in ferrite metal. . .measurable difference if designed right, that is. But sonic difference or not, that is not the point of luxury. Just like leather seats in your car will not make it perform better on the track. For transparency, I personally am into these luxury and shinny things when it comes to audio and there are many others like me. I'm one of those guys who will pay extra for luxury; for example, I won't buy a Buckeye Amp for my main system despite its great performance, affordable price and incredible value.

 

[mhardy6647]

I don't use a computer for my audio, but can see the value that way.

Conversely, I do occasionally use my hifi for very simple calculations.

 

[Chrispy]

In theory copper does some sort of EMF shielding but in practice, nothing shows up in the measurements that I've seen with copper inner chassis, but there absolutely is a difference when you encapsulate a transformer in ferrite metal. . .measurable difference if designed right, that is. But sonic difference or not, that is not the point of luxury. Just like leather seats in your car will not make it perform better on the track. For transparency, I personally am into these luxury and shinny things when it comes to audio and there are many others like me. I'm one of those guys who will pay extra for luxury; for example, I won't buy a Buckeye Amp for my main system despite its great performance, affordable price and incredible value.

I wouldn't buy either brand if I were going for luxury/top end. Aesthetics of gear aren't my thing particularly, tho, more about performance/value for me. If I ever buy another amp (have extras now) I'd probably buy a Buckeye. My three Denons are fine, last Marantz I had was in the 80s. YMMV

 

[Chrispy]

Conversely, I do occasionally use my hifi for very simple calculations.

Really....you like to listen while you do it in your head?

 

[PristineSound]

I wouldn't buy either brand if I were going for luxury/top end. Aesthetics of gear aren't my thing particularly, tho, more about performance/value for me. If I ever buy another amp (have extras now) I'd probably buy a Buckeye. My three Denons are fine, last Marantz I had was in the 80s. YMMV

For the utilitarian, you simply cannot beat the Buckeye in performance and value. Buckeye would be an option for me, if I was building a home theater as I would not want to spend the extra money for luxury.

But this my friend is stunning luxury that I would spend the money on if money isn't a thing.

 

[dlaloum]

Harman have basically done nothing with Roon since taking over. Prior to that Roon was constantly innovating and evolving.
Does not bode well for Sound United....

Which is also what happened to Lexicon.

 

[dlaloum]

I wonder how they will deal with Arcane, Denon and Marantz doing essentially the same.

Also JBL Ma series - they now have 4 brands competing in the same AV space....

And rather than spend anything on development and innovation, they chose to buy trinnov software and design, and rebadge it for their flagship....

No it does not bode well

 

[Chrispy]

For the utilitarian, you simply cannot beat the Buckeye in performance and value. Buckeye would be an option for me, if I was building a home theater as I would not want to spend the extra money for luxury.

But this my friend is stunning luxury that I would spend the money on if money isn't a thing.
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Meh, that porthole thing plus we don't usually get the silver option here in the US. Stunning, must be the in the eye of the beholder thing I have more than enough power amps at this time and don't display them on a bench/table, they're in a rack and out of line of sight.

 

[dlaloum]

For JBL, they changed it to low end, mass consumer product brand. And they changed infinity to car and marine audio brand.

They unlikely will do anything drastic with B&W, since it has a huge customer base, but I think they will begin to apply a lot of science to it since B&W are. . .well, you know.

With Denon and Arcam, that's just too redundant, not sure what they will do. Marantz, is a level below Mark Levinson, so I think they will likely keep.

A lot of these company have too many brands and line up's, it doesn't make a whole lot of business sense. I like what Apple did, they simplify their line up and made it less confusing for consumers and streamline their R&D and production; I am also in the camp of only give your customers a limited option, otherwise, it's just analysis paralysis.

They could do a GM - and work on extending shared investment on internal platforms, while providing badge and feature based external differentiation....

The core DSP boards could be shared across all the brands, along with the HDMI inputs and associated video/control handling...

Differentiation could be found in the DAC area, and perhaps in the amps, but if you keep to a decent modular format - the manufacturing costs could drop.... then you need to work out whether the multiple brands are an asset or a liability in marketing!