Denon DCD-3560 Review (CD Player)

[dualazmak]

This is a follow-up of my above post #8.

Let me just share two photos of my DENON DCD-3500RG (22 kg!) for your possible aesthetic reference and interest.

Edit: Please let me add one more photo;

 

[NTTY]

Hi everyone,

Today I wanted to play with an undocumented feature of the big Denon, as it offers MSB adjustments on its 4 PCM58. The BurrBrown PCM58 can be adjusted on up to 4 bits via 4 trimming pots. But the Denon offers only two.
The adjustment procedure is not described in the service manual, and the schematic is absent too, so I didn't know how to use them. I guess, ilit’s because the converter board is below the servo one, and under a copper plate. So it is is difficult to access the trimming as they must be adjusted while playing a tone. But I found my way, not really artistic, but good enough:

There are two PCM58K per channel and they have 2 trimming pots each (on the right of each chip as you can see below). It isn’t clear what the sequence should be for the adjustment, so that was no easy.

I could not improve right channel, but left channel saw a massive 8dB improvement in distortion. I will need to update the initial post

This is so much of an improvement that it's nearly equivalent to a well implemented 1bit DAC as shown below (THD vs Frequency @-12dBFS, Denon 3560 vs Onkyo C-733):

I like to use the above test to show the relative lack of linearity of R2R DACs, but this one is just amazing now.
That was 35 years ago

I need to play more with right channel, I might have got lucky with left one and there are sequences of adjustments that I did not try yet.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Hi everyone,

Today I wanted to play with an undocumented feature of the big Denon, and that is the fact that it offers MSB adjustments on its 4 PCM58. The BurrBrown PCM58 can be adjusted on up to 4 bits via 4 trimming pots. But the Denon offers only two.
The adjustment is not described in the service guide, and the schematic is absent too, so I didn't know how to use them.
The probable main reason why it's not documented, I guess, is because the converter board is below the servo one and under a copper plate. So it is is difficult to access them and adjust while playing a tone. But I found my way, not really artistic, but good enough:

View attachment 416807


There are two PCM58K per channel and 2 trimming pots each (on the right of each chip as you can see below), so that was no easy.

View attachment 416809

I could not improve right channel, but left channel saw a massive 8dB improvement in distortion. I will need to update the initial post

This is so much of an improvement that it's nearly equivalent to a well implemented 1bit DAC as shown below (THD vs Frequency @-12dBFS, Denon 3560 vs Onkyo C-733):

View attachment 416810

I like to use the above test to show the relative lack of linearity of R2R DACs, but this one is just amazing now.
That was 35 years ago

Would it have been factory tuned to be optimal and has drifted over time, or was this something that wasn't tuned at the factory.

 

[NTTY]

Would it have been factory tuned to be optimal and has drifted over time, or was this something that wasn't tuned at the factory.

I’ve read somewhere it was and I think it’s true. The trimming pots are hyper reactive and if not well adjusted, the distortion goes immediately over the roof.
So yes I think both channels were adjusted to have the same performances. I need to try again if I can do better with right channel though.

 

[jon_s]

Great test, and I can't believe I didn't find it sooner. I'm not at all surprised. Denon's Burr-Brown players and converters have always suggested better performance (for their upper-end players) than Philips and, based on sound and very simple measurements (textbook 1kHz sine from my DCD-1650AR), I've never really doubted them.

It's strange how audiophiles have always somehow, ignored Denon, even though built quality was a bit better than Naim, Arcam or Marantz..
Maybe it was their neutral presentation against the midrange emphasize of the "audiophile" players.

I also found this strange, but you're correct - surprisingly many audiophile-marketed CD players of the 1990s had a certain loose/warm midrange-forward sound that apparently helped them sell, while Denons were impressively transparent and just got more precise and refined as you moved up the line. The Denons were (to me) easily the best-sounding affordable players on the market in the 1990s, and I compared with many until I first bought a DCM-560 and then a DCD-1650AR. I still have DAP-5500s in two different systems used with 48kHz Apple Music, with the DCD-1650AR in one system, and a DCD-S1 in yet another. Keep a spare parts/repair DAP-5500 and DCD-3000, too, and a DAP-2500 in a fourth system. The DCD-3560 is on my wanted list, but I want a local one to avoid any risk to the transport in shipping.

 

[NTTY]

Great test, and I can't believe I didn't find it sooner. I'm not at all surprised. Denon's Burr-Brown players and converters have always suggested better performance (for their upper-end players) than Philips and, based on sound and very simple measurements (textbook 1kHz sine from my DCD-1650AR), I've never really doubted them.

Indeed, BurrBrown DACs were better than Philips R2R DACs because benefiting from laser trimming at productIon, and the optional fine MSB adjustments allowed much better linearity. And we see in that exemple that they delivered.

I also found this strange, but you're correct - surprisingly many audiophile-marketed CD players of the 1990s had a certain loose/warm midrange-forward sound that apparently helped them sell, while Denons were impressively transparent and just got more precise and refined as you moved up the line. The Denons were (to me) easily the best-sounding affordable players on the market in the 1990s, and I compared with many until I first bought a DCM-560 and then a DCD-1650AR. I still have DAP-5500s in two different systems used with 48kHz Apple Music, with the DCD-1650AR in one system, and a DCD-S1 in yet another. Keep a spare parts/repair DAP-5500 and DCD-3000, too, and a DAP-2500 in a fourth system. The DCD-3560 is on my wanted list, but I want a local one to avoid any risk to the transport in shipping.

I suppose Denon like Yamaha suffered at the beginning of the CD adventure because they were not the co-inventors, so all eyes were on Philips and Sony. But I tested a big Yamaha CDX-1110 of that era, with BB DACs (PCM56K), and they were crazy good too after MSB adjustment. Yamaha did components too and especially very good oversampling filters. Their big players were also a showcase of their own chips.

But like you, I have a thing for Denon, they created some amazing gears. The two preamps you mentioned used the PCM56, if I’m not mistaken, the same I measured in the Yamaha. I don’t know if they offered the trimming pots, maybe the DAP-5500 has them, it was using the K version, if I recall. I’d love measuring those!

 

[dualazmak]

Really wonderful thread, I have been very much being impressed by the intensive reviews and discussions.

Indeed, BurrBrown DACs were better than Philips R2R DACs because benefiting from laser trimming at productIon, and the optional fine MSB adjustments allowed much better linearity. And we see in that exemple that they delivered.

Yes, now I can well understand the excellency of Burr-Brown DACs including PCM58P (not PCM58K, right?) in your DCD-3560.
It is also much impressive, at least for me, seeing printed "JAPAN" on your PCM58P chips within DCD-3560.

I already shared that I still keep DCD-3500RG which I bought (brand new one) in 1991 in Tokyo, and I assume the inside of my DCD-3500RG would be quite similar to your DCD-3560.

Just for your possible interest and reference, I also keep ONKYO DAC-1000(S) (I bought brand new one in 2011 or 2012) which has two of Burr-Brown PCM1795 (max. 32 bit 192 kHz) in L and R channel independently, as I shared in my post here and here.

I once tested using my DENON DCD-3500RG as CD-transport sending digital signal through optical S/PDIF or digital coaxial (excellent 75 ohm digital cable) into ONKYO DAC-1000(S) which has almost pro-grade various digital input capabilities, i.e. one AES/EBU, two of COXIAL, two of optical S/PDIF (plus one optical S/PDIF out), and of course one USB. The analog output is both balanced XLR and unbalanced RCA.

Also, I was using ONKYO DAC-1000(S) quite a while as my main USB DAC in my PC-based stereo audio system (before I purchased OPPO SONICA-DAC, then OKTO DAC8PRO for present multichannel setup).

Even nowadays, sometimes I use ONKYO DAC-1000(S) (as well as DENON DCD-3500RG and ESS-DAC-based OPPO SONICA DAC) for comparative listening sessions up to 192 kHz; I am always very much impressed by the still-excellent sound quality given by DAC-1000(S) and DCD-3500RG (both Burr-Brown DAC based), as you may easily imagine.

 

[restorer-john]

Indeed, BurrBrown DACs were better than Philips R2R DACs because benefiting from laser trimming at productIon, and the optional fine MSB adjustments allowed much better linearity. And we see in that exemple that they delivered.



I suppose Denon like Yamaha suffered at the beginning of the CD adventure because they were not the co-inventors, so all eyes were on Philips and Sony. But I tested a big Yamaha CDX-1110 of that era, with BB DACs (PCM56K), and they were crazy good too after MSB adjustment. Yamaha did components too and especially very good oversampling filters. Their big players were also a showcase of their own chips.

But like you, I have a thing for Denon, they created some amazing gears. The two preamps you mentioned used the PCM56, if I’m not mistaken, the same I measured in the Yamaha. I don’t know if they offered the trimming pots, maybe the DAP-5500 has them, it was using the K version, if I recall. I’d love measuring those!

Selection K was good, but selection S was better. Only for Sony's TOTL machines.

And their CDP-X7ESD trimmed all 4 top MSBs (just one channel shown)

What is exactly is going on with the Denon when the PCM-58P is an 18bit D/A and they are claiming "true 20 bit"? Are they bit shifting (like Yamaha) or what?

 

[restorer-john]

I have three (3) Sony CDP-X7esD players here if anyone wants to see what an actual SOTA multibit player can achieve, 35 years down the track. LOL.

 

[jon_s]

The two preamps you mentioned used the PCM56, if I’m not mistaken, the same I measured in the Yamaha. I don’t know if they offered the trimming pots, maybe the DAP-5500 has them, it was using the K version, if I recall. I’d love measuring those!

Yes, they are K chips, and include an adjustment for each. If you can ever find one in your area to measure I would be thrilled to see the results. I find these early DACs very interesting due to the analog filter, and really nice for 48kHz where most quirks are out of the audio band. The later DAP-2500 omits that but adds a sample and hold circuit, also downgrading to J DAC chips. The 5500 sounds much better, though, which Denon must’ve known since they continued to sell them for years at a premium over the 2500. Their analog circuits are also very good when the excessive gain stage is defeated.

 

[NTTY]

I have three (3) Sony CDP-X7esD players here if anyone wants to see what an actual SOTA multibit player can achieve, 35 years down the track. LOL.

Can I buy one from you John?

 

[NTTY]

Really wonderful thread, I have been very much being impressed by the intensive reviews and discussions.


Yes, now I can well understand the excellency of Burr-Brown DACs including PCM58P (not PCM58K, right?) in your DCD-3560.
It is also much impressive, at least for me, seeing printed "JAPAN" on your PCM58P chips within DCD-3560.

They are the K version indeed. Check out the latest picture I posted, you can see the little K on the right side of the DAC (left side on the picture since they are upside down).

Also, I was using ONKYO DAC-1000(S) quite a while as my main USB DAC in my PC-based stereo audio system (before I purchased OPPO SONICA-DAC, then OKTO DAC8PRO for present multichannel setup).

Even nowadays, sometimes I use ONKYO DAC-1000(S) (as well as DENON DCD-3500RG and ESS-DAC-based OPPO SONICA DAC) for comparative listening sessions up to 192 kHz; I am always very much impressed by the still-excellent sound quality given by DAC-1000(S) and DCD-3500RG (both Burr-Brown DAC based), as you may easily imagine.

We did not need more

 

[NTTY]

I have three (3) Sony CDP-X7esD players here if anyone wants to see what an actual SOTA multibit player can achieve, 35 years down the track. LOL.

I want it, I want it, I want it

I managed to reach nearly -108dB THD @-6dBFS with the Denon (left channel, right is -103dB at best) which is amazing. It beats the recent Topping Centaurus:

SOTA you said, and you’re right, as always.

 

[restorer-john]

Can I buy one from you John?

No. You've got enough CD players yourself! Too many like me. LOL.

One is a future donor (it works perfectly, but has a dim display and is physically rough.) I bought it second hand for parts in case I lose a laser or a mechanism part etc. It's easier to strip parts from something that's not perfect, otherwise I feel sorry for the things and have to restore them.

Another X7 is NOS mint in its box (bought it new from Sony on run-out over 30 years ago) and the 3rd X7 (also mint condition) I use alongside the CDP-338ESDs. That unit, along with a TAN77es and TAE77es preamp came from Adelaide (ex Sony manager) (2000km away) in a custom built crate I had made back in about 2004. It completed a 2nd set of that first ES series.

 

[NTTY]

What is exactly is going on with the Denon when the PCM-58P is an 18bit D/A and they are claiming "true 20 bit"? Are they bit shifting (like Yamaha) or what?

I don’t know and failed to understand the vague explanations I could find.

It’s what they called at the time the “Advanced Super Linear Conversion”. To me, it looked like a split in two of the digital signal and a shift to move away from 0 crossing, similar to what BurrBrown called the co-linear conversion in the PCM63.

The below drawing from the service manual show the “Lambda” processing following the oversampling filter.

Denon DCD-3560 conversion diagram​

Searching a bit more, I found that the Denon DCD-3500 had the exact same architecture, and it shows two undocumented TI CF37606 following the oversampling and each feeding the two DACs after going through a series of logical gates as well as through 8bits shift registers, all of which is summarized by “Lambda Processor” in the above view.

As per the explanations of Denon, they claimed that they retained the 20bits resolution out of the SM5803. But I’m not sure if it’s true engineering or marketing BS. But shifting by one bit “a la PCM63 colinear” means there would still be one bit lost with two 18bits DACs, at which point they could claim that increasing the oversampling to 8x instead of 4x was recovering the last one. I really don’t know.

BurrBrown PCM63 Co-linear conversion​

At least I verified if there was a bit depth increase like with their Alpha processing, and no, at -90.31dBFS I get the 3DC well represented and not a sine like I saw with the subsequent Denon DCD-S10 for instance.

If you know more about the bit shifting of Yamaha, I’m interested

​

 

[NTTY]

Really wonderful thread, I have been very much being impressed by the intensive reviews and discussions.

Thanks again!

I already shared that I still keep DCD-3500RG which I bought (brand new one) in 1991 in Tokyo, and I assume the inside of my DCD-3500RG would be quite similar to your DCD-3560.

Doing some research today, I discovered that they share the exact same architecture from digital filtering to DAC output. The service manual of the DCD-3500RG includes detailed schematics which help to better understand the “Lambda” circuitry, but not how it manipulates the digital stream before feeding the PCM58-K, though.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Do you reckon it could be a similar "staggered" approach as Sony's with dual TDA1541s, i.e. two interleaved 4x OS DACs? 18 bits at 8x OS still is "only" good for an effective 19.5 bits though. I mean, you could be throwing some shaped dither into the mix for good measure, which was how Philips had gotten 16 bits worth of performance out of 14-bit DACs at 4x OS (which would only be 15 bits effective "raw").

 

[NTTY]

Yep, the NPC oversampling filter had a noise shaper and Denon could have decided to activate it, indeed. But I did not see a trace of it at wider band analysis. That said, I’ll check again now that I have a Cosmos E1AD and its scaler. Maybe the lower noise floor will help me find some evidences.

And yeah, it could have been staggered signal but the BB were running at 8x, so no need to drive them slower (as opposed to a TDA1541). Sony themselves did not use their staggered digital output with BB DACs. So I don’t think it is.

And the marketing material of Denon talks about going away from the zero crossing point, in these terms:
LAMBDA stands for Ladder-form Multiple Bias D/A. Using a newly developed LSI, digital data is divided into two systems, each of which is shifted by applying digital bias in plus and minus directions near the 0 cross point, thereby eliminating 0 cross distortion in principle. (…)
When the two shifted data are added after D/A conversion, the DC component is removed and the two shifted data are combined.(…)
The two data have no MSB inversion (…).
Source here.

And that is exactly the theory of the colinear DACs that appeared later with the PCM63 (that I mentioned in post #35), so I guess it is, also because that requires two DACs to process the positive and negative part of the signal.

The BurrBrown PCM63 Datasheet says:
This new, complementary linear or dual-DAC Colinear approach, which steps away from zero with small steps in both directions, avoids any glitching or “large” linearity errors and provides an absolute current output. The low level performance of the PCM63P is such that real 20-bit resolution can be realized, especially around the critical bipolar zero point. Table I shows the conversion made by the internal logic of the PCM63P from binary two’s complement (BTC). Also, the resulting internal codes to the upper and lower DACs (see front page block diagram) are listed. Notice that only the LSB portions of either internal DAC are changing around bipolar zero. This accounts for the superlative performance of the PCM63P in this area of operation.

​

Maybe all of this was worth few dB more of resolution to reach 20 equivalent bits, indeed. I could test that too with the shaped noise test files and see how low the Denon can go. The Cosmos E1AD is less noisy than the Motu I’ve been using so far. So I’ll check again and report.

 

[NTTY]

It is also much impressive, at least for me, seeing printed "JAPAN" on your PCM58P chips within DCD-3560.

I realized only now what that might imply. Do you think there was a close collaboration between BB and Denon at the time?
Considering that nearly all Denon Players used BB chips, I’d say yes. But having the PCM58 made in Japan increases chances of a much closer local relationship between the two companies.
I’ve always thought the 3560 and 3500RG were the precursors of the colinear conversion that BB later used. That could be one more clue.

 

[Scytales]

I realized only now what that might imply. Do you think there was a close collaboration between BB and Denon at the time?

As far as I know, there was a very well documented close relationship between Burr Brown and Sony somewhere around 2000. For instance, (i) Burr Brown publicly acknowledged the help Sony provided to develop the BB DSD1700 DAC chip, (ii) the newer BB PCM1738, which was designed by Burr Brown Japan, also existed in a Sony part number (the CXD9657 which made its debut in the SCD-XA777ES) possibly built in Sony Semiconductor factories and (iii) latter on, BB built a custom DAC chip for Sony (the DSD1751 found in the SCD-XA1200ES among other devices). It is not improbable Denon has developped a similar relationship with Burr Brown.