Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review

[peng]

Hopefully at some point, anyone with any of the models that have substituted DAC’s can be retested by @amirm to see what kind of impact it has. Denon has many excellent reviews here, but none of them have the substituted DACs so we have no idea of the impact of the change. These very good results lead people to assume they get the same performance as in the past reviews which seems unlikely but until someone sends one of the units in to retest, there will be no way to know. Still hoping at least one of these units will get retested.

It almost makes sense for Amir to buy one for the test, then auction it off after to recover the cost. The $4600 8500HA is a lot to swallow though.

 

[Dj7675]

It almost makes sense for Amir to buy one for the test, then auction it off after to recover the cost. The $4600 8500HA is a lot to swallow though.

Didn't the x3700 also have their DAC substituted? Might make just as much sense an x3700 if that is the case.

 

[Sal1950]

If I had to make a guess, Denon worked very hard to improve the numbers being spit out by some early units. AFAIR even going so far as to have some communications with Amir during those times. With this knowledge I feel fairly comfortable in believing the next round of AVR's will have been tweaked to the best of their (Denon's) ability to bring a high level of performance to the new gear. Time will tell, patience grasshoppers. LOL

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Amir did review a second AV8805A that supposedly had the ES9010k2M. Bench performance did not seem to have suffered but that could have been because even the AV8805A that has the originally used AK4490 did not measure as good as Denon AVRs to begin with. So in that case the DAC might not have been the bottleneck anyway. We are going to have to wait for someone to send an AVR-X8500HA (even then, we would have to assume, or find out for sure if it in fact has the ESS chip) in for a direct comparison, unfortunately.

Ah thanks. Good to know, I wasn’t aware of this.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Didn't the x3700 also have their DAC substituted? Might make just as much sense an x3700 if that is the case.

I would guess everyone which previously had AKM had to switch to ESS after the factory burnt down.

 

[Dj7675]

I would guess everyone which previously had AKM had to switch to ESS after the factory burnt down.

I looked around and yes all of the new units had to switch to the AKM. Denon/Marantz pricing has increased dramatically and substituted a lower performing DAC. People shopping look here but most won't know that the performance they are getting probably is not what is shown here.

 

[Sal1950]

I would guess everyone which previously had AKM had to switch to ESS after the factory burnt down.

Yes, and AKM has announced that the previous line of processors will be retired and replaced with updated designs when time allows.

I looked around and yes all of the new units had to switch to the AKM. Denon/Marantz pricing has increased dramatically and substituted a lower performing DAC.

I wouldn't make too much an issue of that, the real-world performance will depend more on the implementation of the DAC than it's published numbers. Price increases can be blamed on many outside issues.
Again we will see how the designs perform when Amir get's his hands on one.

 

[AdamG]

I have a question to anyone running a Denon AVR-X8500h with a 9.2.6 setup. Since the April 2022 firmware update, the Denon 2016 AVR Remote App seems to no longer display the Surround Back L&R speakers when in the “Options”, “Channel Level Adjust” screen. Using the AVR App, not the physical Remote control.

I can swear that it did before the April Firmware update???. I have 9.2 base with 6 height channels. In Atmos or DTS:X or matrix the Surround Backs no longer appear in the Remote App under the Options, Channel Level Adjust screen (see third graphic below).

Firmware is Version: 8300-5234-5191-7040
-DTS Version: 4.30.10.10

This is the graphic you see upon initially opening the Remote App on an iPad. As you can see the Remote App does recognize the proper DTS Neural:X configuration of 7.2.6 ((note the (Surround Back Left & R) show as present and active)).

Same as above except in the Dolby ATMOS 9.2.4 configuration. Note again: Both Surround Back channels are shown as configured and active.

This is what I see with the above Dolby Atmos 9.2.4 configuration active. Note the Surround Back channels are missing from the graphic. On this screen you can tap on any speaker and adjust the Trim. So it’s not just a display but an active functional touchscreen. However, I can not adjust trims for the Surround Back channels as they are not present anymore.

Can anyone with a similar setup take a look and see if they are getting the same screen display (sans the SBL&R) or if they can see and adjust the SBL&R channels? Please include in your response what firmware are you running?

Thank you very much for any assistance in figuring out what the heck is going on.

So I submitted a Bug Report to Denon and Audyssey about this “No Surround Back” speakers showing in the channel trim gui of the Denon AVR App. As of today Denon issued a new AVR Firmware update package and the problem has been corrected. See pic below.

 

[Sal1950]

So I submitted a Bug Report to Denon and Audyssey about this “No Surround Back” speakers showing in the channel trim gui of the Denon AVR App. As of today Denon issued a new AVR Firmware update package and the problem has been corrected. See pic below.

View attachment 211646

Awesome, thanks Adam.
I wondered why I got a firmware update notice today for my Marantz when I just had one a couple months back?
Must have been a D/M wide issue?
I got to hand it to D/M, this continued support on my 4+ year old pre-pro is above and beyond to me.

 

[Jpert]

I’m posting this in the x8500h thread, but I suppose this applies to all D&M AVRs. I wanted to share my experience with using Eco Modes “Auto” vs. “Off” and see if anyone else has had a similar experience or insights into the mechanics/effects. I am actually using an AVR-A110 and always have defaulted to Eco Auto. I consistently had been noticing listening fatigue after extended periods at spirited but not overly loud levels (well below reference). I did not get the same effect when driving the front three speakers through an Anthem MCA 325 amp at the same levels. I thought either my speakers were presenting too difficult a load (8 ohms with sub 4-ohm dips in spots) to the AVR at these levels resulting in distortion, or engaging the internal amps resulted in a significant hit to the SINAD of the pre-amp section. Just for kicks, I switched Eco mode from “Auto” to “Off”. There was not an immediately noticeable change in sound quality, but things did appear to sound a little cleaner (completely subjective and probably would fail double-blind test) and most importantly the listening fatigue was completely eliminated after extended sessions (wife agrees). I now feel like I can offload the Anthem as originally planned. Does anyone know if Amir has tested Eco mode Auto vs. Off for AVR amp sections? Logic would tell me that “Off” simply equals “Auto” after it switches to the higher rail voltage, but now I’m curious if an active mechanism remains that is adding distortion.

 

[peng]

I’m posting this in the x8500h thread, but I suppose this applies to all D&M AVRs. I wanted to share my experience with using Eco Modes “Auto” vs. “Off” and see if anyone else has had a similar experience or insights into the mechanics/effects. I am actually using an AVR-A110 and always have defaulted to Eco Auto. I consistently had been noticing listening fatigue after extended periods at spirited but not overly loud levels (well below reference). I did not get the same effect when driving the front three speakers through an Anthem MCA 325 amp at the same levels. I thought either my speakers were presenting too difficult a load (8 ohms with sub 4-ohm dips in spots) to the AVR at these levels resulting in distortion, or engaging the internal amps resulted in a significant hit to the SINAD of the pre-amp section. Just for kicks, I switched Eco mode from “Auto” to “Off”. There was not an immediately noticeable change in sound quality, but things did appear to sound a little cleaner (completely subjective and probably would fail double-blind test) and most importantly the listening fatigue was completely eliminated after extended sessions (wife agrees). I now feel like I can offload the Anthem as originally planned. Does anyone know if Amir has tested Eco mode Auto vs. Off for AVR amp sections? Logic would tell me that “Off” simply equals “Auto” after it switches to the higher rail voltage, but now I’m curious if an active mechanism remains that is adding distortion.

I think he did test eco. If not, you can do it yourself. The way it works may not be exactly the same for all models but I suspect it would be at least very similar in principle. So in general, eco in auto would kick in when volume reach around -30, +/- a few dB (I guess..), depending on the model number/year. There is likely a delay (at least that's the case for my X4400H) between it changes from on to off and vice versa.

So if you listen with the volume setting at around -30, in Eco auto, the amp may clip more often if you are listening to contents that have high dynamic range. For example, at say -32 to -35, with ECO off, there could be relatively rare moments when the input level would drive the 150 W rated internal amps to clipping. But when ECO is in auto, at the same -32 to -35 range, the amps could have been clipping much more often because ECO On or Off when in Auto is dependent on the volume setting only, that is, during those short duration peaks when the power demand would be much higher, the amp's clipping point could be reached at output level as low as 30 to 50% (or even lower) of the rated output. Again, different models such as your X8500H may operate differently, but I know that's how my X4400H works, and that's why if I listen to low quality material such as most of Youtube's I wouldn't mind setting ECO to auto, but for high quality lossless contents I would always set ECO to off, even though I use the AVR as prepro only.

Actually I just remember Audioholic.com did test ECO as well and it was on a much newer model.. If my explanation is too clumsy to read or unclear to you, try reading the Audioholics review on the SR8015, surely Gene is a much better writer.

Marantz SR8015 11CH 8K DTS:X Pro AV Receiver Review

The Marantz SR8015 11.2CH Atmos/DTS:X Pro HDMI 2.1 AV receiver is built on a very solid platform with benchmark measured performance. Is this the best AVR for 2020? Read our review to find out.

www.audioholics.com

He did suggest using ECO auto is fine, but in my opinion, it may be fine for contents that have low dynamics but not for action movies or classical music. For contents with high dynamics, if you use ECO auto, you are likely going to experience clipping more often; and if you are sensitive to the resulting distortions, it might explain why you noticed listening fatigue after extended periods at spirited but not overly loud levels.

 

[bo_knows]

I’m posting this in the x8500h thread, but I suppose this applies to all D&M AVRs. I wanted to share my experience with using Eco Modes “Auto” vs. “Off” and see if anyone else has had a similar experience or insights into the mechanics/effects. I am actually using an AVR-A110 and always have defaulted to Eco Auto. I consistently had been noticing listening fatigue after extended periods at spirited but not overly loud levels (well below reference). I did not get the same effect when driving the front three speakers through an Anthem MCA 325 amp at the same levels. I thought either my speakers were presenting too difficult a load (8 ohms with sub 4-ohm dips in spots) to the AVR at these levels resulting in distortion, or engaging the internal amps resulted in a significant hit to the SINAD of the pre-amp section. Just for kicks, I switched Eco mode from “Auto” to “Off”. There was not an immediately noticeable change in sound quality, but things did appear to sound a little cleaner (completely subjective and probably would fail double-blind test) and most importantly the listening fatigue was completely eliminated after extended sessions (wife agrees). I now feel like I can offload the Anthem as originally planned. Does anyone know if Amir has tested Eco mode Auto vs. Off for AVR amp sections? Logic would tell me that “Off” simply equals “Auto” after it switches to the higher rail voltage, but now I’m curious if an active mechanism remains that is adding distortion.

Good to know. I never ever used the eco mode. I'm driving KEF reference 3 speakers in the bi-amp configuration and pure direct mode for stereo listening. KEFs are 4-ohm load and dip down to 3.2 ohms through a wide range in the bass and upper bass region. I don't hear any clipping or any distortion even when I turn up the volume to -10. I sit like 8 feet away and my small HT room is acoustically treated. That being said, I'm still looking for a good 3-channel amp (like yours) but the power supply needs to work in the 120-220V range. The only issue I experience so far with the receiver (that I know of) is the headphone jack switch malfunction. The switch inside would get activated even when I didn't have headphones plugged in. I used some compressed air, blow it out, and that seems to fix it for time being (a bunch of youtube videos on this issue).

 

[Jpert]

I think he did test eco. If not, you can do it yourself. The way it works may not be exactly the same for all models but I suspect it would be at least very similar in principle. So in general, eco in auto would kick in when volume reach around -30, +/- a few dB (I guess..), depending on the model number/year. There is likely a delay (at least that's the case for my X4400H) between it changes from on to off and vice versa.

So if you listen with the volume setting at around -30, in Eco auto, the amp may clip more often if you are listening to contents that have high dynamic range. For example, at say -32 to -35, with ECO off, there could be relatively rare moments when the input level would drive the 150 W rated internal amps to clipping. But when ECO is in auto, at the same -32 to -35 range, the amps could have been clipping much more often because ECO On or Off when in Auto is dependent on the volume setting only, that is, during those short duration peaks when the power demand would be much higher, the amp's clipping point could be reached at output level as low as 30 to 50% (or even lower) of the rated output. Again, different models such as your X8500H may operate differently, but I know that's how my X4400H works, and that's why if I listen to low quality material such as most of Youtube's I wouldn't mind setting ECO to auto, but for high quality lossless contents I would always set ECO to off, even though I use the AVR as prepro only.

Actually I just remember Audioholic.com did test ECO as well and it was on a much newer model.. If my explanation is too clumsy to read or unclear to you, try reading the Audioholics review on the SR8015, surely Gene is a much better writer.

Marantz SR8015 11CH 8K DTS:X Pro AV Receiver Review

The Marantz SR8015 11.2CH Atmos/DTS:X Pro HDMI 2.1 AV receiver is built on a very solid platform with benchmark measured performance. Is this the best AVR for 2020? Read our review to find out.

www.audioholics.com

He did suggest using ECO auto is fine, but in my opinion, it may be fine for contents that have low dynamics but not for action movies or classical music. For contents with high dynamics, if you use ECO auto, you are likely going to experience clipping more often; and if you are sensitive to the resulting distortions, it might explain why you noticed listening fatigue after extended periods at spirited but not overly loud levels.

Peng, thanks for the post—very helpful and I'm glad to hear this wasn't all in my head. I see Gene’s point that the audible effect of Auto should be negligible, at least based on the single channel. The 7-ch 1khz P-sweep doesn’t state whether Eco Auto was engaged (unless I’m missing it), but I’m assuming not due to the sharp knees in most of the channels. I would be curious to see a 7-ch sweep with Eco Auto engaged to infer what the cumulative effect of distortion would be while driving multiple channels (as I’m doing).

 

[sarumbear]

Thanks for the review and measurements! @amirm could you measure the output impedance on the headphone out?

I just saw this post and LOLed.

Here is a multichannel device that is as complicated as it gets and the question is about the output impedance of the stereo headphone amplifier. Not the power, nor the maximum level, but the impedance.

Really?

 

[bo_knows]

Just saw this video on YouTube.

Not sure how correct this info is but here it's is for those that may be interested:

P.S. I notice this is an older video (Oct 22, 2021), and provided information may not be accurate.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Just saw this video on YouTube.

Not sure how correct this info is but here it's is for those that may be interested:

P.S. I notice this is an older video (Oct 22, 2021), and provided information may not be accurate.

View attachment 213566

All known after the AKK factory burnt down and everyone had to switch to ESS.
Was discussed in the various Denon threads here. Afaik no measurements since then have been published, so speculation went rampant about the consequences of the change.

 

[bo_knows]

All known after the AKK factory burnt down and everyone had to switch to ESS.
Was discussed in the various Denon threads here. Afaik no measurements since then have been published, so speculation went rampant about the consequences of the change.

So are you implying that this guy is making stuff up?

Personally, I don't have a horse in this race since I have the original receiver with AKM chip in it.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

So are you implying that this guy is making stuff up?

Personally, I don't have a horse in this race since I have the original receiver with AKM chip in it.

I don’t know where he got the measurements from, except for the X8500 where he quotes ASR. So difficult to say for the other models.

The ESS hump can be solved as described below and some manufacturers have implemented this. So it is still unclear at what extent Denon / Marantz is affected (except the ASR data). One could speculate that as Denon etc usually is quite engineering savvy, that they also used the publicly available fix below.

Of course I might be unaware of the data to the contrary because I don’t keep tight track either for the same reason as you.

How to Fix ESS Hump on SGD1 and LA-QXD1

Finally on this sunny Sunday, I scheduled a time to share the ESS hump repair solution. The following method only verifies the two SONCOZ DACs SGD1 and LA-QXD1, both of them using ES9038Q2M DAC chips, and the others are only referrals. To save you time, first put forward the method and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[bo_knows]

I don’t know where he got the measurements from, except for the X8500 where he quotes ASR. So difficult to say for the other models.

The ESS hump can be solved as described below and some manufacturers have implemented this. So it is still unclear at what extent Denon / Marantz is affected (except the ASR data). One could speculate that as Denon etc usually is quite engineering savvy, that they also used the publicly available fix below.

Of course I might be unaware of the data to the contrary because I don’t keep tight track either for the same reason as you.

How to Fix ESS Hump on SGD1 and LA-QXD1

Finally on this sunny Sunday, I scheduled a time to share the ESS hump repair solution. The following method only verifies the two SONCOZ DACs SGD1 and LA-QXD1, both of them using ES9038Q2M DAC chips, and the others are only referrals. To save you time, first put forward the method and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I thought earlier in the thread, someone asked what chip was used as the replacement for the AK4490 and this reviewer is claiming to be ES9010.
Where he got that info, I have no clue. I checked Denon's JP website and no additional information about the chip was disclosed. Usually, they brag about the chips being used in the DAC section. Not this time...

 

[PianoProdigy]

I’m finally making time to setup my 8500HA tomorrow with external amps for all channels. Any reason why I wouldn’t run a firmware upgrade first before messing with anything or should it not matter? I know I need to set the Denon to preamplifier mode. It will be a 15 channel setup allowing the Denon to choose speakers based on source.