Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review

[ts316]

Don’t use preout mode. To accomplish the same thing, in custom amp assign, set all of them to none. Amir found a problem in full preamp mode where it clips at around .6 which is clearly a problem. We need to wait to hear from Denon on this result but with the 8500 you can just use the custom amp assign for each channel you want to disconnect instead. Interesting question on if it can do 4volts and at what SINAD.

i have read thru all the threads on this issue. i did not see any answer if denon ever fixed the preout mode issue thru firmware or if its even possible.any update on the issue??
im running my 8500 with monolith amps in custom mode with all speakers set to none.i was thinking of trying pre mode.you guys think i would notice a difference??

 

[Oniiz86]

i have read thru all the threads on this issue. i did not see any answer if denon ever fixed the preout mode issue thru firmware or if its even possible.any update on the issue??
im running my 8500 with monolith amps in custom mode with all speakers set to none.i was thinking of trying pre mode.you guys think i would notice a difference??

It was said to be fixed quite a while ago with the July 29th 2020 firmware update, "jdsmoothie" who was an industry insider for D+M products had received confirmation from a Sound United rep that it was indeed fixed, he noted it over at the AVS forums here https://www.avsforum.com/threads/th...ch-flagship-avr-thread.2952552/#post-55570186

 

[ts316]

It was said to be fixed quite a while ago with the July 29th 2020 firmware update, "jdsmoothie" who was an industry insider for D+M products had received confirmation from a Sound United rep that it was indeed fixed, he noted it over at the AVS forums here https://www.avsforum.com/threads/th...ch-flagship-avr-thread.2952552/#post-55570186
View attachment 204618

awesome.
do you think it would make a noticeable difference if i would change my 8500 setting from custom mode to pre mode?also rerun audyssey if needed.

 

[Oniiz86]

awesome.
do you think it would make a noticeable difference if i would change my 8500 setting from custom mode to pre mode?also rerun audyssey if needed.

I believe it is effectively the same thing, running pre-amp mode or custom amp assign mode = none, I don't think it is necessary to rerun Audyssey, should be fine

 

[tifune]

I believe it is effectively the same thing, running pre-amp mode or custom amp assign mode = none, I don't think it is necessary to rerun Audyssey, should be fine

You're correct, they're effectively the same thing. However any change in speaker layout, even if it's same layout but different Amp Assign settings, disables/resets Audyssey to default on my 8500 so one would have to re-run Audyssey. I don't think you can even simply re-apply the corrections to the new "layout", your Audyssey file will switch Amp Assign back.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

You're correct, they're effectively the same thing. However any change in speaker layout, even if it's same layout but different Amp Assign settings, disables/resets Audyssey to default on my 8500 so one would have to re-run Audyssey. I don't think you can even simply re-apply the corrections to the new "layout", your Audyssey file will switch Amp Assign back.

The 200USD Microsoft App MultiEQ X software allows you to do that. Just FYI.

(If spending 200 just for that, unless you don’t use it for anything else is a different debate, which I am not inclined to reopen with this info.)

 

[Z06]

Thanks for this info bigguy. The other day I asked Denon customer service about the DAC in the X8500HA and received this reponse: "As of the moment, we only have a list of the DACs for the 2020 models including the AVR-X8500H. But some of the re-releases of the 2020 models use different DACs and our engineering department has not yet provided us with a list of those changes. Basically we have no DAC information for any model after early 2020. I'd be delighted to provide you with useful information, but we simply do not have it at this time. Please accept my sincere apologies."

I guess this explains why the X8500 HA DAC is omitted from the HA marketing materials. Denon is not being upfront. It would be interesting to have a side by side demo of the X8500H v. X8500HA. So if the ESS ES9010 is inferior to the AK4490, do you think there is an audible difference between the two or just inaudible distortion?

I’m considering upgrading my Denon 4308CI to a AVR X8500HA however after reading that they are no longer including the AKM DACs, considering this is a $6000 receiver I’m thinking that this may be a dealbreaker. I contacted Denon support and received a typical sit on your fence reply indicating that they just did not have that information.

How do I find out the manufacture of the DAC’s in the new Denon X8500HA AVR‘s?

peter

 

[Z06]

I’m considering upgrading my Denon 4308CI to a AVR X8500HA however after reading that they are no longer including the AKM DACs, considering this is a $6000 receiver I’m thinking that this may be a dealbreaker. I contacted Denon support and received a typical sit on your fence reply indicating that they just did not have that information.

How do I find out the manufacture of the DAC’s in the new Denon X8500HA AVR‘s?

peter

*************This is the latest reply from Denon regarding their DAC’s in their flagship receiver…….



Sent from my iPad

On May 23, 2022, at 11:23 AM, Denon Customer Support <[email protected]> wrote:

Denon Accessory Store​ Recently you requested personal assistance from our on-line support center. Below is a summary of your request and our response. We will assume your issue has been resolved if we do not hear from you within 21 days. Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you. To access your question from our support site, click here Subject​ Denon Support - AVR-X8500HA Product Availability Response By Email (Customer Care Team) (05/23/2022 11:23 AM) Hello Peter, Thank you for contacting Denon Support, we value you as a customer and appreciate the opportunity to be of assistance! I understand where you're coming from, but we don't have the information of the DAC installed on the receiver that you are asking. If you have any further questions please feel free to contact us again. Thank you for contacting Denon Customer Support. Have a great day! Warm Regards, Von Erik Denon Customer Service Sound United North America Denon | Marantz | Polk | HEOS | Definitive Technology Customer By Email (Peter McNichol) (05/21/2022 09:45 AM) I am seriously looking at upgrading my Denon 4308CI which was a fabulous AVR. One of the selling features of that AVR was having Burr Brown DACs, so you can understand my concerns when my research has advised me that Denon may have downgraded their DACs from AKM’s to an alternate manufacturer having an inferior product in the AVR I would like to purchase. I would like to own your flagship Denon AVR-X8500HA receiver however I am unwilling to purchase one until I can confirm exactly what t DAC’s are in that receiver. I have difficulty believing that the information is not available for the customer and would appreciate a deep dive in order to answer my question. I would like to thank you in advance for your attention to this request. Peter Sent from my iPad Response By Email (Customer Care Team) (05/17/2022 11:07 AM) Hello Peter, Thank you for contacting Denon Support, we value you as a customer and appreciate the opportunity to be of assistance! We don't have the information for the DAC on AVR-X8500H. If you have any further questions please feel free to contact us again. Thank you for contacting Denon Customer Support. Have a great day! Warm Regards, Von Erik Denon Customer Service Sound United North America Denon | Marantz | Polk | HEOS | Definitive Technology Customer By Email (Peter McNichol) (05/16/2022 10:41 AM) Can you please confirm what DAC’s come with your AVR-X8500HA receiver? Are they the AKM DAC’s? Thanks Peter Sent from my iPad Question Reference # 220516-000728​ Date Created: 05/16/2022 10:41 AM Date Last Updated: 05/23/2022 11:23 AM Status: Waiting on Customer

Sound United 1 Viper Way, Vista 92081

[---002:002235:26689---]​

 

[Ageve]

I understand where you're coming from, but we don't have the information of the DAC installed on the receiver that you are asking.

Translation: It's worse?

Customer support at its best.

I'm also considering the X8500HA, but not without knowing what components are used, and how it performs.

 

[Z06]

I think I’m in denial and not wanting to believe that, but I’m sure you’re correct. If you do find out what DACs are in the flagship receiver please send me a short note.

Peter

 

[tifune]

Translation: It's worse?

Literally nothing in the reply states, or even alludes to, that conclusion.

 

[Ageve]

Literally nothing in the reply states, or even alludes to, that conclusion.

I was being sarcastic.

Manufacturers often tell you when making improvements. It’s good for business. Admitting a downgrade is not.

I might be too sceptical, but it’s my guess until they provide the information asked for.

I’m a long time Denon user, and their products are usually great, but they did downgrade 6700H.

 

[Z06]

Do you suspect we will soon find out the manufacturer of the DAC’s in the 8500HA?

 

[Sal1950]

Do you suspect we will soon find out the manufacturer of the DAC’s in the 8500HA?

Sure, absolutely. One way or another when product hits the market people will post these answers.
Be patience grasshopper.

 

[peng]

Do you suspect we will soon find out the manufacturer of the DAC’s in the 8500HA?

I suspect you have to wait until someone bought one, who is willing to open it up to locate the dac board, and post photos that show the ICs. Someone has done that with the AV8805A so we know it has the ES9010K2M that is manufactured by ESS Technology. Until someone does the same with the 8500HA, I would guess it also has the same chip, but that's purely based on the fact that the same dac chips are used in the AV8805 and AVR-X8500H.

 

[Z06]

Is it the forums general opinion that the move to the ES DAC’s is that this is an inferior DAC.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Is it the forums general opinion that the move to the ES DAC’s is that this is an inferior DAC.

It depends….

As you can see in some of the recently measured DACs eg SMLS DO100 and others, that some engineers have found ways to compensate for the ESS „IMD hump“ (shortcomings) and achieve record values. However other manufacturers have shown less stellar engineering eg Musetec DA005 and were unable to work around the ESS hump.

So the question with Denon is, into which category do they fall after the forced switch over to ESS - did they compensate for the ESS shortcomings or not. Currently no up-to-date measurements exists for the Denon with the ESS and that leaves some uncertainty.

If someone sends in a Denon with ESS to be measured this would create clarity.

 

[Sal1950]

Is it the forums general opinion that the move to the ES DAC’s is that this is an inferior DAC.

You know what the ole saying is about opinions.

If someone sends in a Denon with ESS to be measured this would create clarity.

Bottom line is that's what it's going to take.
Until that actually happens, all else is just conjecture.
Time will tell.

 

[peng]

It depends….

As you can see in some of the recently measured DACs eg SMLS DO100 and others, that some engineers have found ways to compensate for the ESS „IMD hump“ (shortcomings) and achieve record values. However other manufacturers have shown less stellar engineering eg Musetec DA005 and were unable to work around the ESS hump.

So the question with Denon is, into which category do they fall after the forced switch over to ESS - did they compensate for the ESS shortcomings or not. Currently no up-to-date measurements exists for the Denon with the ESS and that leaves some uncertainty.

If someone sends in a Denon with ESS to be measured this would create clarity.

Amir did review a second AV8805A that supposedly had the ES9010k2M. Bench performance did not seem to have suffered but that could have been because even the AV8805A that has the originally used AK4490 did not measure as good as Denon AVRs to begin with. So in that case the DAC might not have been the bottleneck anyway. We are going to have to wait for someone to send an AVR-X8500HA (even then, we would have to assume, or find out for sure if it in fact has the ESS chip) in for a direct comparison, unfortunately.

 

[Dj7675]

Amir did review a second AV8805A that supposedly had the ES9010k2M. Bench performance did not seem to have suffered but that could have been because even the AV8805A that has the originally used AK4490 did not measure as good as Denon AVRs to begin with. So in that case the DAC might not have been the bottleneck anyway. We are going to have to wait for someone to send an AVR-X8500HA (even then, we would have to assume, or find out for sure if it in fact has the ESS chip) in for a direct comparison, unfortunately.

Hopefully at some point, anyone with any of the models that have substituted DAC’s can be retested by @amirm to see what kind of impact it has. Denon has many excellent reviews here, but none of them have the substituted DACs so we have no idea of the impact of the change. These very good results lead people to assume they get the same performance as in the past reviews which seems unlikely but until someone sends one of the units in to retest, there will be no way to know. Still hoping at least one of these units will get retested.