I think Amir is as always, being impartial, conservative, and restrained.......no golfing panther because it is sold as an AVR so the so called monolithic designed/layout power amps failed the test relative to its little brothers. By the way, it would have rank a little higher if that one channel did not do so bad, that is really strange that deserves an explanation from Denon.
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Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
I think Amir is as always, being impartial, conservative, and restrained.......no golfing panther because it is sold as an AVR so the so called monolithic designed/layout power amps failed the test relative to its little brothers. By the way, it would have rank a little higher if that one channel did not do so bad, that is really strange that deserves an explanation from Denon.
Colonel7
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Nice offering. I'd be interested to see how Denon's 5.2 and 7.2 offerings fare, especially in terms of HDMI in which continues to be a bugbear (and how I'd use it). Are any of these more entry level units in the queue?
At least the dac doesn't limit everything in those, it's still "good dongle" range, but acceptable now. Can't expect miracles with the amp sections on AVR i think.
On the new series the PR talks say they now differantiate only on functionalities and channels. Im curious how the lowest models x2700h would fare.
On the new series the PR talks say they now differantiate only on functionalities and channels. Im curious how the lowest models x2700h would fare.
Thats right there are still quite a few firmware problems, not Emotiva levels of issues but still a long way to go to reach final/D&M standards. I had an AVP and especially considering its age it was an excellent prepro IMHO although did not sound anywhere near as good as the AV40 or Datasat RS20I I had briefly. Would love to see the AVP reviewed, is the only prepro I have had with an utterly silent noise floor.
I'm not sure Lyngdorf will measure well either, a chap on AVS measured the MP50 vs HTP-1, Storm and Trinnov. The results were not very good and overall the HTP-1 performed best. I'm not certain of Room Perfect either, most of the comparisons preferring it to Dirac seem to hinge on the user not understanding Dirac curves.
martijn86
Active Member
I see the cursor in these screen shots is always set to 22.05 Khz for CD quality content but in an AVR, 24 Khz makes a lot more sense. 48 Khz is the standard sampling rate for video (DVD, DVB etc).Filter has good attenuation:
Once I first saw Gene’s comments on AH about the improved performance of reassigning amps to disconnect them from the L/R, and the nice increase in performance it made sense that the X8500 might possible be very good as well since you could select which amps you want to disconnect. A few random thoughts:I might have told you (or someone else) the X8500H was properly the best prepro currently made by D+M, that was quite a while ago, shortly after the AV8805 and the AVR-X3600H (iirc) were tested. I always thought so because it has the identical signal path to the AV8805, except it does not have the balanced circuitry and the HDAM (the one that Amir called "distortion factory" (or something like that, it made me laugh uncontrollably..)
So I guess if Marantz's would make their next flagship prepro the option to bypass the HDAMs via the best available switch or relays, it could potentially dethrone the Denon and go all the way to the left of the SINAD chart.Just kidding, not based on cct analysis or any facts!
Now all you need is a 3 channel power amp that have SINAD>105 dB for the LCR. Congrats for landing the best D+M prepro for under $3K (if I remember right), and many thanks for sending it in.
-If you shop around you can get an open box between $2700 and $2999 (full 3 year warranty( At this price, it is a really good value.
-As already mentioned it has 15 speaker outputs but only processes 13 channels. You can hook up all 15 speakers and it will automatically switch speaker layouts based on if you have DTSX/Atmos/Auro 3D.
-DTSX Pro is coming in the fall which I look forward to.
-The only model in the Denon line where you can disconnect some amps and use the others. I will be getting a 3 channel amp for the L/C/R. With the other Denon models you have to go in full preamp mode and can’t use any of the internal amps for surrounds/atmos if you want the best performance for the L/C/R.
-Audyssey XT32 with the use of the app works well. I have had Dirac with the NAD T758 V3 which also worked well. After I upgraded my speakers to Revel M106 for the L/C/R and have a combination of S16/M16/M55xc I limit correction from 500-1K. If you don’t correct the full frequency, not sure I could tell the difference.
-Zero software issues. It just works. I don’t think the value of this can be overstated. When reading through Emotiva, or even the new Arcam/JBL threads, that just is not the case. When I sit down to watch a movie/tv the last thing I want is to troubleshoot an “issue”.
-I find it amazing that the Denon measures so much better than the Marantz 8805 and with the Denon you get 13 channels of amplification. I would expect 8500 sales to do even better after this review for those looking for a receiver or AV Processor.
-The 8500 is staying in the line as the 8500A which will have the same 8k input (1) as the other new Denons. Owners of the 8500 can also send in their units to get upgraded for a fee (cost hasn’t been announced yet but guesses seem to be $300-$400).
-A bit disappointed the amps didn’t measure a little better.
@amirm Denon knows about the full preamp mode you ran into? Do you think they will get back to you on that? I have heard of people using that mode which would be a shame if not working properly. It isn’t needed with this unit since you can disconnect channels individually, but it is there and is used by some people.
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Looks like 33 ohms. The X8500H has its own opamp output stage for the headphones as does the X6X00H series. Lesser models take the headphone output from the L/R speaker outputs and thus a have higher output impedance - it appears 470 ohms is typical.
I updated my own ranking table sorted by SINAD based on 2 V unbalanced or 4 V balanced. In order to include a Yamaha and a NAD AVRs I have to go with the top 21 in my table. As usual, I can't guarantee complete accuracy, for accurate result please refer to the individual ASR reviews.
Also, to save space I only include SINAD for the worse channel, with a few minor exceptions.
Also, to save space I only include SINAD for the worse channel, with a few minor exceptions.
It seems that those little nice features/treatments on the power amp section such as monolith arrangements, better power supplies such as the use of toroidal, copper foil wrap/extra shielding E-I core transformers, better spec storage caps, better input stage etc. etc.., would hardly make a significant difference for the internal amps. Still if you compare the X8500H, and the cheapest X3500H (that has pre-outs) to some of the separate power amps measured on ASR including Outlaw, Emotivas and even some much more expensive power or integrated amps, none of them could break through the 90 dB mark, except a few such as the Hypex based amps and the AHB2. The most impressive one is the Yamaha WX-A50, barely made it to 90 dB in Ch1 only, and IMD wasn't that good.
It probably wasn't realistic to expect better, but it didn't stop me
I was hoping for 90+. You are right of course that they still do quite well when compared to many of the common seperate multichannel amps. With running 13 channels, I think it may be asking a bit much for it to power all 13 channels running the revel speakers. I will most likely get an NC252 based amp for L/C/R duty.studiocity
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Everyone Is excited about the new HDMI 2.1 8k upgrade. just know that if it is the same circuits and ic’s and firmware as the 2020 line up 8k release, that those do not do the 1080p To 4k upscaling very well on any of the inputs. picture is soft and slightly reduced color fidelity and resolution, compared to the current x8500h without any 8k capability. I have no measurement to prove this, other than watching it for hours and making every possible adjustment several times, but the upscale to 4K from 1080p on the x6700h, was not good compared to the current x8500h, the difference is easily and totally visible by anyone. so don’t get too excited yet about the 2.1 upgrade until this is tested, or if you’re willing to accept a softer picture from your dish, direct tv, Comcast set top box.
martijn86
Active Member
I prefer a little softness when upscaling is concerned. It is still guesswork, although they get better at it with time. Upscaled footage often looks processed with some added artificial sharpening on top. If softer means trying less hard to guess and thus hiding the fact that there is any processing at work may be my preferred method.
studiocity
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doesnt look processed on the current x8500h. Looks processed for sure on the x6700h.
If someone had a working example of an SR805 that'd be an interesting receiver to see reviewed. Onkyo was holding nothing back at that time. The SR805 was also made in Japan.
Michael YYZ
Member
I have the Service Manual for the AVR-4308CI. See attached for yourself. R236 and R238 are in series on the left channel and R237 and R239 are on the right channel, on the headphone output. I do not know about the X8500H.
Most AVRs do not provide special amplification for headphones. They just insert resistors in series after the power amplification stage of the AVR, so one does not blow out one’s headphones and ears. This is okay as long as the headphones have constant impedance across the frequency range, or they have a very high impedance. But such headphones are rare. Otherwise, if the 8:1 impedance ratio rule of thumb is not respected, the sound from the headphones may become ‘coloured’.
This is the reason why it is generally recommended not to use the headphone output in an AVR. Instead, one should get a dedicated headphone amplifier.
Most AVRs do not provide special amplification for headphones. They just insert resistors in series after the power amplification stage of the AVR, so one does not blow out one’s headphones and ears. This is okay as long as the headphones have constant impedance across the frequency range, or they have a very high impedance. But such headphones are rare. Otherwise, if the 8:1 impedance ratio rule of thumb is not respected, the sound from the headphones may become ‘coloured’.
This is the reason why it is generally recommended not to use the headphone output in an AVR. Instead, one should get a dedicated headphone amplifier.
Michael YYZ
Member
See my post above. I don’t know about the X8500H. You’d have to get the Service Manual for it and study the schematics.
Michael YYZ
Member
The output impedance and the input impedance together create a voltage divisor. The output impedance must be as small as possible when related to the input impedance so the influence of the input impedance, which is generally variable with the frequency, is minimized. Otherwise, the voltage drop across the headphones is dependent on the frequency, which will ‘colour’ the sound. A rule of thumb suggests that the ratio of the output impedance to the input impedance should be at least 8:1.
The X8500H and X6700H use opamps (NJM4556A) to drive their headphone outputs.
https://www.njr.com/electronic_device/PDF/NJM4556A_E.pdf
The output impedance appears set by three 100 ohm resistors in parallel resulting in a resistance of 33 ohms. Using three resistors in parallel results in a tighter tolerance and better matching between the two channels.
