Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review

[peng]

Nice answer as always! In my case, I send all the frequencies below 80Hz to the subwoofer which helps with the distortion of my KEF R500 woofers and load on AVR. Unfortunately, KEFs impedance drops down to 3.8 ohms between 120-160Hz and AVR has to work with that load. Noise in my room is around 34dB average SPL C weighted / 26 dB SPL A-weighted. I'm going to add some mass-loaded vinyl to cover my windows to see if I can bring it down a bit.

I think anyone who listen loud with the R500 really should at least use an online calculator to estimate the actual power need. It is not the 3.8 Ohm in a narrow range you need to worry about, but the fact that it stays below or at about 5 Ohms in a wide range 80-1000 Hz, that's more than 3 octaves. The saving grace is, the phase angles is that range is benign. Even the X4700H can drive them, depending on distance and spl listened to. Regardless, an external fan should be used imo.

Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers

Edit: As bigguyca said, I should have include the following link, please read before using the Crown calculator.
How Much Amplifier Power | Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers

 

[AdamG]

Anyone here using front wide channels? My room is sort of narrow (14.8') has 9' ceilings and is kinda 31' deep except for a bar, high top table and chairs behind the MLP. Right now I am using a 5.2.4 configuration in my townhouse and plan to continue as rear surrounds will be tough with the traffic area behind the MLP and the high top table and I only have one row of seating so middle heights are not really of use for me. Current surround position is slated to be slightly behind the MLP on the sides and the tweeters about 8" above seated ear height.

I ran cabling to accommodate front wides, a center height (VoG position over MLP) and also in case I ever wanted to try side and rear surrounds down the road. I plan to buy an X8500 soon so I have the capability to add channels, and am specifically considering the VoG and front wides but am not sure how much mileage I'll get of either in my space.

Thoughts? And thanks.

Hi tparm,

I run a 9.2.6 arrangement. All the Bed channels are Tower Speakers. In 90% of the content I prefer Wides rather than Top middle/ surround heights. Using Wides I lose the middle height channel set. My wides are pretty large tower speakers with dual 8” woofers. My thinking is the preference may be influenced by the speaker type of trade off. My surround heights are small surround type speakers. So I’m trading for a much larger and more spl capable speaker. If the speakers were all the same, my preference might shift. JMHO.

 

[bo_knows]

I think anyone who listen loud with the R500 really should at least use an online calculator to estimate the actual power need. It is not the 3.8 Ohm in a narrow range you need to worry about, but the fact that it stays below or at about 5 Ohms in a wide range 80-1000 Hz, that's more than 3 octaves. The saving grace is, the phase angles is that range is benign. Even the X4700H can drive them, depending on distance and spl listened to. Regardless, an external fan should be used imo.

Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers

Wow, you are right! Hmmm, maybe I do need to spring myself for the Monoprice Monolith amp.
Anyway, since one has to use RCA to XLR cable conversion to run purifi amp, I don't think they will see the Amir's measured Sinad.
I think it would be probably around the 92-96 range vs Denon's 85-87. Like you said, in a normal room, the noise will dominate.
In the listening condition where 20-60 watts of power is used, I would think in my environment, it would be very hard for me to hear a major difference. I tried a little test with my headphones (Sennheiser HD660) between the receiver and my Sony TA-E90ES preamplifier output.
Sony was feed with the analog signal from the OPPO UDP-203 where Denon was feed with a digital HDMI connection. I was able to swap headphones really quickly and still didn't hear any major differences. If anything, I thought Denon was a little brighter and more extended in highs.
I tried to level match as best as I could with my ears (I'm sure I was a little off). Bottom line is, IMHO this is a great AVR.

 

[peng]

Wow, you are right! Hmmm, maybe I do need to spring myself for the Monoprice Monolith amp.
Anyway, since one has to use RCA to XLR cable conversion to run purifi amp, I don't think they will see the Amir's measured Sinad.
I think it would be probably around the 92-96 range vs Denon's 85-87. Like you said, in a normal room, the noise will dominate.
In the listening condition where 20-60 watts of power is used, I would think in my environment, it would be very hard for me to hear a major difference. I tried a little test with my headphones (Sennheiser HD660) between the receiver and my Sony TA-E90ES preamplifier output.
Sony was feed with the analog signal from the OPPO UDP-203 where Denon was feed with a digital HDMI connection. I was able to swap headphones really quickly and still didn't hear any major differences. If anything, I thought Denon was a little brighter and more extended in highs.
I tried to level match as best as I could with my ears (I'm sure I was a little off). Bottom line is, IMHO this is a great AVR.

Amir did include the curve of SINAD vs output voltage so you should be able to project the SINAD for when pairing your X8500 with Purifi amps. With the internal amps disconnected, I think you will get at least 97 dB SINAD with pre out at 2.25 V that will drive the Purifi to output >500 W into 4 Ohms. Even at 2 V, as Amir noted, at that level there was almost no degradation. At 2 V pre out, the Purifi would be driving 400 W into 4 Ohms. That's the beauty of the AVR-X8500, you can disconnect whatever channel amp you want, without using the full pre amp mode.

 

[patoulol]

the question: he will hear a difference by adding the "purifi"?

AVR-X8500 is already a big baby

 

[peng]

the question: he will hear a difference by adding the "purifi"?

AVR-X8500 is already a big baby

My guess is, no, not unless he pushes the 8500 too close to its clipping point. If he did, then he might, but would still depend on the contents, because people typically don't need more than a few watts average but could peak to hundreds of watts depending on a few things.

 

[bo_knows]

Amir did include the curve of SINAD vs output voltage so you should be able to project the SINAD for when pairing your X8500 with Purifi amps. With the internal amps disconnected, I think you will get at least 97 dB SINAD with pre out at 2.25 V that will drive the Purifi to output >500 W into 4 Ohms. Even at 2 V, as Amir noted, at that level there was almost no degradation. At 2 V pre out, the Purifi would be driving 400 W into 4 Ohms. That's the beauty of the AVR-X8500, you can disconnect whatever channel amp you want, without using the full pre amp mode.



View attachment 128631

So what you are saying is that I or anyone else shouldn't dismiss purifi amp even if we need to use RCA to XLR conversion cables?

 

[patoulol]

My guess is, no, not unless he pushes the 8500 too close to its clipping point. If he did, then he might, but would still depend on the contents, because people typically don't need more than a few watts average but could peak to hundreds of watts depending on a few things.

in fact, in 70% of situations a simple x3700 was sufficient. But audiophiles always prefer to look for more, better, again and again. $$

and me too

 

[peng]

So what you are saying is that I or anyone else shouldn't dismiss purifi amp even if we need to use RCA to XLR conversion cables?

Yes that would be my opinion, based on calculations. Take a look of it this way:

- The voltage gain of the X8500H's internal amp is about 29 dB (a little less I think..)
- The Purifi amp's gain is about 26 dB (a little less iirc..)

So the difference in gain is 3 dB and that means at the same volume position, the Purifi amp will output half that of the Denon's internal amp's. You will have to either re-run Audyssey, or manually increase the level settings by about 3 dB.

Once level matched, all will be good, except the pre out voltage will be 3 dB higher than that of the other channels that are using the internal amps.
That does not matter much because as shown in the SINAD vs pre out voltage, the X8500H has almost no degradation when the pre out voltage increases to 2 V and beyond.

It will be the same even if you use a separate preamp processor, except in this case the Purifi amp will benefit from the balance outputs that will have 2X the voltage of the unbalance outputs. Many other power amps (such Marantz, Yamaha's, and Bryston's etc.) won't benefit from the 2X balanced output voltage the same way the Purifi's will, because their gains are 6 dB lower for balanced inputs.

 

[oupee]

in fact, in 70% of situations a simple x3700 was sufficient. But audiophiles always prefer to look for more, better, again and again. $$

and me too

The biggest madness I've seen here so far is this:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ht-our-current-setups.564/page-30#post-752967

Complete preout mode in such a small space. I would still understand if there was a preout L / R front but this whole has zero benefit. With the 8500, an external amplifier will only benefit in extreme cases, such as a large room or extremely insensitive speakers.

 

[bo_knows]

I think anyone who listen loud with the R500 really should at least use an online calculator to estimate the actual power need. It is not the 3.8 Ohm in a narrow range you need to worry about, but the fact that it stays below or at about 5 Ohms in a wide range 80-1000 Hz, that's more than 3 octaves. The saving grace is, the phase angles is that range is benign. Even the X4700H can drive them, depending on distance and spl listened to. Regardless, an external fan should be used imo.

Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers

 

[bo_knows]

View attachment 128653

With 15dB amplifier headroom, it comes out to be 125 Watts. Am I doing this right?

 

[peng]

View attachment 128653

Wow, if you do want to listen at truly reference level, that is 85 dB based on one speaker and allow for 20 dB headroom for the peaks of the contents (THX standard), your R500 is not going to do very well as their power handling specs seem to be only 150 W.

Just to take some load off the AVR, may be a 2 or 3 channel power amp rated up to 300 W 8 Ohms will do it.

 

[bo_knows]

Wow, if you do want to listen at truly reference level, that is 85 dB based on one speaker and allow for 20 dB headroom for the peaks of the contents (THX standard), your R500 is not going to do very well as their power handling specs seem to be only 150 W.

Just to take some load off the AVR, may be a 2 or 3 channel power amp rated up to 300 W 8 Ohms will do it.

Thanks, I can care less for THX standard, wife would kill me before I reach those levels (if my speakers can handle those SPLs) plus I already have mild tinnitus. All these scenarios would be ONLY for two-channel listening with an average of 85 dB SPL (peaks at 100 dB SPL maybe).
So monoprice monolith will not cut it, right? They will only provide an extra 50Watss in 8 ohms in comparison to Denon.

 

[bo_knows]

Wow, if you do want to listen at truly reference level, that is 85 dB based on one speaker and allow for 20 dB headroom for the peaks of the contents (THX standard), your R500 is not going to do very well as their power handling specs seem to be only 150 W.

Just to take some load off the AVR, may be a 2 or 3 channel power amp rated up to 300 W 8 Ohms will do it.

Please feel free to give me some amp suggestions that you think would work but not too expensive. Thanks!
Buckeye amps?
NC502MP
- 2x450w @ 2ohm
- 2x500w @ 4ohm
- 2x350w @ 8ohm

 

[peng]

Please feel free to give me some amp suggestions that you think would work but not too expensive. Thanks!
Buckeye amps?
NC502MP
- 2x450w @ 2ohm
- 2x500w @ 4ohm
- 2x350w @ 8ohm

The Monolith should be fine, but I prefer either the NC502MP for class D or the Anthem MCA225 if you prefer class AB, based on price (not too expensive) and weight. The Mono are too heavy imo for no practical value. They likely would do better in terms of literally continuous output, but we don't listen to tones. Music sound quality could benefit from higher short term output ratings but not the so called "continuous" rating. By the way, most of the time when reviewer such as S&V, HTHI, Audioholics use the term "continuous" in their bench tests, they just meant continuous sine wave, but not continuous in terms of time for more than may be a few minutes at the most. The likes of Krell, McIntosh are the one who may actually mean "continuous" literally.

I suggest you read the detailed (fine prints) specs of the NC502MP and the MCA325.

 

[bo_knows]

The Monolith should be fine, but I prefer either the NC502MP for class D or the Anthem MCA325 if you prefer class AB, based on price (not too expensive) and weight. The Mono are too heavy imo for no practical value. They likely would do better in terms of literally continuous output, but we don't listen to tones. Music sound quality could benefit from higher short term output ratings but not the so called "continuous" rating. By the way, most of the time when reviewer such as S&V, HTHI, Audioholics use the term "continuous" in their bench tests, they just meant continuous sine wave, but not continuous in terms of time for more than may be a few minutes at the most. The likes of Krell, McIntosh are the one who may actually mean "continuous" literally.

I suggest you read the detailed (fine prints) specs of the NC502MP and the MCA325.

Awesome, thank you!

 

[peng]

Awesome, thank you!

Just want to be clear, the Monolith should be fine for your power need. I just don't like its weight but if that is not an issue for you then I think it is an excellent choice.

 

[bo_knows]

Just want to be clear, the Monolith should be fine for your power need. I just don't like its weight but if that is not an issue for you then I think it is an excellent choice.

It looks like MCA-225 almost doubles the power from 8 to 4 ohms. The difference in weight is only 8 lbs between 2 channel models (Monolith being heavier but Anthem being longer). On used marked, I could get Anthem for $1400 vs the new Monolith for $1100 (free shipping).
Buckeye amp (NC502MP) beats them both in power, size, and $. I just don't have any experience with class D sound besides what comes inside the subwoofer(s).

 

[bigguyca]

I think anyone who listen loud with the R500 really should at least use an online calculator to estimate the actual power need. It is not the 3.8 Ohm in a narrow range you need to worry about, but the fact that it stays below or at about 5 Ohms in a wide range 80-1000 Hz, that's more than 3 octaves. The saving grace is, the phase angles is that range is benign. Even the X4700H can drive them, depending on distance and spl listened to. Regardless, an external fan should be used imo.

Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers

Why are you recommending this calculator without adjustments?

As Crown clearly states in the link below the calculator you are recommending is for:

"The calculations discussed here apply to anechoic or outdoor conditions."

How Much Amplifier Power | Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers

Crown is saying that the power requirements will be overstated by 6dB when the usage case indoors. 6dB means the calculator gives answers that are four times too large indoor/residential venues. 6dB is a factor or 4x for power.

This means that for example, if the calculator says that 100W are required then 25W would be required indoors. If 24W are required outdoors then 6W would be required indoors. This means that you take the output of the calculator you are recommending and divide by 4.

If you are going to recommend the Crown calculator then it would be good to include this adjustment information as well or the user will obtain answers that are far from accurate.