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Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review

Anterantz

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Hmm well those were the biggest things I could think of that would normally have a significant impact on sound quality, and it seems like you have most of that stuff sorted out pretty well.....

-8 MV is fairly loud but if your room is small, I would think the AVR should have enough power especially in 2 channel.

In case you haven't seen it, here are some measurements on your speakers:
Monitor Audio Gold 100
Looks like something a little odd going on around crossover?

Maybe it wouldn't hurt to try a good 2/3 channel external amp? With the right choice, you could gain more power and a higher SINAD to see if that makes a difference? I'm saying this because it seems like you've covered all the other bases.

The challenge I see here is the X8500 is -103 dB from pre-outs so many amps are not this good. Also, the X8500 does have decent power so we need an amp with -103 dB or better and A LOT of power to be in improvement. I'm not sure what the best choice would be here.....NC500 has the power but is only -95 dB and I'd hate to not match or exceed the Denon's signal. NC400 would match up but doesn't have much more power if any.

Maybe Purifi or Benchmark?
Hello bear, the audio monitor series is the gx that I think was something better on the bbc if I remember correctly .. I don't need a lot of power and the 8500h handles my 9 channels without problems both in cinema and in music and I usually listen at 90db while I see a movie ... the effort to put a stage is only to see if I improve in the two channels section!
 

ZinMe

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There is nothing to compare between 8015 and 8500H. Well almost.
8015 is a 6700H equal model , while 8500H is on another league .
I wouldn't compare them .

Actually after seeing the separate post on the 8015 measurements provided by Marantz, and the review from Audioholics (including their youtube comparison of the x8500h vs the 8015, I would really like to see the comparison on ASR. The rounded pre-amp output SNR was reported at -95db, which is still below the x8500h, but it's pretty good, but I'm not sure there is an apples to apples comparison of the amplifier at higher voltage (ie. 3 or 4volts vs 1 volt), but the Audioholics review also implied -95db on the amplifier measurements at the lower voltage. I'm a novice at understanding these measurements, so if I'm missing the apples to apples comparison, it would be great to learn.

BTW, I heard the x8500h powering a pair of Totem Tribe III on wall speakers (4 ohm, 89dB) running in pure direct mode from a CD player, and it sounded fantastic to me. I'm trying to understand if anything would be better overall for music in particular, but also for movies. My media cabinet is tight, and would require some cut-outs to the back to accommodate the h8500h whereas the shorter depth of the marantz 8015 would fit better. I worry about Marantz's history with high end roll-off, higher distortion and slow filtering, and the effect that has on imaging/soundstage. The Totems had incredible imaging/soundstage with the h8500h and I'll like to keep that. But if those limitations have been solved in the 8015, it would solve this space issue I have.
 
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Andysu

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Anyone know what is the HDMI board assembly part number for a new board.
Thank you.
 

Bear123

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BTW, I heard the x8500h powering a pair of Totem Tribe III on wall speakers (4 ohm, 89dB) running in pure direct mode from a CD player, and it sounded fantastic to me. I'm trying to understand if anything would be better overall for music in particular, but also for movies.
The answer would be yes. Don't use pure direct, use well placed dual subs, and keep Audyssey room correction engaged, at least below Schroeder. Sound quality on music will be much better. Would a different AVR or processor sound significantly better? Probably not.

Pure Direct= turn off things that actually provide dramatic improvements in sound quality(bass management, eq).
 

Anterantz

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The answer would be yes. Don't use pure direct, use well placed dual subs, and keep Audyssey room correction engaged, at least below Schroeder. Sound quality on music will be much better. Would a different AVR or processor sound significantly better? Probably not.

Pure Direct= turn off things that actually provide dramatic improvements in sound quality(bass management, eq).
I have totally used pure direct several times and it is not my sound as I like a live sound with clear highs! I have been modifying the editor curve in the app for several days and the sound in two channels has improved as I never imagined, I love my 8500h in both plots ... as soon as Audyssey improves the editor app a little more it will talk about you to you with other corrections .
 

bo_knows

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I have totally used pure direct several times and it is not my sound as I like a live sound with clear highs! I have been modifying the editor curve in the app for several days and the sound in two channels has improved as I never imagined, I love my 8500h in both plots ... as soon as Audyssey improves the editor app a little more it will talk about you to you with other corrections .
I thought you were getting NAD...just kidding :D
 

bigguyca

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Actually after seeing the separate post on the 8015 measurements provided by Marantz, and the review from Audioholics (including their youtube comparison of the x8500h vs the 8015, I would really like to see the comparison on ASR. The rounded pre-amp output SNR was reported at -95db, which is still below the x8500h, but it's pretty good, but I'm not sure there is an apples to apples comparison of the amplifier at higher voltage (ie. 3 or 4volts vs 1 volt), but the Audioholics review also implied -95db on the amplifier measurements at the lower voltage. I'm a novice at understanding these measurements, so if I'm missing the apples to apples comparison, it would be great to learn.

BTW, I heard the x8500h powering a pair of Totem Tribe III on wall speakers (4 ohm, 89dB) running in pure direct mode from a CD player, and it sounded fantastic to me. I'm trying to understand if anything would be better overall for music in particular, but also for movies. My media cabinet is tight, and would require some cut-outs to the back to accommodate the h8500h whereas the shorter depth of the marantz 8015 would fit better. I worry about Marantz's history with high end roll-off, higher distortion and slow filtering, and the effect that has on imaging/soundstage. The Totems had incredible imaging/soundstage with the h8500h and I'll like to keep that. But if those limitations have been solved in the 8015, it would solve this space issue I have.


Reviewing the Audioholics results that looks about right. The HDAM's in the SR8015, while likely offering improved performance due to active current sources replacing resister-based current sources, will still add noise and distortion to what is a circuit that already works well in the Denon X6700H, which is the Denon equivalent to the SR8015.

What are the Denon/Marantz test conditions?

Concerning the Marantz measurements: The D/M measurements always seem to be better than independent measurements such as Amir's. In addition to better SINAD's, the frequency vs. distortion graph in the D/M results always seems to have less noise in the lower frequencies and less distortion in higher order distortion products. D/M doesn't document their test conditions as far a I can tell.

Based the results that D/M provides it is reasonable to wonder if Marantz uses A-weighting of the results, I believe Amir use flat weighting. A-weighting would drastically reduce the low frequency noise, for example at 60Hz and its multiples, from the power supply, and also the higher-order distortion products that are included in the SINAD.
 
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Bear123

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I have totally used pure direct several times and it is not my sound as I like a live sound with clear highs! I have been modifying the editor curve in the app for several days and the sound in two channels has improved as I never imagined, I love my 8500h in both plots ... as soon as Audyssey improves the editor app a little more it will talk about you to you with other corrections .

I edited the default Audyssey curve for the first time a couple of days ago(other than limiting correction range). My surround speakers were a bit too forward in the treble for my liking, which isn't surprising based on their spins. I used the app to correct them full range with a gradual declining response out to 10K. They ended up matching very very closely to my LCR, so I'm happy with the performance of Audyssey and the app. Also dialed in a 5 dB boost down near 20 Hz on my subs. REW measurements of both changes showed a very good result that closely matched the target. Only thing I may do is rerun Audyssey with a bigger emphasis on optimizing the MLP.
 

ZinMe

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Would a different AVR or processor sound significantly better? Probably not.
Would a x4700h or x6700h set for pre-amp only with the amplifier section disconnected with Arcam or Rotel power amplifier(s) yield a better result than the x8500h alone?
 

ZinMe

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The answer would be yes. Don't use pure direct, use well placed dual subs, and keep Audyssey room correction engaged, at least below Schroeder. Sound quality on music will be much better. Would a different AVR or processor sound significantly better? Probably not.

Pure Direct= turn off things that actually provide dramatic improvements in sound quality(bass management, eq).

That is how the dealer configured the demo, so next time I'll know to change it, but my experience with my 10 yr old Pioneer SC-37 was that pure direct was much better. After a lot of time and advice on configuring/setting it with MCACC, all the timing, crossovers, frequency EQ, processing and bass management only muddied up the sound as far as I'm concerned in every mode (stereo, music, 5.1, LRC only etc...) Only with pure direct did I get cohere, clear imaging and stage presence, and detail. I have Hi/Lo inputs for my sub as well as LFE, and the best was pure direct with the hi/lo. Maybe my configuration skills are poor or the AVR isn't so good. We'll see how it goes with the new AVR.
 

Anterantz

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I thought you were getting NAD...just kidding :D
It has been a constant struggle in my head to want to try the nad t778 but I prefer the reliability of denon and right now I am delighted with how it sounds in both plots .. if audyssey gets the batteries a little and improves the app we will have a sound of 10 .. surely the nad sounds a little better from what I hear and read in the revieuw but this 8500h is not far behind.
 

Bear123

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Would a x4700h or x6700h set for pre-amp only with the amplifier section disconnected with Arcam or Rotel power amplifier(s) yield a better result than the x8500h alone?
Only under two, ok, maybe three, conditions:
1) you need more power than the X8500 can provide
2) the amps you use provide more power than the x8500
3) the amps you use don't audibly degrade the signal

Edit: darn.....
4)your speakers can handle more power than the X8500 can provide without heavy distortion/compression
 

Anterantz

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Only under two, ok, maybe three, conditions:
1) you need more power than the X8500 can provide
2) the amps you use provide more power than the x8500
3) the amps you use don't audibly degrade the signal

Edit: darn.....
4)your speakers can handle more power than the X8500 can provide without heavy distortion/compression
I have two questions now that we are talking about energy ... the green consumption bar that in my case does not exceed half does it mean that the 8500h still has reserves to spare? Is that bar reliable? I have all the speakers in small and 80hz cut and second question if the denon has more power than the stage that you connect but your boxes do not need so many watts but the stage has a lower distortion, better if you would not notice any advantage?
 

peng

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as soon as Audyssey improves the editor app a little more it will talk about you to you with other corrections .

While waiting, download Radbudssey and use it. You will be amazed with the results you can get that you may never be able to get using fingers or stylus pens.

Release graphing release (fixed) · ratbuddy/ratbuddyssey · GitHub

Audyssey House Curve Revisited... - General Home Theatre Discussion - StereoNET Asia

There may be other versions but I know ratbuddyssey_0.2.1 works well enough for me.

With the help of this UI, you can flatten the response below Schroeder quickly and easily and then it is up to you to custom it to your preference, such as tilt it up from say 100 Hz to 10 Hz.
 

Anterantz

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While waiting, download Radbudssey and use it. You will be amazed with the results you can get that you may never be able to get using fingers or stylus pens.

Release graphing release (fixed) · ratbuddy/ratbuddyssey · GitHub

Audyssey House Curve Revisited... - General Home Theatre Discussion - StereoNET Asia

There may be other versions but I know ratbuddyssey_0.2.1 works well enough for me.

With the help of this UI, you can flatten the response below Schroeder quickly and easily and then it is up to you to custom it to your preference, such as tilt it up from say 100 Hz to 10 Hz.
Hi Peng I have heard wonders of this application but I do not know if I will be able to make it work I am somewhat green on this issue so I could never get into dirac live .. by the way to use ratpbsudy it is necessary to measure later with rew, right?
 

ZinMe

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Only under two, ok, maybe three, conditions:
1) you need more power than the X8500 can provide
2) the amps you use provide more power than the x8500
3) the amps you use don't audibly degrade the signal

Edit: darn.....
4)your speakers can handle more power than the X8500 can provide without heavy distortion/compression

I am only running a 5.1 today going to 7.1 or 7.2 with the new installation. the X8500 has plenty of power. I was asking because the x8500 only fits in my media cabinet with modifications to the cabinet, and, the pre-amp section of the denons (ex. the 4700) is superlative as well and would only cost $1200. A power amp could be found for $1000-3000 that has the same or even better power (even if I don't need the additional power) and also have lower noise/distortion, better damping factor, torodial power supplies etc... A Rotel 1585 or ARCAM 720 or Monoprice or Emotiva would be examples. No doubt the X8500H is the best AVR, but this helps solve a space issue for me and might actually be even better sound quality at the same or lower cost. I'm not sure about RCA connectors and other complexities that might introduce distortion/signal loss.

Edit: and just be clear, I'm not certain of this solution, I'm am genuinely asking for advice because it's quite possible that I'm splitting hairs on the amp quality or there are issues with the pre-amp connection that come into the equation.
 
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Roland

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That is how the dealer configured the demo, so next time I'll know to change it, but my experience with my 10 yr old Pioneer SC-37 was that pure direct was much better. After a lot of time and advice on configuring/setting it with MCACC, all the timing, crossovers, frequency EQ, processing and bass management only muddied up the sound as far as I'm concerned in every mode (stereo, music, 5.1, LRC only etc...) Only with pure direct did I get cohere, clear imaging and stage presence, and detail. I have Hi/Lo inputs for my sub as well as LFE, and the best was pure direct with the hi/lo. Maybe my configuration skills are poor or the AVR isn't so good. We'll see how it goes with the new AVR.

Room correction is just a computerised graphic equaliser, a facility much derided in the past for its interference with the recorded source sound. And the Harman curve is principally the classic “treble -1 bass +1” that made loudspeakers sound more palatable! I’ve tried various room correction versions but always end up preferring pure direct and integrating subs using high level inputs, adjusting gain and frequency with test tones/sweeps and music until it sounds right to me.
 

Andysu

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I can do better. An image is worth a thousand words. Below is exactly what it does and it works very well. I don’t use it very often, but if a movie/show has poor dialogue intelligibility it works great. Even just the low/medium setting.View attachment 81420

Little low noise on my sweep of using a mere filter boost for centre channel, using my THX monitor on Amp return to do the sweep, my centre or DCX2496 with crossover Off. I see the same boost. I never use it. Something not useful for my needs as it won't help much with some film mixes that have poorly mixed LCR of DME dialog music effects on LR that drowns out the centre DME or vice versa with the surrounds but often its LR or often too much boast in remix of movie on centre and I have to readjust so I get an smooth consistence of DME LCR.
Denon 8500.jpg
 

Andysu

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Not sure what is going on here as I did live video over week ago showing the strange centre roll of at 200Hz with the Dolby DSU and I never ever use DSU, I use an outboard Dolby MP 4.2.4 matrix for proper Dolby Stereo playback with 4.2.4 matrix mixes. As there been a firmware in last week for DSU? As the AVR usually updates automatically. Anyhow it looks okay now yet still have the video where I show this between multi stereo ch - DSU and dts neural x, only with the centre channel. I think the Denon is possessed by the Demon. :D Anyway the dts neural x still shows the odd frequency going up and down and this is only the upmixes from each company. Discrete will be usually flat response.

Denon 8500 sound formats.jpg
 

Anterantz

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I've never needed to use the dialogue enhancer, I don't know if it's because of my center which is very good, but every time I watch a movie, it sounds sharp and clear at any volume.
 
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