Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review

[oupee]

Hello, I have a question, according to amir, I measured a sinad of 85db with internal amplifiers. because so much difference in sinad to use external amplification, the dac is not the same? And second question I have bought a dac topping d90 which is better than the internal dac and I am wondering where I should connect it to skip the dac of the x8500h but use its amplification !! Will I improve the sinad in this way or is it only possible through external amplification?

Try everything to have your own experience. She is always the best.

 

[Anterantz]

Some people do listen to >85 dB with peaks potentially as high as 110 dB. Even then I don't believe they could tell a difference but the problem is they seem to always listen with not only ears but eyes as well. The beauty of having SINAD >115 dB is that, as per Benchmarks argument, then you don't have to rely on the music and noise masking effects. For me, even 75 dB is not a problem but that's just me.

Every day that passes I have less clear that the sinad or thd serve a lot to make you opt for a specific brand .. observing the internal amplifier measurements about 5w on the nad t778 vs 8500h the latter has almost 10db of sinad and better thd arriving to 0.004 vs 0.01 for nad! Surely this is not audible but then someone explain to me how I have been talking with two people who reviewed the 8500h and the nad t778 and are dedicated to it and have told me that the nad sounds better than denon! The youtube channel is this @HEIMKINORAUM and I doubt that it intends to make us believe that it is if it really was not ... There is something about this nad that claims to be superior to what pure sound is concerned.

 

[peng]

Every day that passes I have less clear that the sinad or thd serve a lot to make you opt for a specific brand .. observing the internal amplifier measurements about 5w on the nad t778 vs 8500h the latter has almost 10db of sinad and better thd arriving to 0.004 vs 0.01 for nad! Surely this is not audible but then someone explain to me how I have been talking with two people who reviewed the 8500h and the nad t778 and are dedicated to it and have told me that the nad sounds better than denon! The youtube channel is this @HEIMKINORAUM and I doubt that it intends to make us believe that it is if it really was not ... There is something about this nad that claims to be superior to what pure sound is concerned.

Anyone can tell you anything sounds better than anything. I choose to ignore such claims that are based on people's subjective views.

If you believe in those talks, then it's should be easy for you to choose. For example, don't worry about the measurements, get rid of the Denon and grab a T778 and you will be happy right?

 

[bo_knows]

Anyone can tell you anything sounds better than anything. I choose to ignore such claims that are based on people's subjective views.

If you believe in those talks, then it's should be easy for you to choose. For example, don't worry about the measurements, get rid of the Denon and grab a T778 and you will be happy right?

"Sounds better", what a generic statement...

 

[Anterantz]

"Sounds better", what a generic statement...

Man when professionally you dedicate yourself to testing speakers and av I can get a slight idea that I think you understand better than anyone that you have found it better or worse, don't you think?

 

[Anterantz]

Anyone can tell you anything sounds better than anything. I choose to ignore such claims that are based on people's subjective views.

If you believe in those talks, then it's should be easy for you to choose. For example, don't worry about the measurements, get rid of the Denon and grab a T778 and you will be happy right?

Hello Peng, it is not so easy, for that you would have to have enough liquidity and it is not the case since they are high-end av and in Spain there is no establishment that will let you borrow it! I was just making you understand that according to this professional in his ear he prefers nad vs denon and I have told you that even with the denon having the best sinad and thd numbers I still hear many prefer nad or arcam as far as musicality is concerned! I still have not decided because although I want to win the best pure sound, I also value the stability of a team a lot and I do not want to see how I get rid of the denon to finance an av that is constantly damaged.

 

[Bear123]

Hello, I have a question, according to amir, I measured a sinad of 85db with internal amplifiers. because so much difference in sinad to use external amplification, the dac is not the same? And second question I have bought a dac topping d90 which is better than the internal dac and I am wondering where I should connect it to skip the dac of the x8500h but use its amplification !! Will I improve the sinad in this way or is it only possible through external amplification?

What's 99.99% more probable to happen is that if you give up bass management and eq in order to listen in pure direct mode to a DAC with "better" measured SINAD, you will drastically degrade sound quality, while gaining nothing audible in SINAD. It's like spending $100 to save a penny. In the end, you spent $99.99.

In the end, I think we all have to decide if we want high fidelity, or extra noise, distortion and coloration pawned off as musicality....by all means thats certainly ok....people spend a fortune on vinyl, turntables, tube amps etc with poor measured performance and low fidelity. But if that's their preference, no big deal. People think NAD, ARCAM and other expensive brands sound better because they are expensive brands and have paid for their audiophile reputation with flowery subjective reviews from the paid review sites. And people believe what they are told by the peddlers of subjective gobbledy gook.

On the other hand, we might concede that perhaps DIRAC is truly subjectively preferred for sound quality over Audyssey. I haven't seen good evidence to support that, just some subjective opinions. But if we concede DIRAC does indeed sound better than we have to accept that Arcam and NAD's abysmally low SINAD just doesn't matter in real life, and is still good enough.

My non objectively verified opinion is that if 50 folks from ASR did a rigorous blind listening test to a good pair of speakers with good subs and a +/- 1 or 2 dB response with Audysey out to 300 Hz, and a well optimized response from Dirac, that there would not be a clear winner.

I also think the same folks on a real system such as above would not be able to tell the difference between the Denon's 85 dB SINAD and a 120 dB SINAD on normal music/TV/movies in a normal room.

 

[bo_knows]

I'm not sure why are you doing this to yourself. You already possess one of the best AVR ever made. Most of the world population still lust for this piece of equipment yet you are looking for the "best pure sound". If this is what you are really looking for (I assume for the two-channel listening), then Amir and this forum have already outlined/established DAC/Amp equipment that will provide the SINAD numbers for the "pure sound". Personally, I would advise you to focus on the room treatments if not already done. To finish, learn to trust your own ears vs reading about the sound from the other reviewers.

 

[Anterantz]

What's 99.99% more probable to happen is that if you give up bass management and eq in order to listen in pure direct mode to a DAC with "better" measured SINAD, you will drastically degrade sound quality, while gaining nothing audible in SINAD. It's like spending $100 to save a penny. In the end, you spent $99.99.

In the end, I think we all have to decide if we want high fidelity, or extra noise, distortion and coloration pawned off as musicality....by all means thats certainly ok....people spend a fortune on vinyl, turntables, tube amps etc with poor measured performance and low fidelity. But if that's their preference, no big deal. People think NAD, ARCAM and other expensive brands sound better because they are expensive brands and have paid for their audiophile reputation with flowery subjective reviews from the paid review sites. And people believe what they are told by the peddlers of subjective gobbledy gook.

On the other hand, we might concede that perhaps DIRAC is truly subjectively preferred for sound quality over Audyssey. I haven't seen good evidence to support that, just some subjective opinions. But if we concede DIRAC does indeed sound better than we have to accept that Arcam and NAD's abysmally low SINAD just doesn't matter in real life, and is still good enough.

My non objectively verified opinion is that if 50 folks from ASR did a rigorous blind listening test to a good pair of speakers with good subs and a +/- 1 or 2 dB response with Audysey out to 300 Hz, and a well optimized response from Dirac, that there would not be a clear winner.

I also think the same folks on a real system such as above would not be able to tell the difference between the Denon's 85 dB SINAD and a 120 dB SINAD on normal music/TV/movies in a normal room.

Hello bear I want to improve my two channel sound a little more but I do not like direct or pure direct sound since my room is treated and dedicated to cinema / music and I need yes or yes the sound equalized with xt32 ... this denon sounds very well in two channels it reveals all the details that any audiophile could love but I would like it to sound a little more natural and relaxed ... sometimes it gives me the feeling that it sounds a bit artificial!

 

[Anterantz]

[QUOTE = "bo_knows, post: 637324, member: 18968"] No estoy seguro de por qué te haces esto a ti mismo. Ya posee uno de los mejores AVR jamás fabricados. La mayoría de la población mundial todavía desea este equipo, pero usted está buscando el "mejor sonido puro". Si esto es lo que realmente está buscando (supongo que para la escucha de dos canales), entonces Amir y este foro ya han delineado / establecido un equipo DAC / Amp que proporcionará los números SINAD para el "sonido puro". Personalmente, le aconsejaría que se concentre en los tratamientos de la habitación si aún no lo ha hecho. Para terminar, aprenda a confiar en sus propios oídos y no en una revisión por ahí. [/ QUOTE]
thanks

 

[bo_knows]

What's 99.99% more probable to happen is that if you give up bass management and eq in order to listen in pure direct mode to a DAC with "better" measured SINAD, you will drastically degrade sound quality, while gaining nothing audible in SINAD. It's like spending $100 to save a penny. In the end, you spent $99.99.

In the end, I think we all have to decide if we want high fidelity, or extra noise, distortion and coloration pawned off as musicality....by all means thats certainly ok....people spend a fortune on vinyl, turntables, tube amps etc with poor measured performance and low fidelity. But if that's their preference, no big deal. People think NAD, ARCAM and other expensive brands sound better because they are expensive brands and have paid for their audiophile reputation with flowery subjective reviews from the paid review sites. And people believe what they are told by the peddlers of subjective gobbledy gook.

On the other hand, we might concede that perhaps DIRAC is truly subjectively preferred for sound quality over Audyssey. I haven't seen good evidence to support that, just some subjective opinions. But if we concede DIRAC does indeed sound better than we have to accept that Arcam and NAD's abysmally low SINAD just doesn't matter in real life, and is still good enough.

My non objectively verified opinion is that if 50 folks from ASR did a rigorous blind listening test to a good pair of speakers with good subs and a +/- 1 or 2 dB response with Audysey out to 300 Hz, and a well optimized response from Dirac, that there would not be a clear winner.

I also think the same folks on a real system such as above would not be able to tell the difference between the Denon's 85 dB SINAD and a 120 dB SINAD on normal music/TV/movies in a normal room.

Awesome reply! Audyssey or Dirac can only do so much. They work well in conjunction with the room treatments.

 

[Bear123]

Hello bear I want to improve my two channel sound a little more but I do not like direct or pure direct sound since my room is treated and dedicated to cinema / music and I need yes or yes the sound equalized with xt32 ... this denon sounds very well in two channels it reveals all the details that any audiophile could love but I would like it to sound a little more natural and relaxed ... sometimes it gives me the feeling that it sounds a bit artificial!

1)What speakers do you have?
2) What subs do you have?
3) Are you limiting XT32 or running full range correction?
4) Do you use DEQ?
5) Do you run your sub(s) hot?
6) Have you measured your response with REW?

 

[Dj7675]

Anyone can tell you anything sounds better than anything. I choose to ignore such claims that are based on people's subjective views.

I think this is a good moto Well said.

 

[Anterantz]

1)What speakers do you have?
2) What subs do you have?
3) Are you limiting XT32 or running full range correction?
4) Do you use DEQ?
5) Do you run your sub(s) hot?
6) Have you measured your response with REW?

Hello fellow thank you for continuing to context you by point:

1) Monitor audio gold 100 before I had rs6 but my room is small and my columns were out of control and I noticed that a monitor sounded better.
2) I have two svs sb300
3)I have tried curtain at 300/500hz and although it seems to sound more natural in my room I lose detail and spectacle in cinema the one that I like the most is the flat curve makes it perfect in cinema!
4)I do not use deq in any case as I usually hear almost reference to about -8db and I feel that the sound is cleaner without activating deq.
5) The sub run normal nor exaggerated I am happy with the subs
6) I ran rew a while ago and managed by apo equalizer to leave a fairly flat curve but I was not convinced I found the sound dull and sure as what!

Is not

 

[Bear123]

Hmm well those were the biggest things I could think of that would normally have a significant impact on sound quality, and it seems like you have most of that stuff sorted out pretty well.....

-8 MV is fairly loud but if your room is small, I would think the AVR should have enough power especially in 2 channel.

In case you haven't seen it, here are some measurements on your speakers:
Monitor Audio Gold 100
Looks like something a little odd going on around crossover?

Maybe it wouldn't hurt to try a good 2/3 channel external amp? With the right choice, you could gain more power and a higher SINAD to see if that makes a difference? I'm saying this because it seems like you've covered all the other bases.

The challenge I see here is the X8500 is -103 dB from pre-outs so many amps are not this good. Also, the X8500 does have decent power so we need an amp with -103 dB or better and A LOT of power to be in improvement. I'm not sure what the best choice would be here.....NC500 has the power but is only -95 dB and I'd hate to not match or exceed the Denon's signal. NC400 would match up but doesn't have much more power if any.

Maybe Purifi or Benchmark?

 

[Grandzoltar]

1)Benchmark amps have even less power than the hypex nc400 unless you bridge it which unless you have deep pockets would be expensive.
2)I have read somewhere here that the amplifier guidelines should be 10db from the dac sinad. 103db dac would be paired with 93db sinad amplifier.
3) The Monitor audio measurements design a BBC dip into the speaker at the hand over from the woofer to the tweeter. Other lines with in the brand have the same dip. In the Silver line it is the least pronounced
4) Instead of leaving it flat give your response a house curve try a downward slope listen and measure. Give it a week after each tweak.

 

[peng]

Hello Peng, it is not so easy, for that you would have to have enough liquidity and it is not the case since they are high-end av and in Spain there is no establishment that will let you borrow it! I was just making you understand that according to this professional in his ear he prefers nad vs denon and I have told you that even with the denon having the best sinad and thd numbers I still hear many prefer nad or arcam as far as musicality is concerned! I still have not decided because although I want to win the best pure sound, I also value the stability of a team a lot and I do not want to see how I get rid of the denon to finance an av that is constantly damaged.

Yes I understand what you are saying.

 

[Dj7675]

Every day that passes I have less clear that the sinad or thd serve a lot to make you opt for a specific brand .. observing the internal amplifier measurements about 5w on the nad t778 vs 8500h the latter has almost 10db of sinad and better thd arriving to 0.004 vs 0.01 for nad! Surely this is not audible but then someone explain to me how I have been talking with two people who reviewed the 8500h and the nad t778 and are dedicated to it and have told me that the nad sounds better than denon! The youtube channel is this @HEIMKINORAUM and I doubt that it intends to make us believe that it is if it really was not ... There is something about this nad that claims to be superior to what pure sound is concerned.

Couple of thoughts FWIW:
-If you are searching for "pure" you want the product that distorts the signal the least. That would be a product with the highest SINAD
-Cognitive bias cannot be escaped no matter how well intentioned an individual. For example, I don't think people are lying or intentionally stating something that isn't true when they claim the NAD T758 V3 (the worst measuring AVR) sounds better than a Denon even when no EQ is active. Take a look at THIS . It is amazing that our opinions on what we believe have any validity at all.
-Whether something sounds better with EQ on with both systems is another thing entirely. Dirac could (and probably is) in many instances better if doing full range EQ in particular if a person isn't doing some after EQ measuring with Audyssey.
-I would think in order to hear differences with no EQ enabled between the NAD 778 and the Denon x8500, it would need to be a very quite, dedicated room, and you would need to be listening at a quite high volume. For example listening at -20db comparing them, I don't think you should even expect to hear a difference between the two.
-In my opinion (which I know has little value!) it depends on how certain you want to be than noise/distortion will not be an issue in your system (both with amps and dacs). The close to 100 you get with Dacs/Amps it would seem you have little to worry about. The closer to 60-70, it would seem there would be cause for concern that noise/distortion would be a problem.
-It will come down to your listening environment (how quite it is), the volume you listen at, the quality of your speakers (what kind of level of distortion are you getting at your listening volume), and how well can you detect distortion.
Whether one believes statements about the NAD sounding better than Denon (or any other brand for that matter) is certainly up to you. But I just would never consider the validity of a claim where someone claims a worse measuring product sounds much better than a much better measuring one, but that is just me.

 

[Anterantz]

Couple of thoughts FWIW:
-If you are searching for "pure" you want the product that distorts the signal the least. That would be a product with the highest SINAD
-Cognitive bias cannot be escaped no matter how well intentioned an individual. For example, I don't think people are lying or intentionally stating something that isn't true when they claim the NAD T758 V3 (the worst measuring AVR) sounds better than a Denon even when no EQ is active. Take a look at THIS . It is amazing that our opinions on what we believe have any validity at all.
-Whether something sounds better with EQ on with both systems is another thing entirely. Dirac could (and probably is) in many instances better if doing full range EQ in particular if a person isn't doing some after EQ measuring with Audyssey.
-I would think in order to hear differences with no EQ enabled between the NAD 778 and the Denon x8500, it would need to be a very quite, dedicated room, and you would need to be listening at a quite high volume. For example listening at -20db comparing them, I don't think you should even expect to hear a difference between the two.
-In my opinion (which I know has little value!) it depends on how certain you want to be than noise/distortion will not be an issue in your system (both with amps and dacs). The close to 100 you get with Dacs/Amps it would seem you have little to worry about. The closer to 60-70, it would seem there would be cause for concern that noise/distortion would be a problem.
-It will come down to your listening environment (how quite it is), the volume you listen at, the quality of your speakers (what kind of level of distortion are you getting at your listening volume), and how well can you detect distortion.
Whether one believes statements about the NAD sounding better than Denon (or any other brand for that matter) is certainly up to you. But I just would never consider the validity of a claim where someone claims a worse measuring product sounds much better than a much better measuring one, but that is just me.

Hello guys, excuse my impure thoughts I almost fell into the dark side lol I've been listening to several tracks all afternoon and the truth is I don't know what I want more ... this av sounds very good and I was obsessing over a sound that maybe I already have it dac topping the truth I have not noticed that it contributes much to the already good dac of the 8500h I will return it and look for a two channel stage that gives me a better sinad! by the way I have returned to test reference + 500hz and full range flat and in my room there is a day and night in detail and richness both in music and cinema.

 

[Anterantz]

What's 99.99% more probable to happen is that if you give up bass management and eq in order to listen in pure direct mode to a DAC with "better" measured SINAD, you will drastically degrade sound quality, while gaining nothing audible in SINAD. It's like spending $100 to save a penny. In the end, you spent $99.99.

In the end, I think we all have to decide if we want high fidelity, or extra noise, distortion and coloration pawned off as musicality....by all means thats certainly ok....people spend a fortune on vinyl, turntables, tube amps etc with poor measured performance and low fidelity. But if that's their preference, no big deal. People think NAD, ARCAM and other expensive brands sound better because they are expensive brands and have paid for their audiophile reputation with flowery subjective reviews from the paid review sites. And people believe what they are told by the peddlers of subjective gobbledy gook.

On the other hand, we might concede that perhaps DIRAC is truly subjectively preferred for sound quality over Audyssey. I haven't seen good evidence to support that, just some subjective opinions. But if we concede DIRAC does indeed sound better than we have to accept that Arcam and NAD's abysmally low SINAD just doesn't matter in real life, and is still good enough.

My non objectively verified opinion is that if 50 folks from ASR did a rigorous blind listening test to a good pair of speakers with good subs and a +/- 1 or 2 dB response with Audysey out to 300 Hz, and a well optimized response from Dirac, that there would not be a clear winner.

I also think the same folks on a real system such as above would not be able to tell the difference between the Denon's 85 dB SINAD and a 120 dB SINAD on normal music/TV/movies in a normal room.

Hello, I totally agree that there are many users who say it sounds better because I pay more ... it is like the one that changes from a 3500 denon to an arcam or nad and says that it sounds better ... I do not doubt it but you have paid 3 times the value of the denon! But in this case the 8500h costs the same as these brands and I just wanted to be sure I had the best investment! I imagine that dirac helps and a lot for that I hope that xt32 will get the batteries.