Another possibility, if you are interested in the x8500h, is to purchase it and update the Hdmi 2.1 board later when the problem is solved, but the price difference is important and the surcharge for the update is also important.
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Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review
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I’m in the same boat, 6700 or 8500, but I will wait for the hdmi fix and see what other AVRs might get measured here in the meantime.
Currently using a Marantz 6012 with L/R channels powered by a Denon 2112. Or in other words leftover AVRs as temporary solution for my 7.4 ht
Currently using a Marantz 6012 with L/R channels powered by a Denon 2112. Or in other words leftover AVRs as temporary solution for my 7.4 ht
BlackSpider777
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On a side note, will the Denon X8500 blend well with my Nad M32 (integrated stereo amp) which i use to power the front speakers( B&W 702 s2) with? The Nad M32 is Digital amp but i m sure audyssey will correct the issues? Currently using a Nad T758v3 to power center, surrounds & atmos but very tempted to go for the X8500 as it measures so well.
Thanks.
Thanks.
No reason at all your M22 amp won’t work great with the x8500. As the person that sent in the T758 for Amir to measure and have switched to the x8500... just do it. The T758 has one thing going for it... Dirac but that can’t overcome the poor dac or very poor amps (both quality and quantity) as the measurements here have shown. In addition, with the app, audyssey is better than Dirac (without the bass management plugin which the t758 does not have) with multiple subs. The Audyssey app is a must purchase though as you can change your room curve and limit the correction frequency. In my opinion it is a very worthwhile move. Check out open box deals from authorized dealers such as safeandsoundhq. Generally they are around $3k or so vs 4k.
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Hello there is something that I do not understand in the amir test of his dac it offered a results of 103/104 of sinad and measuring the interior sinad it offered 85db sinad that is due to? Denon says it uses dac akm 4490eq on all its channels right?
The 103 is the DAC and the 85 is the SINAD of the amps.
Hello if that is clear to me, but if the dac is the akm4490 in preamp mode it also says on the web that the same dac carries each one per channel, right? Or is that dac akm4490 is only used if the av is used in previous mode? In the end if we use the internal amplifiers we have the same sinad using 8 akm 4490 vs a single akm 4458 of the lower ranges?
I'm not an expert, but I understand that the cause of the distortion is the Denon x8500h's own amplification and the accompanying electronic complexity.
In Amir's tests with two channels, the SINAD differences between the pre mode and the internal amplification of the Denon x8500h are minimal until 1.4v are reached, a volume therefore already very considerable.
From 1.4v, it is when the distortion appears with the internal amplification, quickly dropping to 80db of SINAD with 2v.
Turning off the internal amplification, the source of the distortion, with 2v the x8500h continues to offer a SINAD close to the maximum of 104db with adequate and efficient external amplifiers, and with less electronic complexity.
Hello, but if you never reached the reference level with the internal amplifiers, would you still have 85db of sinad?
illo. I don't quite understand your question.
You mean the volume scale and its reference value 0?
With the help of the data provided a time ago by another colleague, I will try to correlate the volts on the horizontal axis of the SINAD curve, with the approximate level of the volume scale at which they could be produced.
These data are only orientative.
- At -11.5 of the volume scale the data of the curve (0.3v) would start. At this point the x8500h has approximately 93db of SINAD.
- At volume reference level 0, according to the same guideline relationship, approximately 101db of SINAD would be reached.
- At +2 (1.45v), the maximum of 102 db of SINAD would be reached with internal amplification, and it would begin to decline from this point.
- A +5 is when 80-85db of SINAD is reached. This figure is the lowest on the curve and is reached with 2v, 5 points above the reference volume level.
Cheers
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Summing up, based on these calculations, a little past the reference level, level +2 on the volume scale, the internal amplifiers would still maintain a clean signal, I think the highest SINAD measured in ASR.
And at higher volume it is very difficult for the SINAD differences to be really audible, 80db / 103db at 2v, which could correspond to a level of +5 on the volume scale.
And at higher volume it is very difficult for the SINAD differences to be really audible, 80db / 103db at 2v, which could correspond to a level of +5 on the volume scale.
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Hi, I had planned to put a marantz stage for the front but I don't need power and my volume never exceeds -10 / -5db and I was wondering if at that volume and having monitors and cutting them into small if an external stage is worth it! My idea was to benefit from the dac for preout outputs since amir measured 103db vs 85db of the internal ones but if those measurements are at + 5db I will never be able to go up to that volume ... then I wonder if it is worth it?
It is a highly debated topic and a personal decision in your case. I know your equipment and it is difficult for me to beat their sound or notice improvements.
Assuming that the receiver is appropriate for the size of the room and that it meets the demands of the loudspeakers, the decision is complicated.
What must be seriously considered is the amplifier that is going to be used so as not to deteriorate a clean signal from the avr, as is the case. Not just any amplifier will do.
As always, for some the changes will be enormous and for others with similar teams they will state that they do not notice changes. Will reality be a middle ground, or nothing at all?
To be clear, that's for measurements. When in use for music, it depends largely on the input signal (music), that varies continuously, and in large magnitudes, 20 dB swing on top of the "average" level is not uncommon.
Yes, it has no value, it is variable.
It was only as a guide to get an idea of at what level the distortion-noise of the internal amplification occurs compared to the preamp.
And if we gather in a single graph, Amir's SINAD curves from receivers from different brands, the one for the x8500h is even more impressive.
Hi guys, I've been changing settings in the multeq editor app all afternoon and I don't notice a big change, do you notice when you apply curtains to audyseey or deactivate the midrange compensation? What are your settings for film and music two channels?
I guess it depends on what you did and how you define "big change..", and whether you meant the difference was not very audible. If you use something like REW and an Umik-1 mic you should see very obvious change. It could be something that is easy to see, but not so easy to hear, like the difference between 80 dB SINAD and 90 dB SINAD. "Big change" to the eyes but may not even be noticeable to the ears, depending...
Bear123
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This is part of the reason why I think obsessing over SINAD of good AVR's vs dedicated amps and DAC's is often meaningless in real life and blown WAY out of proportion.
No one I know, and no one I've seen post, listens at or above reference level on a regular basis. Even -10dB from reference is much louder than average from what I have seen. So who cares if SINAD drops at +5 MV? Even if it does, -85 dB is still transparent in real life, especially considering the massive levels of distortion that 99+% of all speakers will be generating at those levels. 105 dB peaks at 12 feet? I don't think any of the 100 speakers tested on this site are reference capable at 12', and we haven't even factored in eq necessary below 300 Hz.
Unless someone needs more power, I don't see any real life benefit to using standalone 2 channel DAC's and external amps, regardless of how much "more" inaudible the SINAD is.
Hello Peng, thanks for context, I wanted to say that I do not notice an auditory improvement that makes me decide between one thing and another ... by the way since you handle sinad and it is still not clear to me I was thinking of putting a two-channel stage to see if I took advantage of the good sinad of the dac but could you tell me if normally listening at a volume of -10db on the absolute scale that sinad would take out the 8500 with the internal amplifiers? We already know that the preamp is 103dbI guess it depends on what you did and how you define "big change..", and whether you meant the difference was not very audible. If you use something like REW and an Umik-1 mic you should see very obvious change. It could be something that is easy to see, but not so easy to hear, like the difference between 80 dB SINAD and 90 dB SINAD. "Big change" to the eyes but may not even be noticeable to the ears, depending...
