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Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review

peng

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Anyone know the max voltage output before being pushed passed linearity on the RCAs?

The graph for the 6700 should give you some ideas, the 8500 should do a little better but I think any difference would be practically negligible.

1602509103495.png
 

peng

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Hi, I just did tests connecting a rotel stage to the front trio and in my case I have not noticed any improvement in the sound! My room is small and my gold100 and center c150 are fed by the denon 8500h.

It is possible that some people may be immune to Placebo!!:D There are going to be people who would tell you the non identical twins like the 4700 and 7015 would sound different to them even in purely direct mode, analog input, i.e. no dsp/EQ, ie same stuff in different boxes, and no one can dispute their "facts" because that's why they heard, just like no one can tell you that the Rotel did improve, but you just didn't notice it.;)

Which Rotel by the way, just curious to know how their measurements compare?
 

da Choge

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Just got an email earlier yesterday from Denon about their new www.Denon.com website. Went to it, and, if you click on either the entries for the AVR-X6700H or the AVR-A110, it states they [Denon] are "Out of Stock". And, the AVR-X8500H is not even listed as an offering. Don't know exactly what that all means, but I'm guessing those who want to get their hands on a Limited Edition AVR-A110, might need to look into it very soon. The AVR-A110 may be available from other online or brick-store suppliers, but this may be an indication that it is in high-demand and its issuing may run out soon? - I don't know.
I have really wanted the new AVR-A110, but I am not in a position right now to get it. As far as the other Denon models [AVR-X6700H and AVR-8500H(A)], I don't know exactly what the Denon website is telling us, so soon after their 2020/2021 releases? -- maybe that all their current stock is already committed out to other distributors/retailers?

[EDIT; 2020/10/25 AM]: The site now states the A110 as available, but no listing for the X8500H at all. Although initially marketed as a "Limited Edition", will the A110 be the intended replacement for the X8500H for the time being? The website is new, so maybe it is still undergoing some tweaking? And maybe Covid and a slowdown in production and demand is taking its effect.
 
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Omac

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This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X8500H Flagship 13.2 Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a member and costs US $3999.

The 8500H is a beast: it is both deep and heavy. Thankfully the transformer is centrally located so as manageable as 51 pounds can be:
View attachment 77691

If RCA connectors were Christmas lights, you would have the best one in the entire neighborhood with this AVR:

View attachment 77692

In use, the AVR-X8500H ran a bit cooler than its lower end siblings. I think I measured a post-testing temperature of 45 degrees C. Still, I highly recommend ample cooling as once again, there is a fan under the heatsinks but it does not turn on in normal usage (ECO mode off).

If you have read my previous reviews of AVRs, you know that I test the pre-amp output with and without amplifiers active (if there is such an option). I tried to do this with the 8500H but at first failed miserably. I set the amplifier config to "pre" which I thought would shut down all the amps. Performance was poor indicating the amps were probably still on. Discussing it with the owner, he suggested that I turn off the individual channels and set the Amp config to Custom. Doing that indeed turned off the amps resulting in much better DAC performance. I asked Denon about it but their engineering team is on holiday. The suggestion was that perhaps this is something that is fixed in later firmware revisions? I did not try to test that.

As with other Denon and Marantz measurements of late, I sent my results to them for review. Per above, engineering team was on vacation but US contacts felt good about the data and so we are running with them.

AVR DAC Pre-out HDMI Measurements
Per my standard testing protocol, I feed the AVR stereo 1 kHz PCM digital signal and adjust the volume to produce 2 volts nominal. Like all the other Denon & Marantz AVRs, this meant volume level of 82.5. Pure Direct mode was used for all testing. And per introduction above, the front L&R amps are shut off:

View attachment 77693

Aha! We have set a record folks. An AVR that produces a SINAD (sum of distortion and noise) that exceeds 100 dB! Hooray!!!

View attachment 77694

Whoever said AVRs are too complicated to ever have good SINAD needs to eat their hat, shorts, or whatever they put forward if shown wrong. :) It is very nice to see at least some scaling of SINAD with respect to price.

Sweeping the digital level to see the performance at different output levels we get:
View attachment 77698

Since you can turn all the amplifiers on and off per channel, you don't have to worry about the second graph but I post it for consistency with other AVRs that can't do this. It does nicely show the peak performance though which is at 104 dB SINAD and 1.45 volts. But you don't lose hardly any performance at 2 volts (with amp shut off of course).

Dynamic range is nearly good enough to keep up with the SINAD:

View attachment 77695

Intermodulation distortion is fine for an AVR:
View attachment 77696

As is 32-tone test masquerading as music:

View attachment 77697

Filter has good attenuation:

View attachment 77699

Which helps when we see distortion versus frequency:

View attachment 77700

Jitter and spurious tone and noise is not pretty but not an audible concern:
View attachment 77701

Our hearing threshold is way too high for the low frequency spray to be audible. Still, I like to see Denon clean this up. A dirty spoon doesn't change the flavor of your soup but I rather have a clean one still!

Linearity was excellent in channel but degraded a bit in the other:
View attachment 77702

Zone 2 DAC Audio Performance
The owner asked for the Zone 2 performance. I fumbled through the menus and found an option to send all output to zones 2 and 3 and got this out of Zone 2 pre out:

View attachment 77703

Output was capped at half a volt which hurt noise performance resulting in a SINAD of nearly 98 dB. If volume could go higher, it seems it would reach the same performance as the mains as distortion is very low at -104 dB or so. If you are going to use an external amp for these zones, better get one with high sensitivity.

AVR Amplifier Performance
I started the testing here by using HDMI as the input as that is likely how all of you will be using the AVR:

View attachment 77704

For comparison to other amplifiers though, analog testing is more convenient so I tested the CD input:

View attachment 77705

We see that performance is essentially the same. The DAC in the AVR is way better than the amplifier so it doesn't impact performance when we use HDMI.

I wish one channel wasn't much worse than the other as otherwise, the overall ranking would be good. As it is, it is a bit worse than the cheaper Denons:

View attachment 77706

Among all amplifiers of all types, performance is above average:
View attachment 77707

Not state of the art though. So external amplification should improve overall performance given how good the DAC is.

CD frequency response in pure direct mode is nice and wide:
View attachment 77708

Signal to noise ratio could be a bit better at 5 watts but good enough at full power:
View attachment 77709

Crosstalk is like other Denon AVRs which once again is good enough:

View attachment 77710

AVR Power Measurements
Let's start with 4 ohm load and see what that gets us:

View attachment 77711

I like to see that graph sloping down until clipping sets in. As it is, it indicates that distortion becomes dominant quite early. Good amount of power is available which increases yet again if we allow 1% THD+N and use burst measurements:

View attachment 77712

Amplifier performance is very predictable in a good way:
View attachment 77713

Switching to 8 ohm we essentially get the same power as Denon specifiies:

View attachment 77714

All of these tests are in 2-channel mode but the AVR power supply is designed to power more channels. As a result, we are getting the best case performance numbers. Let's see the impact of each channel as we go from one to five channels:

View attachment 77716

So there is no cliff there. We still get a respectable 131 watts per channel with all five channels driven continuously (1% distortion+noise)

Conclusions
Testing AVRs and even expensive processors has been a depressing trip. A highlight however has been Denon AVRs which generally outperform their competition. So it is with great pleasure to see their flagship AVR bettering the performance of all home theater products tested so far. Yes, it is a more expensive product but at least you get more when you pay more. Features like ability to turn off any amplification channel is super important for a high-end theater where you want to have some external amplification.

Needless to say, I am happy to recommend the Denon AVR-X8500H.

-----------
As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

I had to test this AVR twice: once with the broken Pre mode and then with the amp turned off. Considering how much work they are to measure as is, this was a ton of work. I hope that makes you feel sorry for me by donating what you can using : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/
This was a great review. Keep up with the great work.
 

pedrob

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The main advantage of 8500 is its ability to turn off any channels you want and use external amplification for it. You can't do that with their other AVRs. This is a big advantage as external amplification is useful for all three front channels.
Agree, although my preference is for all amplifiers to be identical and all speakers to come from the same manufacturer. Perhaps over the top and a bit obsessive. Just my preference so that Dolby Surround sounds as good as possible and more importantly complements the main front channels.

I've read that 13 channels are often considered excessive, although I'm not so sure. Front, Surround and Rear Surround isn't going too far. That's 7 and if you add in 6 height or Atmos speakers, one for each channel, there's the 13. There could even be 14 channels if a Voice of God channel was implemented; basically having a height channel for every speaker. Are you listening Denon? Even if the studios aren't providing soundtracks, I'm certain surround processing would be satisfactory.
 
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Hi everyone,

I m considering the denon 8500 to replace my Nad T758 v3, i use my stereo integrated amp(Nad M32) as a power amp for my front speakers (B&W 702 s2)
The Nad T758 v3 powers the center, surround & atmos channels. I read about the Denon 8500 pre/custom amp mode. Is it possible to disable the internal amps for the front 2 channels only?
as i would still use my Nad M32 as power amp for the fronts for movies/games.

Thanks.
 

Webninja

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Hi everyone,

I m considering the denon 8500 to replace my Nad T758 v3, i use my stereo integrated amp(Nad M32) as a power amp for my front speakers (B&W 702 s2)
The Nad T758 v3 powers the center, surround & atmos channels. I read about the Denon 8500 pre/custom amp mode. Is it possible to disable the internal amps for the front 2 channels only?
as i would still use my Nad M32 as power amp for the fronts for movies/games.

Thanks.

Yes, the 8500 has the ability to select which channels will be using an external amp. With the lower model Denons, you only get the choice of front left and right OR all external. This is the reason the 8500 is on my list.
 
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Yes, the 8500 has the ability to select which channels will be using an external amp. With the lower model Denons, you only get the choice of front left and right OR all external. This is the reason the 8500 is on my list.
Thats great, so incase i go for the X6700h instead, i can still use the Preamp mode for the Front L/R Channels only(will power it with Nad M32) & use the internal amps for the remaining channels which will be center, surround & atmos? If so the 6700H will also fit my requirement then.

Thanks.
 

pedrob

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Yes, the 8500 has the ability to select which channels will be using an external amp. With the lower model Denons, you only get the choice of front left and right OR all external. This is the reason the 8500 is on my list.
My Denon is AVR-X4300H and I have all my channels (5.2.4) powered by external amps. All I've been able to discover is to turn on ECO mode to cut 30% power supply to the internal amps. Any help setting it up to disable the amps would be appreciated.
 

peng

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Agree, although my preference is for all amplifiers to be identical and all speakers to come from the same manufacturer. Perhaps over the top and a bit obsessive. Just my preference so that Dolby Surround sounds as good as possible and more importantly complements the main front channels.

At least you are being honest and not delusional (that depends on other factors such as your power need for each channel).:D
 

peng

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My Denon is AVR-X4300H and I have all my channels (5.2.4) powered by external amps. All I've been able to discover is to turn on ECO mode to cut 30% power supply to the internal amps. Any help setting it up to disable the amps would be appreciated.

If minimum pre out distortions is your goal, then may I suggest you take the important first step to figure out how much power you actually need before even worrying about disabling amps? That is because if you look at the distortions vs pre out voltage level that Amir provided for the Denon receivers, if your power need does not call for voltage above a certain level, distortions would not degrade much, or at all. Regardless, if you do want to disconnect the pre out from the build in power amps, you can use the amp assign feature, but you can only disconnect the front left and right channels.
 

Urgo

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My Denon is AVR-X4300H and I have all my channels (5.2.4) powered by external amps. All I've been able to discover is to turn on ECO mode to cut 30% power supply to the internal amps. Any help setting it up to disable the amps would be appreciated.

The "Pre Amplifier" mode, in which all internal amplification channels are disconnected, is a novelty of the Denon and Marantz models of this year 2020, it is not possible in the previous models.
For the front L / R I do not know if it is possible in your model.
 

Urgo

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Previously, only the Denon x8500h had that capability, in addition to the individual disconnect, which is unique to the x8500h and the A110 anniversary limited series.
 
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Previously, only the Denon x8500h had that capability, in addition to the individual disconnect, which is unique to the x8500h and the A110 anniversary limited series.
So you can shut down the internal amps for the Left/Right of the X8500 if pre outs are used for external amplification?

Thanks.
 

Dj7675

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So you can shut down the internal amps for the Left/Right of the X8500 if pre outs are used for external amplification?

Thanks.
Disconnect is a better word than shut down. My understanding is amps are still on idling. The x8500 can disconnect its L/R like other models, but it can also disconnect any channel individually.
 

Urgo

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So you can shut down the internal amps for the Left/Right of the X8500 if pre outs are used for external amplification?

Thanks.

Yes, on the Denon x8500h (and Denon A110) any channel can be individually switched off, including of course the front R / L, or all of them entirely.
In the rest of the Denon-Marantz models there is a way to disconnect the R / L fronts, and as a novelty this year there is also the "Preamplifier" mode to disconnect all the internal amplification. But it is not possible to individually disconnect the rest of the channels as in the x8500h.

With the 6700 for example, you will have a form of disconnection only for the fronts, but you cannot also disconnect the central.
Just the front or all.

There exists a problem with the translation of the browser, it is a "disconnect", not a "shutdown or closure".
 

Dj7675

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But it is not possible to individually disconnect the rest of the channels as in the x8500h.
This is not correct. It is possible to disconnect any or all channels with the X8500.
 
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Yes, on the Denon x8500h (and Denon A110) any channel can be individually switched off, including of course the front R / L, or all of them entirely.
In the rest of the Denon-Marantz models there is a way to disconnect the R / L fronts, and as a novelty this year there is also the "Preamplifier" mode to disconnect all the internal amplification. But it is not possible to individually disconnect the rest of the channels as in the x8500h.

With the 6700 for example, you will have a form of disconnection only for the fronts, but you cannot also disconnect the central.
Just the front or all.

There exists a problem with the translation of the browser, it is a "disconnect", not a "shutdown or closure".
I just need to disconnect the Front L/R channels really, now this puts me in a dilemma if i should get the x6700 or x8500.
If denon manages to solve their 4k @120 issue with the x6700 then will go for that one for sure as i m getting the Xbox Series X later this month.
Tough decisions :eek:
 

Urgo

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This is not correct. It is possible to disconnect any or all channels with the X8500.

What I am saying, or want to say, and the translator must not accompany me (I apologize for that), is that any channel can be individually disconnected on the 8500. It is the current big difference between the top and the rest of the models.

And everyone, of course.
 

Urgo

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I just need to disconnect the Front L/R channels really, now this puts me in a dilemma if i should get the x6700 or x8500.
If denon manages to solve their 4k @120 issue with the x6700 then will go for that one for sure as i m getting the Xbox Series X later this month.
Tough decisions :eek:

Well, as is the issue of Hdmi 2.1 in the new models, it is better to wait for it to be solved, especially if you plan to use the XBox or a PC and 4k / 100Hz.
 
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