Denon AVR-X6700H Home Theater AVR Review

[voodooless]

You give it too many laps, one thing is that you return it because it gets too hot or that it protects itself when you turn it on but for 10db of less sinad?

It’s a $€ 2500,- product! Why would you accept a 10 dB difference vs the same product a few months later? 10dB is a massive difference. The NAD might be $€ 1000,- cheaper.. I’d still not spend my money on that.

Based on lots of Internet searches the answers so far are:

1) No idea

2) Nothing, pure marketing fluff. This is a good answer. The components in the Denon products are capable of excellent performance (not that they always achieve it) without some added magic.

Based on the measurements it’s probably not nothing... @amirm can you on the next unit check the stopband spectrum a bit further up to see if the unit has an always on upsampling? If so there should be a second stopband step further on, going to about -80 dB.

 

[lashto]

For atmos decoding to turn on, the stream needs to be atmos encoded. I don't have any such source signal. I searched quickly and it doesn't look like Audio Precision has one either. One would need an encoder for that. So no, it is not practical to turn this option on.

That's what I was afraid of too. Do they have any Dolby-whatever encoded test signal? (preferably uncompressed TrueHD or DTS HD). Or does anyone else?

 

[lashto]

Why does the manual not mention D.D.S.C. or AL32 in any way? When is it active? When not? What does it actually do?

Here's my AL32 hypothesis. If you input a say 24bit/192kHz signal, it should go like this inside the AVR DSP board:
1. Dolby decoding.
2. Downsample to 48kHz (possibly using AL32 algorithms).
3. Room correction & other DSP stuff like crossovers, EQ, bass boost, etc
4. AL32 (re)upsample to whatever input freq needed by the DAC board.

And yes, all that is pure speculation. But I do not see any other place in the audio path where that AL32 stuff might be used. And since nobody did ever mention a way to activate/deactivate it, the safest assumption is that it's always on (at least for digital signals).

 

[voodooless]

Look here at what happens when your (A)SRC is not working very well: https://src.infinitewave.ca/ check out NHC MixPad. It has comparable stopband to the Denon, the transition is a bit slower though. Distortion products rise significantly vs the good implementations (e.q. SOX VHQ Lin phase). Don't get me wrong though: I don't want to point to a clear correlation either. The stopband does not necessarily say something about the filters quality. Have a look at the "Reaper 2.55 ("Better" preset)". Also a not that deep stopband, however the distortion spectrum is quite clean.

Point being: if this kind of processing is always active, it should be investigated, specially if a unit turns out to have performance that is 10dB below stuff from the same brand that costs not even half..

 

[lashto]

Look here at what happens when your (A)SRC is not working very well: https://src.infinitewave.ca/ check out NHC MixPad. It has comparable stopband to the Denon, the transition is a bit slower though. Distortion products rise significantly vs the good implementations (e.q. SOX VHQ Lin phase). Don't get me wrong though: I don't want to point to a clear correlation either. The stopband does not necessarily say something about the filters quality. Have a look at the "Reaper 2.55 ("Better" preset)". Also a not that deep stopband, however the distortion spectrum is quite clean.

Point being: if this kind of processing is always active, it should be investigated, specially if a unit turns out to have performance that is 10dB below stuff from the same brand that costs not even half..

Judging by the quality of all other parts, I wouldn't expect AVR downsampling/upsampling to be anywhere near the best algorithms in that Infinitewave top. It would be useful to test it but it's not even clear if it it's possible.

The current ASR tests cover only a small part of an AVR's functionality. A full-test might take more than 1day and there are no standard tools or tests for many functions (e.g. Amir mentioned that there is no Atmos test signal). We can only ask and hope for a bit more dedicated AVR testing.

 

[bobopich]

Judging by the quality of all other parts, I wouldn't expect AVR downsampling/upsampling to be anywhere near the best algorithms in that Infinitewave top. It would be useful to test it but it's not even clear if it it's possible.

The current ASR tests cover only a small part of an AVR's functionality. A full-test might take more than 1day and there are no standard tools or tests for many functions (e.g. Amir mentioned that there is no Atmos test signal). We can only ask and hope for a bit more dedicated AVR testing.

I think if Amirm can allocate some time with any Denon/Marantz AVR and calibrate Audyssey so that he can check/compare Sinad measurements with EQ on/off, Dynamic EQ on/off it would be very useful as a data to see what happens with all AD,DA conversions engaged vs pure direct modeas I think almost no one is using these AVRs in pure direct mode. Of course he answered me once that it will not be representative this way and strange things may occur but nevertheless if possible I am very interested in the results.

 

[BsdKurt]

Nope.
I'm willing to accept their explanation of "caused by a particular capacitor used in the initial production run to mitigate a supply issue caused by the COVID-19 pandemic.". I'm not saying I will buy one until the retest though.

I think the amount of brand name bashing and negativity thrown around is a bit high for what is happening here. Vendors are getting the message. It's time to test your products before production and make sure it meets a level of performance that they can justify for the price they are asking. It will take time, perhaps one or two more model-year upgrades and competition for us to see really good results.

I see this and Denon's reaction as a very positive thing. I guess I'm an optimist and want to believe that they and their competitors start paying attention to producing quality results.

I’m starting to regret making these statements. With Denon now saying they will not be fixing the units with the Covid capacitors, it looks like they haven’t got the message.

Their reversal also opens up a whole lot of speculation as to why; Was the actual problem really a bad capacitor? Whatever the problem was, did it affect all models for a period of time and it would have been to costly to replace them all?

Given the fact that they flip-flopped on fixing the units and no clear explanation of what the problem was and how it is now fixed, how can we have confidence that the unit they sent Amir is not a golden model?

@bigguyca you we’re right to say the x6700h is dead in the water. Personally I’m holding off on any Denon purchase until the Covid supply chain issue is fully understood and I can definitely verify that the unit I receive was not made with sub-par parts.

 

[Pepperjack]

It would pro

I’m starting to regret making these statements. With Denon now saying they will not be fixing the units with the Covid capacitors, it looks like they haven’t got the message.

Their reversal also opens up a whole lot of speculation as to why; Was the actual problem really a bad capacitor? Whatever the problem was, did it affect all models for a period of time and it would have been to costly to replace them all?

Given the fact that they flip-flopped on fixing the units and no clear explanation of what the problem was and how it is now fixed, how can we have confidence that the unit they sent Amir is not a golden model?

@bigguyca you we’re right to say the x6700h is dead in the water. Personally I’m holding off on any Denon purchase until the Covid supply chain issue is fully understood and I can definitely verify that the unit I receive was not made with sub-par parts.

probably a good idea if possible however I seriously doubt any manufacturer is able to avoid any part substitutions reliably.

 

[peng]

Why does the manual not mention D.D.S.C. or AL32 in any way? When is it active? When not? What does it actually do?

My old avr-4308ci has led indicator lights for those gadgets and my newer avr-x4400h has a status button, you press it and it displays AL32 processing. The avr-x4700h has a status button too so try pressing it and see what happens.

 

[Dj7675]

I raised a support request with Denon yesterday about my X6700 regarding the capacitor issue.

Today I have received a response, to say that I'm dissapointed would be an understatement:



I have replied stating that I'm not happy and asking for clarification. If they refuse to replace the unit despite confirming the issue then I will have to initiate a return with my dealer and I won't be considering a Denon device in future.

That is an unfortunate response for sure. It seems like a reversal from their initial response. Seems like a lot to ask of the customer spending a pretty significant $'s and asked to live with a known issue. Fix or Replace seems not to much to expect.

 

[Anterantz]

My old avr-4308ci has led indicator lights for those gadgets and my newer avr-x4400h has a status button, you press it and it displays AL32 processing. The avr-x4700h has a status button too so try pressing it and see what happens.

which button is it?

 

[Anterantz]

It’s a $€ 2500,- product! Why would you accept a 10 dB difference vs the same product a few months later? 10dB is a massive difference. The NAD might be $€ 1000,- cheaper.. I’d still not spend my money on that.



Based on the measurements it’s probably not nothing... @amirm can you on the next unit check the stopband spectrum a bit further up to see if the unit has an always on upsampling? If so there should be a second stopband step further on, going to about -80 dB.

We do not know what the difference in sinad of -10db is due to and if there was any factor that amir could overlook in his tests ... I am not defending denon, I just think that no one would distinguish between a denon 6500 vs 6700 in what quality of final audio is concerned !! And if it is later proven that that worst sinad is not from the famous post covid capacitor?

 

[jomark911]

Guys I think you are speculating on something that is not clear yet.
The say bada bim bada boom.
You say bada bada.
Ok , wait for the review , of the non covid amp and then you can take it up to denon.

 

[Bello]

I just hope Amirm is Not receiving a 6700H, re-test, directly from Denon? Just more work for Amirm to later re-test another, newer, 3rd 6700H from a member. To keep everyone honest, difference in spec, as it relates to the ongoing cap replacement issue / resolution.

 

[voodooless]

We do not know what the difference in sinad of -10db is due to and if there was any factor that amir could overlook in his tests ...

That is my whole point!

And if it is later proven that that worst sinad is not from the famous post covid capacitor?

Then Denon lied and we know why they won’t replace the old units...


... just test that damn thing already.. the suspense is killing us

 

[amirm]

That's what I was afraid of too. Do they have any Dolby-whatever encoded test signal? (preferably uncompressed TrueHD or DTS HD). Or does anyone else?

They have these but not atmos.

 

[Fillius]

I’m starting to regret making these statements. With Denon now saying they will not be fixing the units with the Covid capacitors, it looks like they haven’t got the message.

Their reversal also opens up a whole lot of speculation as to why; Was the actual problem really a bad capacitor? Whatever the problem was, did it affect all models for a period of time and it would have been to costly to replace them all?

Given the fact that they flip-flopped on fixing the units and no clear explanation of what the problem was and how it is now fixed, how can we have confidence that the unit they sent Amir is not a golden model?

@bigguyca you we’re right to say the x6700h is dead in the water. Personally I’m holding off on any Denon purchase until the Covid supply chain issue is fully understood and I can definitely verify that the unit I receive was not made with sub-par parts.

Definitely, I was initially very positive about their response and the Denon brand. Their response to me has completely shattered that, how can we trust a brand that is willing to backtrack like this?

I haven't had a reply to my follow up questions from yesterday and now they're closed until Monday.

There will only be a small number of owners asking about this issue. For a premium product that costs as much as the X6700, I don't think it's too much to ask that it meets the high standards they promise. Surely a few replacements for the small number of owners that it matters to is better than permanently loosing customers?

If they were being truthful about the cause of the "suprising" measurements (which I'm now doubtful), that means that people who buy the unit at nearly half price next year will get a better unit than those who paid full price... Given how low the price of the X6500 dropped, I think it's safe to say there's a big enough margin on these devices to cover the cost of a few replacements due to a known fault.

Does the current device even meet the 100dB SNR advertised?

 

[peng]

which button is it?

If you have the AVR-X4700H, it is button No.5 in the diagram below:

 

[peng]

Definitely,

Does the current device even meet the 100dB SNR advertised?

In the Owner's manual, the x6700H's SNR specs are:
Amir's measurements were for full bandwidth, not IHF-A weighted that is filtered. So based the measured 103.76/101.66 dB for Ch1/Ch2 22.5 kHz bandwidth @ full power, I would say it exceeds Denon's spec of 102 dB IHF-A weighted. Denon did not specify the output level for the 102 dB S/N so it most likely is based on at full rated power output.

 

[Castortroy3]

Whose to say these capacitors were only used in the 6700. Does each model really. Have a different capacitor?