I can't believe Qobuz support was never added to HEOS. Does anyone actually use HEOS? Many better options are available like Audirvana, WiiM and more?
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Denon AVR-X6700H AVR Review (Updated)
- Thread starter amirm
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I can't believe Qobuz support was never added to HEOS. Does anyone actually use HEOS? Many better options are available like Audirvana, WiiM and more?
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Nah never. I use an Upnp player or what ever these things are called. Currently mconnect for iOs. (I hear BubbleUpnp is good for android. ). Does Quobuz, Tidal, NAS etc.
Archaea
Active Member
@amirm
Does this post make sense in the context of outputting more than 4 volt if the subwoofer channel trim is -12dB and MLV is only 0dB reference?
Also @bigguyca
Post 2
www.audiosciencereview.com
It doesn’t seem to align when your test in the AVR review screen printed here:
————
Does this post make sense in the context of outputting more than 4 volt if the subwoofer channel trim is -12dB and MLV is only 0dB reference?
Also @bigguyca
Post 2
Bass-management headroom - how to avoid clipping your sub out
Clipping of the low frequency signal somewhere in the chain is a real problem, and care must be taken to ensure this does not happen. This is a solved problem, it is known. Still, I can not see that this issue is tested for in the processor/avr reviews here on this site. Sub out from...
www.audiosciencereview.com
It doesn’t seem to align when your test in the AVR review screen printed here:
————
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@amirm
Does this post make sense in the context of outputting more than 4 volt if the subwoofer channel trim is -12dB and MLV is only 0dB reference?
Also @bigguyca
Post 2
Bass-management headroom - how to avoid clipping your sub out
Clipping of the low frequency signal somewhere in the chain is a real problem, and care must be taken to ensure this does not happen. This is a solved problem, it is known. Still, I can not see that this issue is tested for in the processor/avr reviews here on this site. Sub out from...
It doesn’t seem to align when your test in the AVR review screen printed here:
————
View attachment 245110
Summing signals for the bass channel
The post you have referenced isn't very well written since it doesn't document the setup conditions. Your post and the reference post do seem to reflect a lack of knowledge in how bass management works in Denon equipment.
First to your question:
The reference post "seems" to be adding together the output of eight channels at 0dBFS. Let's say 0dBFS is 2Vrms output. If the eight channels are coherent the output would be 2Vrms x 8 = 16Vrms expected from the bass channel assuming that all eight channels will have all 100% of their signal sent to the bass channel. That seems nonsense, but for the sake of argument let's proceed.
16Vrms - 12dB = 4Vrms maximum from the bass channel before clipping.
That part is rather obvious.
In the real world, however with perfect crossovers to make the discussion simpler, the digital signal below the crossover frequency from each speaker, 80Hz is common, is sent to the bass channel. The sum of these digital signals is reproduced by the bass channel.
A potential problem is obvious from the simple statement above. The signal sent to the bass channel is digital, the AVR doesn't "know" the sum of the bass from all the channels in advance. Within limits this sum could be anything. In addition, in this digital world it is the peak of the summed digital signals that has to be reproduced. The convenient idea a DAC IC produces, for example a rated 2Vrms at 0dBS is true, but actually at 0dBFS the DAC is producing the peak of the RMS signal which is higher. That fact is just conveniently ignored in higher level discussions, but of course this can lead to problems. The sum of the peaks from several lower-level uncorrelated RMS voltages can have an occasional peak of much a greater value. The sum of the peaks must fall at 0dBFS or below. 0dBFS is hard limit for our purposes here.
So how does Denon handle this unknown peak digital signal?
The bass channel in a Denon AVR (Marantz also of course) subtracts 20dB from the digital sum of the bass from all the channels. This gives 20dB of digital headroom to account for the sum of the peaks. Evidently Denon did studies and found 20dB is a good number. Remember this is the sum of the bass signals below the crossover, not the entire signal from a non-bass channel. See further below concerning use of another value by another vendor.
The filter section after the DAC IC for a bass channel has a gain of 6dB in the analog world. A non-bass channel has a gain of 0dB.
The remainder of the lost gain is supplied by gain from the volume control. The volume control has a large amount of potential gain since it has a variable resistor network with a wide range around an internal opamp. This gain is supplied at the cost of added distortion in the bass channel since the gain is no longer available for feedback. This added distortion isn't a significant issue since the volume control is most linear in the bass region where distortion is very low. The distortion from the volume control will be much lower than that of the distortion from a subwoofer in any case.
A decision is made by each AVR or associated software vendor as to how to handle the sum of the digital signals from the regular channels that is sent to the bass channel.
Still trying to decide between the current 4700 and 6700 or wait for the 4800. I have an ATI-AT1823 to power the LCR and I am only running a 7.2 setup. I was told by Denon Tech support that unless I was using all channels from either unit, I could not turn of the speakers on the LR channels so both speakers and pre out would be running. I was tryng to just have the pre out connected on the LR to get better voltage and less noise to the LR channels. Also allowing more power to the Surround channels from the internal amps.
Thanks
That's not true, not entirely anyway.
Try this for the X6700H. Of course, since you don't yet own an X6700H that's a big hard! The manuals aren't very helpful. Onward:
Use the online manual as a reference, the .pdf version doesn't provide the same information.
Amp Assign AVR-X6700H
Based on the online manual set:
Assign mode = 13.1 ch
Under Pre-out:
Floor = (not set here, but settings described here.) Either setting described under Pre-out would seem to work in your case. 5ch & SB is the Floor default setting and should work in your case.
Pre-out = Front
Hope this helps.
Can you clarify? I do not need Dirac and can get a 6700 at a good price for that matter I can get a 4700 at a good price as well. It would be nice if I can have the LR fronts working on just the RCA outs. It may help a bit with noise and voltage.
Thanks
Of course, but bigguyca have done it already in post#427.
I see that, but I am not a tech guy at all. If I follow that I can dis able the speaker out terminals and just use the RCA for the Font channels? And will it increase the voltage to the ATI amp and will it reduce noise on those 2 channels?
Thanks
Okay then let's try to explain it a little more in non technical terms.
For the X3700H, X4700H and X6700H:
1) No, the speaker out terminals are not disabled as such unless you engage the pramp mode.
2) Yes, you can use the amp assign feature to assign the front left and front right channel internal power amps to "pre out".
3) By doing 2), the front left and front right channel pre outs will be disconnected from the front left/right internal power amp inputs.
4) Because of 3), when you crank the volume up, because the front left/right pre out will remain "cleaner", that is, at low distortions levels up to about 4 V.
5) No, doing 2), the pre out voltage won't increase, but again, at the same voltage above say 1.4 to 1.5 V, distortions will be lowered and remain lower.
6) Same for the preamp mode, except in preamp mode, all internal power amp channels will be disconnected from the pre outs so you cannot use any of them.
7) By using the amp assign feature to disconnect the front left/right channel internal amps, the other 7 channels of internal amps will remain connected to the pre outs so you can use those amps to power your center, surround, back, Atmos/height channels if you wish.
The X3800H, presumably same for the X4800H, has the more flexible amp assign feature that allows you to disconnect any, or all of the internal power amps, for example, the left, right and center only so you can use the internal amps for the surround, back and Atmos/height channels.
Below is link to the screenshot for the X4700H, thanks to Steve Dallas. It shows you how to assign the front L/R channels to pre out.
Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)
This will be fixed in next week's firmware update, should arrive on Wednesday the 4th :) It is already 'fixed', if you set a maximum volume level.
www.audiosciencereview.com
Thanks that is great! Also I noticed the fronts were set to small. I believe on my old system with my SR8015, I had them set to large because I had large towers. Is there an advantage having them set to small. I will be running 2-10" powered subs and the Martin Logan towers are 60XT and have 2 8's in them.Okay then let's try to explain it a little more in non technical terms.
For the X3700H, X4700H and X6700H:
1) No, the speaker out terminals are not disabled as such unless you engage the pramp mode.
2) Yes, you can use the amp assign feature to assign the front left and front right channel internal power amps to "pre out".
3) By doing 2), the front left and front right channel pre outs will be disconnected from the front left/right internal power amp inputs.
4) Because of 3), when you crank the volume up, because the front left/right pre out will remain "cleaner", that is, at low distortions levels up to about 4 V.
5) No, doing 2), the pre out voltage won't increase, but again, at the same voltage above say 1.4 to 1.5 V, distortions will be lowered and remain lower.
6) Same for the preamp mode, except in preamp mode, all internal power amp channels will be disconnected from the pre outs so you cannot use any of them.
7) By using the amp assign feature to disconnect the front left/right channel internal amps, the other 7 channels of internal amps will remain connected to the pre outs so you can use those amps to power your center, surround, back, Atmos/height channels if you wish.
The X3800H, presumably same for the X4800H, has the more flexible amp assign feature that allows you to disconnect any, or all of the internal power amps, for example, the left, right and center only so you can use the internal amps for the surround, back and Atmos/height channels.
Below is link to the screenshot for the X4700H, thanks to Steve Dallas. It shows you how to assign the front L/R channels to pre out.
Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)
This will be fixed in next week's firmware update, should arrive on Wednesday the 4th :) It is already 'fixed', if you set a maximum volume level.
Thanks
In my opinion, even very large towers should be set to small, for the best bass integration with the subwoofers. There is no downside to set them to small, as you can always try different crossover points and then settle on the one that sounds and measures the best. Some people think setting their large tower to "large" will get them better bass response, that could be true to them because of a) they happened to like the FR response for that combination, b) Placebo effect influence their perceived sound quality, or there are other factors. I would set them to "large" only if I don't use the subwoofers.
This is how run my Wharfedale EVO 4.4's in '2-channel setup' compared to the 11.1 setup for movies;
In 2 channel setup you find a possibility to make changes which I belief is really helpful. Since the fronts are not connected to any internal amp this gives a clean signal.
In 2 channel setup you find a possibility to make changes which I belief is really helpful. Since the fronts are not connected to any internal amp this gives a clean signal.
With the 89 dB sensitive EVO 4.4, and 30-200 W max. recommended amp power, your pre out voltage requirement you should get clean signal regardless of internal amp connected or not unless you have no gain power amp and/or listen at levels that require close to the speaker's 200 W limit. But of course it is good to disconnect the internal amps even just because you can.
I am only mentioning this in case some people who cannot do so may be worrying about nothing.Another question that may not make sense but, I will ask anyway. Weather the Marantz cinema 40 or 50 and or the Denon 4700, 6700, 3800, 4800. When you used amp assign and disconnect the LR or LCR in the newer models. to get less distortion and higher output voltage, Does the sound still go through the HDAM's in Marantz or the output chip in the Denon as they do not use HDAM. If Not does my ATI AT1823 have something similar? Are RCA out like a pure direct signal? Thanks again
Let me be very clear about the pre out voltage vs THD as I am not sure if you understand this part. That is, the pre out voltage is not fixed but varies with the following:
- the volume setting, obviously in the absolute scale, 0 would give you 0 V and in the relative scale, or -80 in the relative scale.
- at any volume setting, the output will still vary with the input voltage, so even at maximum volume, the output voltage will be, or should be, ideally 0 V when the input signal, that is, music or movie is at 0, such as the quiet moment between tracks of a music album.
- with the LCR internal amp disconnected, distortions of those Denon units will be the same as when the internal amps are connected, until about 1.4 to 1.5 V, at higher voltage, it would increase quickly and then would settle at about 0.018%, whereas if the internal amps are disconnected it would remain low at about 0.0018% until about 4 V.
For the Marantz, the HDAMs are positioned right at the end of the pre out signal path but since the SR6014 or newer models there appear to be an extra opamp added after the HDAM, that's where the pre out voltage would be measured as it would then be the last "chip" in the signal path. If I remember right it might have been @bigguyca who mentioned that (sorry if I remember wrong), and it seemed to be only added to the front left and right channel pre out signal path.
Regardless, for the Marantz, yes, the signal always go through the HDAMs. Denon does not have the HDAMs, otherwise the signal paths are the same as Marantz if you compare the 4500 and 6014, 7013 etc., not sure about the 4700 but I think it is reasonable to assume they are the same but without seeing at least some block diagrams it is just an assumption.
On your last point, no, RCA has nothing to do with "like a pure direct signal". It is just a type of audio signal connector:
RCA connector - Wikipedia
I have nowhere near the hardware expertise you guys have here but I do a lot of REW measurements. I guess one thing I have figured with these receievers might help clarify the subwoofer preout voltages. When you send a signal directed to the subwoofer channel that contains no frequency above around 2,000Hz through HDMI, these receivers percieve it as an LFE signal (the .1 channel in dolby x.1.y format) and boosts the sub volume. The boost gradually increases with the degree of the highest frequency receieved. When I run a sine sweep between 20Hz-200Hz the sub volume will be boosted by 10dB as per the Dolby LFE channel standards. With every setting the same, a 20Hz-20000Hz sweep will result in a 10dB lower magnitude response for the same sub. And a 20Hz-1800Hz sweep will still be lowered by 1-2dB!
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And not exactly relevant to the topic discussed here but there's also another technical issue that I've experienced with these receievers which I believe should be criticized in an ASR review: The speaker distance accuracy is definetely not 0.01cm as claimed in the set up menus or the apps. The minimum they can adjust the distance is 3-4cm in an average 3m speaker distance. The impulse peak of the speaker response will not move AT ALL for 3 consecutive distance settings and then will suddenly jump 5 cm away at the 4th next setting. The inaccuracy gets much worse with the subwoofer distances which are typically longer. I guess there's a chip they're using which is only accurate to 3-4 cm min and the setup menu is is designed to mask that. My measurements are very accurate. I don't use a USB mic as they have internal clocking issues.
PS: The new Marantz Cinema 50 is also the same.
PS: The new Marantz Cinema 50 is also the same.
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