Denon AVR-X6700H AVR Review (Updated)

[Bindou]

Are there any Denon 2020 series users around ?
If you have speakers set to (Large) + one Sub and you haven't changed the initial delays calculated by the amp, you can try the following; in option Audio / Bass Sync -> add 5 ms. See the miracle ...
(The option is only available for multichannel sources with LFE channel) (The optimal offset is the same on all HDMI sources and even CEC from Netflix from the TV)

 

[tonydeluce]

New Sound and Vision review of the Denon AVR-x6700h :

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x6700h-112-channel-av-receiver-review

 

[Bindou]

Here I understood what was missing from these amps! It's disappointing and bordering on scandalous ... Denon / Marantz amp users don't know ... Without this function, it's actually catastrophic -> http://fr.allreadable.com/f21eGiSW

Pioneer has been offering the solution since 2012, while Denon / Marantz is still manual.

This is essential to get the LFE signal in phase with the rest! This problem is apparently ignored by audiophiles. With the best gear in the world, the rendering of every second film / concert will be absolutely zero in the bass.

You get used to mediocrity ... The Marantz / Denon group has to get up to speed! It is absolutely elementary.Je ne comprends pas comment les utilisateurs et les constructeurs ont pu le manquer pendant si longtemps. : /

It deserves a topic on Reddit

 

[Docrog]

New member & new to this discussion. I'm considering purchase of the X6700H for my 7.2.6 capable home theater, but I have a question that I'm hoping can be definitively answered here. I would like to bi-amp my front mains, making use of reassigning the speaker posts/amplifier associated with Height 3/Front Wide. According to page 73 of the manual, this would maximize my configuration to 7.2.2 (9.1 channel playback, 11 channels of amplification if bi-amped). However, I also have an external 4 channel amplifier for the remaining overhead speakers via the AVR pre-outs. I've been told that, despite the pre-outs being always "hot", the X6700H is fully limited to 7.2.2 when bi-amped. This makes no sense to me, because it seems that the speaker configuration pattern (channel processing) should be independent of how the internal amplifiers are assigned (no union of the 2 sets?). If that's the case, there would be no reason for me to upgrade to the Denon from my current Yamaha AVR's 7.2.4 (11 processed channels) capability. Could anyone comment on whether there are constraints imposed on maximal channel processing in my case? Thanks!

 

[Corock]

This problem is apparently ignored by audiophiles, however, with the best gear in the world, the rendering of one film / concert in two will be absolutely crappy in the bass. : oldy:

I wouldn't say it's ignored. Your subs can never be in phase with the mains at all frequencies, so the technology you quote must be picking one of the frequencies for you (80hz?). If however, an audiophile has sub(s) with variable phase then they have control over what frequency is in phase.

In the graph below the blue line is my subs at 180 degrees where the X6700h Audyssey calibration was done. I then adjusted my phase until the bass sounded the loudest to my ear, which is at 90 degrees, resulting in the red line. At 55hz - 65hz my bass is certainly louder but it comes at the expense of the 75hz -115hz range. However, I get to chose whatever is right for me, I'm not stuck with whatever a preprogramed piece of technology has determined.

In my testing I have my crossovers set at 80hz even though Audyssey had set them to 40hz. I also have an 8.5db house curve applied via the Audyssey app. And I have the room compensation on my subs set to "large room" to remove the standing bass waves in the 10hz-20hz range.

 

[Docrog]

Can anyone answer the following question: Is it possible to achieve a 7.2.6 configuration by externally amping the front main channels (via appropriate pre-outs) and then driving & processing the remaining 5 bed channels and 3 pairs of overheads (11 total channels requiring Denon amplification) from their respective X6700H speaker terminals? This particular configuration is not shown in the manual. Thanks!

 

[Sancus]

If you have speakers set to (Large)

It's not recommended(see crossover section of AVSForum Audyssey FAQ) to EVER set speakers to Large unless you don't have a subwoofer. The LFE+Main setting is a disaster that makes no sense, and if you set speakers to Large without it, your subwoofer won't play bass from those channels, only from the LFE channel.

Just don't use Large, ever.

 

[Bindou]

I wouldn't say it's ignored. Your subs can never be in phase with the mains at all frequencies, so ...

No, it's not about that. This is the variable phase shift present in the multichannel audio stream (LFE / other channels)
-> http://fr.allreadable.com/f21eGiSW

Denon/Marantz and Sony is conscious, but has no automatic algorithm for that.
-> http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX4700H/NA/FR/WBSPSYvsbphziy.php
-> https://helpguide.sony.net/ha/strdn10686/v1/fr/contents/TP0000777236.html

 

[Bindou]

It's not recommended(see crossover section of AVSForum Audyssey FAQ) to EVER set speakers to Large unless you don't have a subwoofer. The LFE+Main setting is a disaster that makes no sense, and if you set speakers to Large without it, your subwoofer won't play bass from those channels, only from the LFE channel.

Just don't use Large, ever.

It doesn't make sense with an amp that can't handle. But when it's managed well, the payoff is absolutely "colossal". The fact of having a multitute of bass transmitters in line in front of you, confers a more homogeneous bass (less knots) in the piece, and a dynamic which never crumbles.

You won't, but if you're really curious, try an amp that has auto-phasing algorithm. And put your speakers in Large. You will rediscover your multi-channel soundtracks.

And anyway, the problem also arises if the speakers are small ... (since the problem lies in the delay of the low frequencies that there is in the input signal)

Sync/Basse (Bluray-Live)

(+-5 ms) :
Lee Retenour
Shakira
Stromae
Amy Winehouse (DTS-HD)
Calogero (DTS-HD)
David Foster


0 ms :
Destiny's Child
Ayo
This IS it
Adèle
Ben l'oncle soul (DTS-HD)
Chris Botti in Boston (TrueHD)
Hans Zimmer

 

[Docrog]

Is it possible to completely disable ALL video processing in the X6700H (true pass through) with a single setting or does it require multiple individual entries within setup? Thanks!

 

[Corock]

Just received my Middle Atlantic face plate for the X6700H that I spec'd out for them, so they should have it available in their inventory now.

 

[Sancus]

It doesn't make sense with an amp that can't handle. But when it's managed well, the payoff is absolutely "colossal". The fact of having a multitute of bass transmitters in line in front of you, confers a more homogeneous bass (less knots) in the piece, and a dynamic which never crumbles.

If you want smoother bass, you use multiple subwoofers. You don't use improper settings in the AVR.

 

[Docrog]

Well, so far none of my questions have merited responses, but hope springs eternal.... my large front speakers will be re-set to "small" after running Audyssey for the first time. If all of my 7.x.6 speakers are, therefore, set to "small" would I choose the subwoofer setting to be "LFE" or "LFE + "Main" in order to deliver proper bass to the entire speaker configuration?

 

[MaxTemp]

Well, so far none of my questions have merited responses, but hope springs eternal.... my large front speakers will be re-set to "small" after running Audyssey for the first time. If all of my 7.x.6 speakers are, therefore, set to "small" would I choose the subwoofer setting to be "LFE" or "LFE + "Main" in order to deliver proper bass to the entire speaker configuration?

Just LFE. Never use LFE + Main.

 

[Docrog]

Just LFE. Never use LFE + Main.

Thanks for your reply. Could you explain why you wouldn't choose LFE + Main if the main speakers are reclassified as "small", with the Audyssey crossover set at 90 (80)Hz? Would front channel low frequency still be sent to the subs if the setting were LFE (only)? In what circumstance would the user choose "LFE + Main"?

 

[bigguyca]

Well, so far none of my questions have merited responses, but hope springs eternal.... my large front speakers will be re-set to "small" after running Audyssey for the first time. If all of my 7.x.6 speakers are, therefore, set to "small" would I choose the subwoofer setting to be "LFE" or "LFE + "Main" in order to deliver proper bass to the entire speaker configuration?

You asked the same question on the AVSForum, which I answered:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/of...rs-thread-faq-posts-1-8.3151088/post-60333976

You said you found the answer acceptable:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/of...rs-thread-faq-posts-1-8.3151088/post-60334439

Frankly your sort of user is why I usually don't answer questions concerning use of equipment. It's a waste of time at best.

Your question concerning LFE + Main has been answered dozens on times on AVSForum. You have 2,000 posts on the AVSForum. If must ask the questions again, the AVSForum in the 2020 Denon thread, would likely be a better location.

Your attitude seems to be that members here and on the AVSForum owe you answers, and prompt answers at that.

 

[Docrog]

You asked the same question on the AVSForum, which I answered:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/of...rs-thread-faq-posts-1-8.3151088/post-60333976

You said you found the answer acceptable:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/of...rs-thread-faq-posts-1-8.3151088/post-60334439

Frankly your sort of user is why I usually don't answer questions concerning use of equipment. It's a waste of time at best.

Your question concerning LFE + Main has been answered dozens on times on AVSForum. You have 2,000 posts on the AVSForum. If must ask the questions again, the AVSForum in the 2020 Denon thread, would likely be a better location.

Your attitude seems to be that members here and on the AVSForum owe you answers, and prompt answers at that.

It's unfortunate that you find the fact that I post variations of my questions in more than venue, but I have no idea whether I'll be successful in gaining the information I need to make my decision in either (or both) forum settings. The title for this forum would imply that is specifically geared for questions pertaining to the X6700H, so it would seem to be an appropriate place for my inquiries.

Despite your statement there that you normally didn't respond to operational questions because that wasn't your forte, I did, indeed, thank you for your extensive reply on AVS Forum. However, the information that you provided included "seems likely" and "it isn't clear to me" more than once and, furthermore, didn't entirely address my concerns as to whether or not upgrading from my flagship Yamaha 7.2.4 AVR to a 7.2.6 Denon AVR would provide what I hoped to accomplish. My questions arose despite my having read all of the relevant sections in the on-line manual. In fact, JD Smoothie subsequently confirmed that, if I externally bi-amped my front speakers, I could run the remaining 11 speakers (5 bed, 6 overhead) for a full 13 channel configuration, despite the fact that that the schematics for that specific speaker configuration did NOT appear in the manual.

A question regarding the efficacy of "LFE + Main" setting is entirely relevant to my setup because of the absence of any significant verbiage in the Denon user manual and the strong possibility that it doesn't conform to that same function/applicability in the Yamaha.

Being in my mid-70s and having participated in Home Theater A/V since the early 1980s (well before the term HT was popularized), I'm hoping that the potential purchase of the X6700H will represent my final AVR as I have no interest in adding additional speakers in the future. I've participated in many A/V forums over the past 15+ years, trying to provide assistance when appropriate and asking questions (and follow-up) when I, too, needed help. If that makes me the "sort of user" who wastes your time then please ignore me going forward.

 

[peng]

A question regarding the efficacy of "LFE + Main" setting is entirely relevant to my setup because of the absence of any significant verbiage in the Denon user manual and the strong possibility that it doesn't conform to that same function/applicability in the Yamaha.

If you posted on AVSF before, has anyone suggested you ask Audyssey directly?

If not, would their response below (the bolded part, i.e. 2. answer your question?
Help on Audyssey Set up – Ask Audyssey (zendesk.com)

Audyssey LabsFebruary 24, 2012 09:47

1. Speakers should always be set to Small if you have a subwoofer. It doesn't matter if you are listening to music or movies. But Audyssey is not responsible for making this choice. The AVR is doing it based on the roll off found. It looks like in your case the roll off is near 40 Hz so that's what Marantz uses as the decision point to set speakers to Large. I highly recommend setting them to Small. You can leave the crossover at 40 Hz as found or move it up slightly. The speaker levels are not low. They are set so that all speakers in the system play at the same level. Because each speaker has different sensitivity and is at different listening distance, these numbers can vary. If you want to listen louder, just turn up the master volume. That way everything moves up and down in level together.
2. LFE only. LFE+Main is a bad setting because it overlaps the bass in the sub and speakers resulting in boomy bass.
3. Audyssey calibrates each speaker individually by looking at the acoustical problems it has in the room. These problems have nothing to do with content. However, by setting speakers to Large you are missing out on the much higher filter resolution that MultEQ has in the subwoofer channel.
4. MultEQ improves the performance of each speaker whether you are using 1 or 11.

Edit: I should add two additional points:

A) In 3) above, XT32 offers the same resolution for all channels, not just the subwoofer channel.

B) LFE+M really is only applicable if the front left and right are set to "Large". If set to small, the subwoofer channel will still get the same signal according to the crossover setting regardless. It could be confusing or misleading to some, because with the speakers set to small, you can still sub "bass" to LFE+M, but again it won't do anything different in that case.

 

[Docrog]

If you posted on AVSF before, has anyone suggested you ask Audyssey directly?

If not, would their response below (the bolded part, i.e. 2. answer your question?
Help on Audyssey Set up – Ask Audyssey (zendesk.com)

Audyssey LabsFebruary 24, 2012 09:47

1. Speakers should always be set to Small if you have a subwoofer. It doesn't matter if you are listening to music or movies. But Audyssey is not responsible for making this choice. The AVR is doing it based on the roll off found. It looks like in your case the roll off is near 40 Hz so that's what Marantz uses as the decision point to set speakers to Large. I highly recommend setting them to Small. You can leave the crossover at 40 Hz as found or move it up slightly. The speaker levels are not low. They are set so that all speakers in the system play at the same level. Because each speaker has different sensitivity and is at different listening distance, these numbers can vary. If you want to listen louder, just turn up the master volume. That way everything moves up and down in level together.
2. LFE only. LFE+Main is a bad setting because it overlaps the bass in the sub and speakers resulting in boomy bass.
3. Audyssey calibrates each speaker individually by looking at the acoustical problems it has in the room. These problems have nothing to do with content. However, by setting speakers to Large you are missing out on the much higher filter resolution that MultEQ has in the subwoofer channel.
4. MultEQ improves the performance of each speaker whether you are using 1 or 11.

Thanks for providing that summary. I've recently been provided a link to an extensive guide to Audyssey and plan on reading it entirely prior installing my X6700H in January. I now understand that Denon's terminology of LFE + Main is consistent with the term "Extra Bass"(Yamaha) "Double Bass" (Onkyo) that other AVR manufacturers use. In the early days of HT, LFE (Low Frequency EFFECT) was a term which only applied to the limited .1 channel and not overall bass management. As a new (1st time) Denon owner I wanted to make sure to get my initial settings to be as optimal as possible.

 

[bo_knows]

Thanks for providing that summary. I've recently been provided a link to an extensive guide to Audyssey and plan on reading it entirely prior installing my X6700H in January. I now understand that Denon's terminology of LFE + Main is consistent with the term "Extra Bass"(Yamaha) "Double Bass" (Onkyo) that other AVR manufacturers use. In the early days of HT, LFE (Low Frequency EFFECT) was a term which only applied to the limited .1 channel and not overall bass management. As a new (1st time) Denon owner I wanted to make sure to get my initial settings to be as optimal as possible.

You are not the only one. We are learning all the time. I had my system configured the same way as you described and thought I was smart enough to integrate the sub and front speakers for the two-channel listening thinking sub will just extend and covered low bass frequencies where I thought my front will drop off. Listening was done in pure direct mode. I was wrong... Downloaded REW and made some measurements. I could clearly see that my front speakers had a flatter response on their own vs with the sub. So much for tunning with my ears. Shutting the sub down resulted in less but more clear bass that was still deep enough (flat to 30Hz in my room). Now, after reading the AVSF Audyssey article, I will spend some time to find the best spot for the sub and use LFE ONLY for the music. If that sounds better than my two front speakers, great. If not, this configuration will be used for home theater duties.