Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[soerenssen]

The DAC in the 4800 is fully transparent. I can tell zero difference between the 4800's DAC and my outboard Schiit Modius, which has a SINAD of around 115.

This is my current system, BTW:

View attachment 329832

I purchased a DL license for it to use in 2 channel mode, but I have not calibrated it yet. It sounds great with Audyssey.

The Peachtree has an ESS Sabre DAC. It cannot be connected directly to the PC via USB?
Very similar to my high SINAD DAC vs AVR dilemma though, you could just use the AVR as a DAC for your R3, so thank you for the good example!

 

[Steve Dallas]

The Peachtree has an ESS Sabre DAC. It cannot be connected directly to the PC via USB?
Very similar to my high SINAD DAC vs AVR dilemma though, you could just use the AVR as a DAC for your R3, so thank you for the good example!

Well, I got caught up in the SINAD wars for a little while and chased it for a bit. (The Peachtree's DAC SINAD is ~85dB.) I could certainly take the Modius out of the chain in both rooms as I hear no difference. I just use them because I have them.

Honestly, in the home theater, when listening to music in stereo, I mostly use Heos as the source and keep everything in the AVR. It sounds great.

 

[SCG]

Between a properly set up Audyssey MultEQ-X and DLBC system I don't expect much difference either. Especially if I set the curtain to 500Hz or lower. But I don't have the option to use Audyssey on the 2.2 chain, it requires an AVR that must be bought in advance, even before you buy the MultEQ-X licence

Not sure exactly what you mean here, but for clarity sake, you can buy the MultEQ-X license before deciding/buying the AVR and then connect the license to the AVR once purchased/setup, as long as it's compatible with MultEQ-X .

 

[peng]

Well, I got caught up in the SINAD wars for a little while and chased it for a bit. (The Peachtree's DAC SINAD is ~85dB.) I could certainly take the Modius out of the chain in both rooms as I hear no difference. I just use them because I have them.

Honestly, in the home theater, when listening to music in stereo, I mostly use Heos as the source and keep everything in the AVR. It sounds great.

SINAD war has been ongoing since time begin, only that most use the term THD+N, and often skipped the "N" just for convenience.
The trouble is, subjectivists, that include reviewers, even the highly technical ones such as JA, don't seem to be able to trust their own measurements and still wonder about the perceived sound quality that only certain gear process and if the measured results are pristine, they will simplify say there are things that are not measured. Such an argument, or belief are typically baseless, even illogical, but it is what it is. We all know that lots of people don't believe in know science that are totally verifiable, let alone science that are still evolving, e.g. some (not all, as some are proven) Covid related, or climate change stuff..

Baseless, illogical, because they have been unable to even proposed what gives their beloved amps (just one example) sound quality signature, that defy the typically very low THD+N < 0.01%, IMD <0.05%, crosss talk >60 dB, FR flat 20-20,000 Hz, SNR/DR >100 dB, DF >100 from 20-20,000 Hz and more..

Why would the AVM90 sounds so much better, light head and shoulder, night and day kind of better? They will point to the "upgraded audio circuitry" and better components/parts, that's the same kind of claims by other manufacturers who claimed using expensive OPAs, tubes, DAC chips, HDAMs etc..

I believe manufacturers know if they publish enough blurbs on the so called upgraded audio circuit and use better parts, people will pay a lot more for the claimed better sound signature because they have given them the reasons for the better signatures.

 

[peng]

The Peachtree has an ESS Sabre DAC. It cannot be connected directly to the PC via USB?
Very similar to my high SINAD DAC vs AVR dilemma though, you could just use the AVR as a DAC for your R3, so thank you for the good example!

ESS dac means little unless you know which one. Like TI and CirrusLigic/Wolfson they make many different models with SINAD specs ranging from the soso low 90's to SOTA class of over 120. Peachtree's, being quite expensive, likely have the better ones and ahould work with Async USB too.

 

[Steve Dallas]

ESS dac means little unless you know which one. Like TI and CirrusLigic/Wolfson they make many different models with SINAD specs ranging from the soso low 90's to SOTA class of over 120. Peachtree's, being quite expensive, likely have the better ones and ahould work with Async USB too.

As luck would have it, I sent one of my Nova 300s to Amir for measurement. Very disappointing DAC implementation:

Peachtree Nova 300 Review (Dac & Amplifier)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Peachtree Nova 300 integrated amplifier with DAC and phono stage. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $2,199. The Nova 300 fits in the same chassis Peachtree has successfully used for last 15 years: It is quite beefy and heavy...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Which is why I use a Schiit Modius outboard DAC with each of them (whether I actually benefit or not):

Schiit Modius Balanced DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Schiit Modius Balanced USB DAC. It was kindly sent to me by the company for testing. The Modius costs just US $199 which is quite cheap for a balanced DAC from a western company. The design language is Schiit all the way (sorry, could not...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[peng]

As luck would have it, I sent one of my Nova 300s to Amir for measurement. Very disappointing DAC implementation:

Peachtree Nova 300 Review (Dac & Amplifier)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Peachtree Nova 300 integrated amplifier with DAC and phono stage. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $2,199. The Nova 300 fits in the same chassis Peachtree has successfully used for last 15 years: It is quite beefy and heavy...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Which is why I use a Schiit Modius outboard DAC with each of them (whether I actually benefit or not):

Schiit Modius Balanced DAC Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Schiit Modius Balanced USB DAC. It was kindly sent to me by the company for testing. The Modius costs just US $199 which is quite cheap for a balanced DAC from a western company. The design language is Schiit all the way (sorry, could not...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Mid range, even some high range integrated amps would cheapen out on dac chips because they know anything that can do SINAD >95 dB will be audibly good enough. The Nova 300 is among the exceptions, that it does use an ESS reference class DAC chip, the ES9018K2M (unless they didn't actually use that one in their production units), same one used in the Denon AVC-A1H and Marantz AV10, yet the AV10 managed >105 dB SINAD, so yes somehow Nova 300 did not do good in implementation. I wonder why, it is not rocket science, ESS would even tell them how to do it if they asked lol..

 

[Steve Dallas]

Mid range, even some high range integrated amps would cheapen out on dac chips because they know anything that can do SINAD >95 dB will be audibly good enough. The Nova 300 is among the exceptions, that it does use an ESS reference class DAC chip, the ES9018K2M (unless they didn't actually use that one in their production units), same one used in the Denon AVC-A1H and Marantz AV10, yet the AV10 managed >105 dB SINAD, so yes somehow Nova 300 did not do good in implementation. I wonder why, it is not rocket science, ESS would even tell them how to do it if they asked lol..

I don't want to derail the thread much more, but for all we know, Peachtree is one of those companies that builds in some distortion for extra "euphonics" or some such. While disappointed with measured DAC performance, I can't really hear any issues with it, and I dig the amount of power the amp has and its other features. When I purchased mine, Peachtree would occasionally sell cosmetic blems for as little as $1,000 each, which is the sales channel I used.

 

[peng]

This is for the piece of mind, without actually going down too much into the rabbit hole, which I really appreciate you trying to save me from.

I would suggest that for the peace of mind, it may be better for you to grab the Umik-1 and do some measurements to see how your Reference 3 are doing in your room and placement. If you have a not too good one such as my 2ch setup that shares the HT room, then DL is going to make a lot more audible improvements than a better DAC or AVR/AVP.

See that nasty suck out in the 45 to 60 Hz range, DL has done its best, I could tweak for hours and improve it by may be 2 dB, that won't really help. At least the right channel looks much better. To deal with this issue, I would need to add one or two subs and then see how well DLBC can do some wonder.

So, as others have suggested, I wouldn't worry much about dacs, just use DL, or Audyssey and see what happens.

 

[soerenssen]

I would suggest that for the peace of mind, it may be better for you to grab the Umik-1 and do some measurements to see how your Reference 3 are doing in your room and placement. If you have a not too good one such as my 2ch setup that shares the HT room, then DL is going to make a lot more audible improvements than a better DAC or AVR/AVP.

See that nasty suck out in the 45 to 60 Hz range, DL has done its best, I could tweak for hours and improve it by may be 2 dB, that won't really help. At least the right channel looks much better. To deal with this issue, I would need to add one or two subs and then see how well DLBC can do some wonder.

So, as others have suggested, I wouldn't worry much about dacs, just use DL, or Audyssey and see what happens.

View attachment 330110

Solid advice, thank you! You already identified the issue in your room and made the necessary steps to remediate it.

I know (I can hear) that I have an issue with bass in my room but I am currently missing basic components, that I would buy regardless of the room. I cannot wait to get started with room correction / passive room treatment, but we are moving in 3 months so I wouldn't spend on room treatment in the current room. On the other hand, identifying the exact issue in the response will be a fun exercise as part of getting familiar with REW for sure, so I'll do it and come back with the results in another topic. Speaking of measurements, tomorrow morning I'll have an audiogram too!

These are the things I'm planning to buy in any case:
- two subs to complement the mains and for more even bass across 3 seats (3 sealed to complement my ported sub for HT, because I am reading everywhere that for music sealed subs are better, however, once DLBC is engaged, I don't know how much it actually matters. When I had basic Dirac on the x4800h, I was shocked how much better my old ported sub sounds, before that it was always boomy, I never liked it regardless of placement)
- AVR for 5.3 and later on 5.3.2, with 2.1 HDMI eARC, so I can connect everything to my AVR instead of the TV
- power amp(s) at least for the mains or ideally for LCR, so the AVR would drive only the 2 surrounds (longevity, less heat)
- active heating for the x4800h because it can get hot even with the external amp

In parallel, now that I have the desktop version of stereo Dirac with DLBC, I would add an external DAC with SOTA performance, to experiment with a 2.2 system (subs and mains shared with the x4800h) with a clean, fully balanced pipeline and no Dirac downsampling. I won't attach the Wiim Pro either, to avoid the conversion from coax to balanced. This system (with a 5V DM7 for example) could also fully power an NCx500 at mid gain (requires 2.67V, so Audyssey should adjust the levels accordingly on the Denon for HT because of the lower voltage pre-outs). The bigger Purifi would be no problem for the Denon though.

Maybe I won't hear a difference between the Denon (with Audyssey) and the DM7 (with DLBC). I think everyone is different and our ears are sensitive to different noises and frequencies. My PS5 with its Ufo sound coming from its NIDAC fan drives me crazy, even after I added O-rings under the fan screws. My wife has no problem with it. Others might be totally fine with it too.

 

[soerenssen]

Some days ago I was asking about 4800h zone 2 subwoofer (turns out this is not supported by virtually all AVRs, until you get to the integra 8.4), and In case anybody was curious (probably not), I went with following to create my own zone2 for music listening (this ‘zone’ uses a separate set of KEF R7 speakers in the room, but uses the same sub as what my 5.1 AVR tv/movies setup is using)

- music is played from iTunes lossless on Mac mini (controlled by the ‘remote’ app). Mac runs Dirac

- mac -> topping dm7

- topping into 2 of my external amp’s available channels for stereo channels. topping into y-splitter for subwoofer (So, both my avr and the topping go into the same subwoofer. Nah, I’m not gonna get a switch.)

The topping’s output cable for the subwoofer output is a balanced-> rca and thus loses 6db, but Dirac setup will correct for this.

I was gonna get the Mac mini anyway, so I just had to spend $500 more on the topping. I’ll have a very clean signal all the way to the kefs. “ I spit in the face of all avrs and their paltry zone2. their zone2 manuals will be the tinder on which they burn! “. Hahhh. (Stolen from Ronan the Accuser).

Did you do any measurements to compare the DM7 with the x4800h on the KEFs? Do you run stereo Dirac with or without DLBC on the Mac?

 

[soerenssen]

@peng I wanted to ask you what made you choose the desktop DLBC licence over waiting for DLBC to be released for the new Denons? I'm asking because you mentioned the x3700h (used or new?) for 800USD, but for 800EUR I recently saw a brand new x3800h recently. So if you sell the Dirac stereo licence and buy the stereo+DLBC during the BF week for the x3800h, it's very close.

(Edit: I updated my post after I realized, after reading back, that you don't have the x3700h yet. I guess you cannot use the AVM70 in the HT room for music in the other room, right?)

 

[peng]

@peng I wanted to ask you what made you choose the desktop DLBC licence over waiting for DLBC to be released for the new Denons? I'm asking because you mentioned the x3700h (used or new?) for 800USD, but for 800EUR I recently saw a brand new x3800h recently. So if you sell the Dirac stereo licence and buy the stereo+DLBC during the BF week for the x3800h, it's very close.

(Edit: I updated my post after I realized, after reading back, that you don't have the x3700h yet. I guess you cannot use the AVM70 in the HT room for music in the other room, right?)

1) As you now realize I don't have the 3700, my potential candidates for doing what I want in one of my 2 ch system are:
a) X3600H, X3700H, even X3500H, but I don't thing I can find one new, and am always skeptical of used ones that are out of warranty.
b) MOTU M4, but I am not sure if I spent $400 on the M4, how would I do volume control, to pair it with a 4 channel preamp or 2X2ch preamp is not going to be tricky.
c) Give up on using 2 subs with my BMRs, but just 1, in that case DLBC would seem under utilized, though with the discounts I wouldn't complaining much about it.

Ideally, I would like to use a real 2.2 receiver or integrated amp but there is no such animal that I am aware of. If Dirac has a smart and more risk taking marketing team, they would work with the likes of D+M, NAD, Arcam etc., to market a real 2.2 device instead of settling on the silly subwoofer outputs that are simply connected to the left/right channels no different than using Y-connectors externally.

To be clear, there are no 2.2 or even 2.1 contents for HT, but in my opinion, manufacturers should take a risk and do try marketing such a product if they would bet on room correction such as DL will soon gain popularity.

May be they are smart enough to know that 2 channel audiophiles are too ignorant to know that they could have much better perceptible sound quality by using a mid range gear such as DRA-9000H, NR1200 if such unit can take advantage of DLBC, or the likes of MSO that can integrate the bass of capable tower speakers and multiple subwoofers. It is probably a fact that the 2 channel crowds typically get fixated on the so called sound signature myth, such that they believe for example, there are night and day improvements simply by "upgrading" from their NR1200 to an Anthem STR integrated amp, yet in a DBT they would not be able to perceive much difference if at all, whereas the difference between with and without the use of RC such as DLBC would be much more obvious. In other words, it is likely true that people don't know what they miss, and keep chasing the wrong thing that only work because of their tendency to get easily influenced by marketing information and the price points of the so called high end gear.

 

[soerenssen]

Ideally, I would like to use a real 2.2 receiver or integrated amp but there is no such animal that I am aware of.

Harman Kardon HK 990? (No USB.)

 

[soerenssen]

May be they are smart enough to know that 2 channel audiophiles are too ignorant to know that they could have much better perceptible sound quality by using a mid range gear such as DRA-9000H, NR1200 if such unit can take advantage of DLBC, or the likes of MSO that can integrate the bass of capable tower speakers and multiple subwoofers. It is probably a fact that the 2 channel crowds typically get fixated on the so called sound signature myth, such that they believe for example, there are night and day improvements simply by "upgrading" from their NR1200 to an Anthem STR integrated amp, yet in a DBT they would not be able to perceive much difference if at all, whereas the difference between with and without the use of RC such as DLBC would be much more obvious. In other words, it is likely true that people don't know what they miss, and keep chasing the wrong thing that only work because of their tendency to get easily influenced by marketing information and the price points of the so called high end gear.

I don't have the experience with different amp classes and (perceived) "sound signatures", and as a mathematician I am more attracted to the numbers personally. But that can also mess up your thinking. Even without having first hand experience with the PC-DM7-NCx500 chain and while I'd really like the x4800h to be capable as one-box solution (except that it'd serve only DAC/pre-amp purposes for music), the "good enough" measurement numbers combined with subjective feedback from others has led me to start from scratch and build a clean pipeline for 2.2, with good numbers, higher dynamic range, etc. I just can't wait to set up a blind test and compare them with my own ears - both with and without DSP/RC.
Btw, for almost the same price, why Motu M4 instead of Topping?

 

[pogo]

Ideally, I would like to use a real 2.2 receiver or integrated amp but there is no such animal that I am aware of.

All current NAD devices have two independent sub outs and will soon get DLBC.
The M66 even is 2.4 able.

 

[peng]

All current NAD devices have two independent sub outs and will soon get DLBC.
The M66 even is 2.4 able.

You missed some of the stuff discussed, I (and @soerenssen too but he wants more channels) am talking about needing a 2.2 with Dirac Live PC standalone version. Some of us like to do it with PC for the flexibility. I only mentioned the AVR option because of their relatively low price for the midrange ones.

The M66 probably can do the job but it would be a huge overkill for what I need. For $7,500, NAD or whatever brand, of course it should be able to do just about anything, including serving dinners and drinks.

So far the best alternative seems to be a 4 channel DAC, the Motu M4. But I wish D+M, Yamaha, or yes NAD would just take one of their AVR, but removing everything except what is needed for two channel use, even better if they remove the video section as well.

 

[soerenssen]

@peng why integrated instead of separates?

 

[soerenssen]

I (and @soerenssen too but he wants more channels) am talking about needing a 2.2 with Dirac Live PC standalone version. The M66 probably can do the job but it would be a huge overkill for what I need. So far the best alternative seems to be a 4 channel DAC, the Motu M4. But I wish D+M, Yamaha, or yes NAD would just take one of their AVR, but removing everything except what is needed for two channel use, even better if they remove the video section as well.

Same 2.2 in my case too (for music).
I would add the ported sub for 5.3 only for HT (if the x4800h supports that configuration), if that's what you meant - so yes, with the external DAC it's sort of redundant, but it'll be an experiment anyway.

 

[peng]

@peng why integrated instead of separates?

Separates are fine too, but again, to do 2.2, we would need basically a 4 channel device, that that's hard to find. Again, currently all those 2.2, except some of those Pogo mentioned, are not really 2.2, not in my book, as those are just internally connected with the main channels so you can really use them to do DLBC, and that's why I mentioned the AVR option, because they in fact can be configure for 2.2 with DL.

I will order the M4 as soon as I got the volume control figured out. @Tafelberg probably is the person to ask for help

Motu M4 Audio Interface Review

This is a review of Motu M4 4x4 audio interface (DAC and ADC). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $220. The enclosure is heavy gauge metal and sturdy: The front inputs are for microphones with higher gain. For my testing I used the Line in (and out) in the back: For testing I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Motu M4 Audio Interface Review

Thanks! The MIDI thing thrown me off, as this is completely unrelated to MIDI… It’s Audio/MIDI. Use the Window menu to open the audio device configuration.

www.audiosciencereview.com