Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[peng]

X4800 got jitter reducing clock circuit. Amir's measurements confirm, that it is working, but as usual, most probably difference can't be heard.

I included that, as part of the audio quality enhancement feature in my list, and that those will unlikely results in audible benefits. Same for the AL32, or Marantz HDAMs.

 

[ban25]

Do you have some evidence to back up that rather serious accusation?

From the review itself:

"Do note the new test protocol: instead of lowering the digital input level, I chose to lower the volume control to get the near 5 watt output. So that is another variable but I think better matches usage of the unit."

He spent a fair amount of time prior to review conferring with Denon -- and note I'm not saying that's a bad thing.

Consider the error bars on the test data: If he measured -1.5 dB low on the 3800 and +1.5 dB high on the 4800. that's a 3 dB difference in SINAD. Both models have the same DAC. Projecting a bit to be fair, I think Amir was disappointed in the 3800's performance regression from the 3700 V1, without realizing (or at least, acknowleding in the text of any review on this site), that the performance regression happened on the 3700 V2 back in 2021.

In short, I would not buy the 4800 for "better performance," but rather for a few specific features that will vary in importance based on use-case.

 

[rocketroberto]

Some days ago I was asking about 4800h zone 2 subwoofer (turns out this is not supported by virtually all AVRs, until you get to the integra 8.4), and In case anybody was curious (probably not), I went with following to create my own zone2 for music listening (this ‘zone’ uses a separate set of KEF R7 speakers in the room, but uses the same sub as what my 5.1 AVR tv/movies setup is using)

- music is played from iTunes lossless on Mac mini (controlled by the ‘remote’ app). Mac runs Dirac

- mac -> topping dm7

- topping into 2 of my external amp’s available channels for stereo channels. topping into y-splitter for subwoofer (So, both my avr and the topping go into the same subwoofer. Nah, I’m not gonna get a switch.)

The topping’s output cable for the subwoofer output is a balanced-> rca and thus loses 6db, but Dirac setup will correct for this.

I was gonna get the Mac mini anyway, so I just had to spend $500 more on the topping. I’ll have a very clean signal all the way to the kefs. “ I spit in the face of all avrs and their paltry zone2. their zone2 manuals will be the tinder on which they burn! “. Hahhh. (Stolen from Ronan the Accuser).

 

[peng]

But what do you consider objective? It has to be how it sounds to humans, right? I believe the equipment may provide a good baseline for what it may sound like but the real test is music and the interpretation of music through people's ears?

If the 4800h sounded amazing musically, it would get my stamp too. Like I said, I'd have ordered another one to replace all my 8002s if it were superior sonically and with HDMI 2.1, Made in Japan, and Dirac Live as a possible upgrade path, what else could I ask for? But it's lacking in the one department, I can never forgive. You can take 6 channels away and I'd forgive that as long as I got great sound quality for music... My LCR suffering is the only thing I will never accept, although to be fair it did improve center channel dialogue.

Yours are subjective, because you rely on your own perception, with your hearing, and that as we know are highly "subject" to bias of different sorts. No one knows what your hearing perceived, such as "musical", boring, or whatever descriptive you may use actually mean, as such narrative are generally hard to quantify by nature. So, if to your hearing, the SR8002 sounds better than the C70 and X4800H, then it is for you, but to others it may or may not mean the same.

With objective measurements, that can include all things that can be measured using highly accurate instruments and mic(s), are repeatable and are not subject to bias.

Keep in mind too, even in your subjective measurements, you did not compare those 3 or more avrs in truly apples to apples ways, that I and others pointed out before (examples: audyssey, direct/pure direct, analog vs digital, two volume control vs one etc.) That's all fine, just that others who read your reviews should read the details you provided in your many posts, before drawing any conclusions for themselves, as to what you actually compared. Also as an example (just one example), if compared level matched in pure direct mode, using analog inputs and the SR8002 and X4800H, or Cinema 70 were all used as is, without mixing and matching then such subjective reviews would have been much easier to understand, though it would still not mean a whole lot if done sighted, as many would argue.

 

[galego100]

Put it this way, in North America, the difference between the two is typically at least US$800, so it seems like for 400€, the AVC-X4800H is much easier to justify.
It boils down to how much value you put on the following:

- Better display and more controls (under the flip down cover)
- 7 HDMI input vs 6
- 3 triggers vs 1
- Component video input
- Composite video input
- Zone 2,3 vs just zone 2

There are also audio/video enhancements tech/features the X4800H offers, though there will not likely result in audible benefits that the marketing material claim, unless you have very good imagination, influence/induced by such marketing talks and internet hearsay.

To me, I would pay the $400 more for the 4800, but it's your money, and your applications.

I also will use purifi as power amplifier on pre-outs of front LR.

 

[peng]

I also will use purifii as power amplifier on pre-outs of front LR.

Sure, makes no difference as I don't consider the 4800's additional power output much of an advantage anyway, 125 W vs 105 W is less than 0.8 dB.

 

[galego100]

Sure, makes no difference as I don't consider the 4800's additional power output much of an advantage anyway, 125 W vs 105 W is less than 0.8 dB.

Honestly , i was to pull the trigger for 4800 , but if i have to be pragmatic, the 3800 have everything i need, but there are somes aspects on 4800 i consider importants, as better building, better internals, i guess the front is aluminium , and 3800 is plastic... So many doubts.

 

[peng]

Honestly , i was to pull the trigger for 4800 , but if i have to be pragmatic, the 3800 have everything i need, but there are somes aspects o 4800 i consider importants, as better building, better internals, i guess the front is aluminium , and 3800 is plastic... So many doubts.

That's half the reason I would go with the 4800, you can see the better build/layout. I believe it will not make it "sound better, or even different, but it is good to look at and feel, knowing that it has a better/cleaning layout, more substantial heatsinks, and a slightly larger power supply.

Just curious, how much more is the Cinema 40 there? In NA, they are typically US$1,000 more, but in Europe I understand it was only 250 to 400 Euro more a few months back but wonder what it would be now. Not that it makes sense to pay more for some gold plated connectors and almost useless HDAMs, again, just my curiosity.

 

[popej]

But what do you consider objective?

In case of audio I would consider measurements, schematics, inside construction details, listening sessions according to ABX protocol or some ITU recommendations, like BS.1116, BS.1534. PEAQ method is interesting too.

 

[techsamurai]

Also as an example (just one example), if compared level matched in pure direct mode, using analog inputs and the SR8002 and X4800H, or Cinema 70 were all used as is, without mixing and matching then such subjective reviews would have been much easier to understand, though it would still not mean a whole lot if done sighted, as many would argue.

That verges on paranoia. I'm hearing what others are hearing so it's not like I'm the only one hearing it. Everyone that hears the 8002 talks about nuances, atmosphere, mids - even if you knew nothing about sound, you'd notice it.

And it will balance out - I might play the 8002 a bit louder but next time I might play the 70 or 4800h louder and if what you're saying is true, then the 70 would sound better but it doesn't. The only time the 70 or 4800h sound good or great is when I hear them without comparison.

Here's another review of music on the 8002:

Needless to say, with rock the SR8002's powerful sound worked well, Amy Winehouse given more strength and body than I have heard to date. This quintessential property of the SR8002 became even more apparent when I span a relatively old recording (1986), Billy Idol's "Sweet Sixteen". Usually sounding a trifle muddled, as you might expect of a CD from this period, through the Marantz Idol sang clearly in an uncluttered but cavernous acoustic; the SR8002 was making far more of the track than I had heard before. I suspect that the BD-P1400's ultra low jitter contributed quite substantially to what I was hearing, possibly due to re-clocking. The Eagles latest album "Long Road out of Eden' displayed very similar qualities, drums sounding deliciously taut and impactful, instruments sharply outlined, against an almost peculiarly deep, silent background. I really couldn't fault this, other than to note that, with what seems like a lot of low level hash removed, the sound does take on a stark quality.



This doesn't apply to the receiver's processing of DSD digital code from SACD however, which sounded almost as fluid as analogue, yet supremely clean and sweet too. I was taken aback by the glorious dynamism of DSD through the Marantz. It was a small but appreciable step up in quality from PCM so if you have an SACD collection and a player like the Oppo DV-980H that outputs DSD code over an HDMI link, the SR8002 is a great choice.

These reviews don't sound like reviews of AVRs where the reviewer says that the music sounds better than anything you've heard before...

Like I said, there's a stereo mode on the 8002 that seems to be different. The 4800h and Cinema 70 have Audyssey Flat/Reference, Direct, and Pure Direct but there's no special stereo mode.

 

[galego100]

W

That's half the reason I would go with the 4800, you can see the better build/layout. I believe it will not make it "sound better, or even different, but it is good to look at and feel, knowing that it has a better/cleaning layout, more substantial heatsinks, and a slightly larger power supply.

Just curious, how much more is the Cinema 40 there? In NA, they are typically US$1,000 more, but in Europe I understand it was only 250 to 400 Euro more a few months back but wonder what it would be now. Not that it makes sense to pay more for some gold plated connectors and almost useless HDAMs, again, just my curiosity.

Well, i choose the 4800 . Bought it right now . Let´s see .Thank you all!

 

[peng]

That verges on paranoia. I'm hearing what others are hearing so it's not like I'm the only one hearing it. Everyone that hears the 8002 talks about nuances, atmosphere, mids - even if you knew nothing about sound, you'd notice it.

Verges on paranoia? May be you are getting a little sensitive on this topic now for some reasons. All I am trying to say so far is that you did not compare SR8012 vs X4800H vs Cinema 70 under the same conditions, based on the way you described how you did it in you posts. For the 8012 and 4800, you involved using the 4800's pre out via the 7.1 analog input to drive the power amps of the 8012, am I wrong? I thought you confirmed that's how you did it. So, in that case you were using the preamp of the 4800+the preamp of the 8012 and the power amp of the 8012 to compare the X4800H AVR. When you add the Cinema 70 in the mix, you even mentioned stereo vs direct and was unclear about whether Audyssey was on or off. That's not really apples to apples is it? If it isn't then why even asked those questions, of course they could sound different to you.

I have never said you did not hear what you did not hear. If I remember right, I thought I have even said I believed you, but the narrative of how you heard one have wide soundstage vs the other one's narrow, and many other differences you described, were heard when the comparisons were not done under the exact same conditions. Lastly, the differences you and yes, others heard are what you and the others heard, but it may or may not be the same that yet many others might hear when compared under the same conditions or different conditions. It should be easy to understand no two AVRs will sound the same if they are compared under different conditions, however small the differences may be. So, that's all I am saying, no denial or challenge of what you heard or not heard, not at all, so what's the paranoia?

As to the often-mentioned sighted vs double blind or single blind test, I am not the expert, but can you at least try to understand why people, even the highly respected Dr. Olive and Dr. Toole advocate the use of such comparison test protocols? Do those PhDs in this field who have conducted lots of research and have many published papers also verge on Paranoia, when they didn't care too much about sighted listening tests? There are multiple threads on ASR and other forums on sighted vs blind, if you are interested to read what others have to say, but I guess you are far more interested in what others subjective measurements are, apparently only to those who's opinions aligned with yours. For example, if someone tells you they have their SR8002 and X4800H side by side and in direct mode, sounded no difference when compared under the same conditions such as in 2 channel music using your favorite pieces, would you then also believe them? I guess not, but then I could be wrong too.

Again, be very clear, I won't (not even try to) debate you on the topic of subjective vs objective tests, but simply highlighting the fact that you did not do your subjective comparison tests under the same conditions. If you had done the test on apples-to-apples basis and still heard the same differences as you described in your multiple posts, then I would just say based on your subjective reviews the duts sounded different in the way you described, no problem, case closed.

Anyway, I tried to be very patient and objective in trying to answer some of your questions (you asked and I tried to answer some of them), but it seems to me you just did not bother reading my posts, and instead, seemed to be getting defensive now. So, I do not think there is any point to continue as I would be repeating things.

And it will balance out - I might play the 8002 a bit louder but next time I might play the 70 or 4800h louder and if what you're saying is true, then the 70 would sound better but it doesn't. The only time the 70 or 4800h sound good or great is when I hear them without comparison.

That has no relevance to things I said in my posts.

 

[peng]

W

Well, i choose the 4800 . Bought it right now . Let´s see .Thank you all!

Congrats, you got a good deal on it, and the 4800 has decent measurements, not sota, but very decent.

 

[antcollinet]

even if you knew nothing about sound, you'd notice it.

Blind? Have you tried?

 

[Jack B]

Blind? Have you tried?

"I hear what I hear and believe what I want to believe, and if you find fault with that, you all have tin ears. Also, you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny"

 

[antcollinet]

"I hear what I hear and believe what I want to believe, and if you find fault with that, you all have tin ears. Also, you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny"

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries.

 

[Jack B]

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries.

Monty Python lives!

 

[phn]

Monty Python lives!

Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!

 

[evert]

I have a slight hum coming from the X4800H whenever it's on. In standby mode it's completely silent. I've tried disconnecting everything except the power chord, but it still hums when powered on. Is this to be expected?

 

[antcollinet]

I have a slight hum coming from the X4800H whenever it's on. In standby mode it's completely silent. I've tried disconnecting everything except the power chord, but it still hums when powered on. Is this to be expected?

I take it that is from the device not from the speakers. If so it will be the transformer, and might be due to a small dc offset on your mains supply. Fairly normal and nothing to worry about if the noise doesn’t bother you while listening.