Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[rocketroberto]

Sounds to me you are fine. Some of the x4300h has the AK4458 dac and that would be bonus.

Ok thx.

 

[rocketroberto]

I expected the same but I'm finding out that these things are as different as Minivans vs SUV vs sports cars. It reminds me of the story of an avid Marantz fan who owned 15 Marantz vintage receivers then heard a Sansui and traded in their top-of-the-line 2275 for a 9090 stating it's clearly better and that's obvious in seconds. And they knew Marantz sound as well as Saul Marantz.

I now own a 4800h so I have a vested interest in it mopping the floor with the 8002 as it's on sale and I can just listen to music directly on the 4800h which would make life a lot easier than switching to the Marantz for music. Not to mention that movies, shows, and games would all sound better on the 4800h. Granted, I can always listen to music on the 8002 while it's working.

Now, for existing 4800h owners, the 4800h sounds great in music. Way better than the RZ50 and enjoyable - it's also perfect for background music while the Marantz was a bit too engaging for that - you had to pick your genre with it. I have been enjoying the 4800h a lot in music but once I hear the 8002 that's when it falls apart. Not in everything, let's be honest... but play Kitaro's Light of the Spirit and Cosmic Love from Live In America and the 8002 - well, it should be illegal or you should need a license to operate it like James Bond - I'll have a Martini, Marantzed, not Denoned.


If I'm using the 4800h and powering it with the 8002, then isn't the 4800h just being used as a preamp/dac? What DAC does the Denon 4800h use? Is the DAC responsible for musical

Putting aside those KITARO tracks not being my cup of tequila, there may be something particular about those sorts of tracks in terms of their very bright/harsh (often ’piercing’ or dare I say tinnitus inducing? Hah) tones, that the denon is falling a bit short on for you vs the 8002. How about checking out more nuanced/balanced tracks that are better mixed with more dynamics….

 

[techsamurai]

Yes, that's why I don"t think the difference could be so dramatic, but again, it's what you heard. Anyway, it looks like you now have a great combination, so just sit back and enjoy.

My own Denons never sounded that different to any of my Marantz, not even when compared to my Marantz stereo seprates, and that's fine for me.

Yeah, let me do another calibration and start using the app. I'm hoping with the Galactic Slumlord's help, I'm going to get there

 

[techsamurai]

Putting aside those KITARO tracks not being my cup of tequila, there may be something particular about those sorts of tracks in terms of their very bright/harsh (often ’piercing’ or dare I say tinnitus inducing? Hah) tones, that the denon is falling a bit short on for you vs the 8002. How about checking out more nuanced/balanced tracks that are better mixed with more dynamics….

What do you use to compare? I love music so if you have great songs then by all means please share them.

 

[peng]

What do you use to compare? I love music so if you have great songs then by all means please share them.

For purity, and to assure minimum bias/personal preferences of the music, I would suggest using strictly orchestral music that uses minimum amplifications, if at all. Classical, Jazz, whatever, but must be excellently recorded/mastered, and again, with no or bare minimum electronics amplification in the signal path.

Before spending too much time on such subjective comparison listening sessions, I would like to remind you of the fact that what you are doing (if I understand correctly how you did it), is not really an apples-to-apples comparison for the Denon and Marantz because:

a) you are still using Denon's preamp (no dac as I understood you are using analog inputs to the Denon and set it to direct or pure direct mode, if not please clarify).
b) because of a), as I pointed out in the beginning, you will have two volume control in series, when using the SR8002's internal amps.

How do you volume match? Did you set the Marantz volume to maximum and only use the Denon to control the volume, or the other way around? In your listening, did you have at any time try varying the volume of either the Denon, or the Marantz, or both to see if you heard anything different? Regardless, the effect will have to be different, if measured properly.

You can understand that when you have such an arrangement for comparison between the two units, the preamp section overall can be complicated, and depending on how you do it, could result in audible differences between each setup. In theory, and objectively speaking, the more neutral/accurate sound would come from using the Denon, when you switched it over the Marantz, for reasons mentioned above, you may, and you obviously did enjoy the "sound" more or much more, but when you added another volume control, and potentially a few other parts such as opamp buffers, electronic switches etc., in the audio signal path, all bets are off, in terms of distortions, frequency response etc..

Please note that I am only commenting on the technical side of things in such a comparison, no comment on what you heard, or not heard at all.

 

[techsamurai]

For purity, and to assure minimum bias/personal preferences of the music, I would suggest using strictly orchestral music that uses minimum amplifications, if at all. Classical, Jazz, whatever, but must be excellently recorded/mastered, and again, with no or bare minimum electronics amplification in the signal path.

Before spending too much time on such subjective comparison listening sessions, I would like to remind you of the fact that what you are doing (if I understand correctly how you did it), is not really an apples-to-apples comparison for the Denon and Marantz because:

a) you are still using Denon's preamp (no dac as I understood you are using analog inputs to the Denon and set it to direct or pure direct mode, if not please clarify).
b) because of a), as I pointed out in the beginning, you will have two volume control in series, when using the SR8002's internal amps.

How do you volume match? Did you set the Marantz volume to maximum and only use the Denon to control the volume, or the other way around? In your listening, did you have at any time try varying the volume of either the Denon, or the Marantz, or both to see if you heard anything different? Regardless, the effect will have to be different, if measured properly.

You can understand that when you have such an arrangement for comparison between the two units, the preamp section overall can be complicated, and depending on how you do it, could result in audible differences between each setup. In theory, and objectively speaking, the more neutral/accurate sound would come from using the Denon, when you switched it over the Marantz, for reasons mentioned above, you may, and you obviously did enjoy the "sound" more or much more, but when you added another volume control, and potentially a few other parts such as opamp buffers, electronic switches etc., in the audio signal path, all bets are off, in terms of distortions, frequency response etc..

Please note that I am only commenting on the technical side of things in such a comparison, no comment on what you heard, or not heard at all.

It's been a while since I listened to classical but I do listen to jazz. Any particular songs? I could play the Amadeus soundtrack as I remember that from the Sansui and can see how they both handle it.

My Marantz is set to 0 and the LR's on the Denon were pushed from 0 to 10db to match the rest of the setup.

I use my phone to level match - the levels sound very close but it's impossible to level match as the Denon literally plays different instruments at times - that's what you call the pre-amp. The Denon always sounds louder even at the same level because of the drums.

 

[EWL5]

I'm partial to David Sanborn's "Time Again" for Jazz and you may have a copy of Vivaldi's "The Four Seasons" for classical (technically Baroque).

 

[Jack B]

For purity, and to assure minimum bias/personal preferences of the music, I would suggest using strictly orchestral music that uses minimum amplifications, if at all. Classical, Jazz, whatever, but must be excellently recorded/mastered, and again, with no or bare minimum electronics amplification in the signal path.

Before spending too much time on such subjective comparison listening sessions, I would like to remind you of the fact that what you are doing (if I understand correctly how you did it), is not really an apples-to-apples comparison for the Denon and Marantz because:

a) you are still using Denon's preamp (no dac as I understood you are using analog inputs to the Denon and set it to direct or pure direct mode, if not please clarify).
b) because of a), as I pointed out in the beginning, you will have two volume control in series, when using the SR8002's internal amps.

How do you volume match? Did you set the Marantz volume to maximum and only use the Denon to control the volume, or the other way around? In your listening, did you have at any time try varying the volume of either the Denon, or the Marantz, or both to see if you heard anything different? Regardless, the effect will have to be different, if measured properly.

You can understand that when you have such an arrangement for comparison between the two units, the preamp section overall can be complicated, and depending on how you do it, could result in audible differences between each setup. In theory, and objectively speaking, the more neutral/accurate sound would come from using the Denon, when you switched it over the Marantz, for reasons mentioned above, you may, and you obviously did enjoy the "sound" more or much more, but when you added another volume control, and potentially a few other parts such as opamp buffers, electronic switches etc., in the audio signal path, all bets are off, in terms of distortions, frequency response etc..

Please note that I am only commenting on the technical side of things in such a comparison, no comment on what you heard, or not heard at all.

Thank you for your logic and kind patience...some topics almost invite snarky replies, and you have consistently avoided taking the bait. Good on you!

 

[techsamurai]

Well, I did use the Audyssey App to do a 8 point calibration with the last 2 very close to the MLP to overload it slightly in the analysis. It came up with the same crossovers but slightly different levels.

Is the app better at plain vanilla calibrations? It looks like the iPad was doing the analysis, not the AVR. I got rid of midrange compensation.

I chose High Frequency Roll Off 1 for now but the room is large so High Frequency Roll Off 2 is probably better.

I'm getting lost now in comparisons I decided to switch to headphones to listen more closely and to eliminate Audyssey, the room, levels, and just try to hear the DAC and pre-amp (although the headphones use different amps). This was prompted by the song Questions by Jack Johnson which is a lullaby but has a lot of nuance with his voice and guitar.

 

[techsamurai]

Thank you for your logic and kind patience...some topics almost invite snarky replies, and you have consistently avoided taking the bait. Good on you!

Peng is amazing! I apologize if you consider my statements as bait. I'm going to have to listen to this for 10-15 years so this is of import to me and until I can get voices and guitars to sound the way I expect them to, I'll keep on trying

Btw, once I fix this and with your help I'm hopeful that I can, everyone is welcome to use my settings and adjust them for your room - you may not like them but at least you'll have a choice which I don't have now.

Imho, the difference in voice inflection and the sound of guitars is more important than Dirac Live or DLBC - it's akin to skin tones on a TV.

 

[techsamurai]

First - if you are using sub(s) I would ignore the Audyssey crossover automatic setting and set all speakers except the sub(s) to 80Hz crossover. Audyssey tells you what the speaker can reproduce. Not changing to 80Hz for non-subs usually causes the sound to be muddy. Some use 60Hz but with a good sub 80Hz does the job well for me.

Second - Turn off "Midrange compensation" in the Audyseey app. If you don't, you will get a BBC type sound which puts a dip in your midrange. Most pay extra for flat speakers and don't need this unneeded transformation.

Third - increasing the Bass volume by 2dB usually offers the extra punch I'm looking for. Don't be afraid to try it.

Fourth - if you are using Audyssey with movies don't be afraid to raise the center speaker by 2dB for clearer movie dialog.

There are many nuances with the Denon Audyssey app. If you leave the setting exactly where the iPad puts them after running Audyssey it won't usually be ideal. Try some of these settings to get a better idea of what I'm suggesting. Have fun!

Thanks for all the suggestions!

 

[Steve Dallas]

Well, I did use the Audyssey App to do a 8 point calibration with the last 2 very close to the MLP to overload it slightly in the analysis. It came up with the same crossovers but slightly different levels.

Is the app better at plain vanilla calibrations? It looks like the iPad was doing the analysis, not the AVR. I got rid of midrange compensation.

I chose High Frequency Roll Off 1 for now but the room is large so High Frequency Roll Off 2 is probably better.

I'm getting lost now in comparisons I decided to switch to headphones to listen more closely and to eliminate Audyssey, the room, levels, and just try to hear the DAC and pre-amp (although the headphones use different amps). This was prompted by the song Questions by Jack Johnson which is a lullaby but has a lot of nuance with his voice and guitar.

Feel free to modify the recommended mic pattern when you run the calibration. For music, I use a pretty tight pattern around the MLP, where every position is within 12", some within 6". The shape is a squished hexagon of sorts, which uses 7 points.

If you have good speakers in a good room, you may want to limit the frequency range to 1000Hz or less, perhaps 500Hz.

I have found through measurement that setting the crossover to 80Hz, leaving the target curve flat, and boosting the sub volume yields the most accurate in-room frequency response. That is what you see in the measurements I posted a few pages back. IIRC, each of my two subs was boosted 1.5dB each.

Start with all the various options turned off. Add them back later one by one to see if you like any of them.

 

[rocketroberto]

My external amp has the following spec: “Input Sensitivity (for rated power; 8 Ohm load): 1.5 V”

Based on the testing of the x4800 pre-outs, is this input sensitivity ok? Anything to be concerned about?

 

[techsamurai]

Okay so how do I match the voice and guitar sounds to the other AVR?

The difference is with male voices, definitely female voices, acoustic guitars, electric guitars, saxophones.

Here's a chart of frequencies. So looking at that chart and the instruments, I'm guessing we're talking about the 200hz-1,000hz range (aka upper bass/low midrange and midrange) although 1,000hz is quite high pitched when listening to tones. I guess whoever said that midrange is everything, they weren't kidding - you almost wonder why they bother with tweeters so much when you see this.

Any recommendations on the curve I can apply? I have Dolby Atmos on my computer and it's quite stunning what EQ can do to the sound so I'm hoping I can at least tonally match them and then we'll know how the DAC and pre-amp affect the sound. I could apply a "hump" where it increases gradually over 200hz and decreases at some point but if anyone knows of another curve then I can try that.

 

[Fofocho]

- If your external dac has better specs, then it is better to use it with the Denon's analog inputs, but only if you use direct or pure direct mode, otherwise the signal will be routed through the AVR's ADC and DAC anyway.

- If you use the analog inputs, in direct or pure direct mode then ys, the Denon will work as a preamp in that case, assuming you are using external power amp obviously.

- No extra conversion as long as you do the above.

- I would recommend using RCA-XLR, but if you try RCA and do not hear hiss and hum, then save your money. RCA-XLR is of course not the same as XLR to XLR but it is supposely still a little better than RCA-RCA, based on Hypex articles on this topic.

You also ask about whether the 4800 can drive the R6 Meta, and I thought that was covered but may be not, so I will say this again, almost any AVRs can drive 4 ohm speakers that often has dips to 3 ohms or even lower. It does depend on your listening habit, speaker sensitivity, and distance.

My suggestion is, use an online calculator to get the answer.

Peak SPL Calculator

This tool calculates the peak sound pressure level (SPL) that your stereo system can deliver to your listening position. For recorded music, you will need to be able to achieve a peak level that is 12 to 18 dB higher than your desired listening level (as measured with an SPL meter).

benchmarkmedia.com

or

Peak SPL Calculator

If you need help on the use of such calculators, just ask the specific questions.

If the calculator tells you 50 W is needed, then the 4800 can do the job, but it would better to use something like the Hypex NCx500, or at least NC502MP. If the calculator says 25 W is enough, then the 4800 should be fine. The numbers I use here are just rough guideline based on my own opinion and experience, not to be taken as exact or in absolute sense at all.

It is a pitty that new Denons and Marantz do not have anymore the "7.1 CH IN" inputs. That was the only way to guarantee 100% analog mode on the receiver. Pure Direct is not 100% analog on normal RCA Inputs (those labelled CD, DVD, etc). The multichannel 7.1 inputs were the only ones running 100% analog. You cannot apply Audyssey, EQ, tone control.... noting to these inputs

 

[peng]

It's been a while since I listened to classical but I do listen to jazz. Any particular songs? I could play the Amadeus soundtrack as I remember that from the Sansui and can see how they both handle it.

Back in 2012 I tried to collect a list of digital music that people considered have good recording/mastering quality:

First list of 38 titles within 10 days:

High quality sound albums

Much of Hoffman's stuff is well regarded, so that likely has as much to do with him as the recording process. I have a CD copy of Jazz at the Pawnshop that was burned from an analog master (don't ask :D ) It is the only CD that I have that really does sound as good as my better SACDs. I do...

forums.audioholics.com

About 128 titles almost 4 years later:

High quality sound albums

I'm pulling down the free super-master-FLAC-things Linn is giving away again for Chrismas... but the dyanmic range (avg to peak) has been 7-11db. Most of the 80s and early 90s CD's are 12-14db, and my good classicals are 14-17db. No point getting all high-format quality if you don't use the range.

forums.audioholics.com

 

[peng]

Okay so how do I match the voice and guitar sounds to the other AVR?

The difference is with male voices, definitely female voices, acoustic guitars, electric guitars, saxophones.

Here's a chart of frequencies. So looking at that chart and the instruments, I'm guessing we're talking about the 200hz-1,000hz range (aka upper bass/low midrange and midrange) although 1,000hz is quite high pitched when listening to tones. I guess whoever said that midrange is everything, they weren't kidding - you almost wonder why they bother with tweeters so much when you see this.

Any recommendations on the curve I can apply? I have Dolby Atmos on my computer and it's quite stunning what EQ can do to the sound so I'm hoping I can at least tonally match them and then we'll know how the DAC and pre-amp affect the sound. I could apply a "hump" where it increases gradually over 200hz and decreases at some point but if anyone knows of another curve then I can try that.

If the difference you heard is mainly due to the frequency response characteristics changed slightly by the two volume control ICs in series, then I think it is nearly impossible to try and match it with EQ, and if you want to try doing it for fun, do it by trial and error.

The best way to start this is to compare the FR of the two combinations for the range say 30 to 20,000 Hz using REW and a mic such as the Umik-1, then you will see how much they differ. The following is an example, when I compared my Denon AVR I had just acquired at the time, with my Cambridge audio preamp and Parasound A21 power amp:

In that comparison, they sounded the same, and the graphs looked almost the same, there was no need to waste time to investigate further. Prior to that, I had done the same to compare my Denon AVR-3805, Marantz AV8801, to my separate preamp and power amps (including my Bryston 4B SST), the results always looked similar to the one below.

 

[EWL5]

Back in 2012 I tried to collect a list of digital music that people considered have good recording/mastering quality:

First list of 38 titles within 10 days:

High quality sound albums

Much of Hoffman's stuff is well regarded, so that likely has as much to do with him as the recording process. I have a CD copy of Jazz at the Pawnshop that was burned from an analog master (don't ask :D ) It is the only CD that I have that really does sound as good as my better SACDs. I do...

forums.audioholics.com

About 128 titles almost 4 years later:

High quality sound albums

I'm pulling down the free super-master-FLAC-things Linn is giving away again for Chrismas... but the dyanmic range (avg to peak) has been 7-11db. Most of the 80s and early 90s CD's are 12-14db, and my good classicals are 14-17db. No point getting all high-format quality if you don't use the range.

forums.audioholics.com

Since you specifically called out Yo-Yo Ma in your list, the Master and Commander soundtrack is every bit as dynamic as the movie itself (as much as a movie with ships shooting cannons at each other could have!). Yo-Yo Ma's "Cello Suite No. 1 in G Major, BWV 1007 - I. Prélude" always takes me back to Captain Aubrey's decision to just spend a few more days on the Galapagos Islands for some additional R&R!

 

[techsamurai]

If the difference you heard is mainly due to the frequency response characteristics changed slightly by the two volume control ICs in series, then I think it is nearly impossible to try and match it with EQ, and if you want to try doing it for fun, do it by trial and error.

I heard the same when the 4800h was used as an amp so I'm not sure the 2 volume ICs are the issue.

The best way to start this is to compare the FR of the two combinations for the range say 30 to 20,000 Hz using REW and a mic such as the Umik-1, then you will see how much they differ. The following is an example, when I compared my Denon AVR I had just acquired at the time, with my Cambridge audio preamp and Parasound A21 power amp:

In that comparison, they sounded the same, and the graphs looked almost the same, there was no need to waste time to investigate further. Prior to that, I had done the same to compare my Denon AVR-3805, Marantz AV8801, to my separate preamp and power amps (including my Bryston 4B SST), the results always looked similar to the one below.



View attachment 319651

Does REW measure live during a song so we can see how they reproduce actual sound?

I had trouble getting REW measurements from my laptop with a UMIK-1 and the REW software. I can try it again. Do I need another piece of equipment?

 

[peng]

I heard the same when the 4800h was used as an amp so I'm not sure the 2 volume ICs are the issue.



Does REW measure live during a song so we can see how they reproduce actual sound?

I had trouble getting REW measurements from my laptop with a UMIK-1 and the REW software. I can try it again. Do I need another piece of equipment?

Please clarify, when you use the 4800's amp you can't be using 2 vol controls, there would have been no need to??

I have not tried to use REW with live music but I believe you can do something with pre recorded music (hopefully someone will chime in on that). There is no need to complicate things, just do the sweep and you have the whole audio bandwidth covered. Are you doubting the merit of such FR plots that all reviewers do, including Amir? What is your concern?

The thing is, doing it this way, you would be able to have some idea as to what to do, regarding the question you asked in your post#1526.