Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[EBrumbaugh]

Thanks Amir, great review as always! I have the 4700H now and was looking to update to the 4800H to take advantage of the 4 independent subwoofer outputs. Have been researching the 4800H and the Cinema 40, so your review was a nice find. Given the $1K price difference between the 4800 / 40, their almost identical internals, identical specs, and both being built at the Japan facility ... I'll be going with the Denon over the Marantz at this point. Both your review and the one posted a AVNirvana confirm that it is a very good AVR, especially at this price point. Thanks again.

 

[soerenssen]

b) don't feel like being limited by the mini's 2 V max output, aside from the expectedly sub 80 dB SINAD (though that's just a on paper only thing).

At least for music/stereo with the NCx500, I'd also prefer having 4V RMS, even for short distance.
The x4800h would be fine with RCA pre-outs for HT, since there is not much emphasis on LR speakers, but for music it might have an impact (right?).

- Speaking of SINAD, as long as I don't have a pre-amp/DAC, can I temporarily use the Wiim Pro with its mediocre DAC with the NCx500?
- If I have the external amp for LR only, would the x4800h have any problem driving a Kef R6 Meta plus Q150/Q350 surrounds later on or at least an NC252 is absolutely necessary for the center?

 

[peng]

At least for music/stereo with the NCx500, I'd also prefer having 4V RMS, even for short distance.
The x4800h would be fine with RCA pre-outs for HT, since there is not much emphasis on LR speakers, but for music it might have an impact (right?).

- Speaking of SINAD, as long as I don't have a pre-amp/DAC, can I temporarily use the Wiim Pro with its mediocre DAC with the NCx500?
- If I have the external amp for LR only, would the x4800h have any problem driving a Kef R6 Meta plus Q150/Q350 surrounds later on or at least an NC252 is absolutely necessary for the center?

The Wiim Pro's dac chip is probably the same TI chip used in the 4800 based on the specs provided. The 4800 can drive the KEF R9 Meta if you don't need more than 100-120 W into 4 ohms, so you need to estimate your actual power need based on you seating distance and listening habit (in terms of max spl you listen to). Pairing it with the NC252 os obviously a good idea regardless.

 

[pogo]

we the end users would have to audition a ton of devices, in order to know which have the "sound" we consider are better, or best.

You can shorten the process a bit and use one of the best amplifier such as a T+A A200 (Purifi). Here you can adjust the output impedance, see also here: Link

 

[geekosa]

I have several misconceptions from the past, this is one of them - "professionals" working in hifi shops giving out advice on what to buy and why definitely added to this issue over time. I'm working actively on fixing these, for example by spending more time on ASR. I'm so happy to have found this place and I just want to thank you guys for all the help and effort!

I cannot directly answer your question because I never listened to the nx500.

But what I can say is the LA90D is a great amplifier. I currently use it to power my two Focal Sopra N2 in a "stereo setup integrated in a HT". I use it instead of an Onkyo PA MC5500 power amplifier, and I can say the difference is astonishing ! I thought I would buy another one for a bridge use, but in fact I never felt I ran out of current for the time being. So I'll stay with one LA90D for the moment ^^

 

[reidcc]

Thank you for this review!

I have to eat some of my words though. In another review I basically said I wouldn't buy another Denon based on the performance of a unit I already purchased.

There was a review for Denon's latest Network Streamer DNP-2000NE, and in the comments I mentioned how poor my DNP-800NE was, having to go back home a couple of times for an attitude adjustment.

My AVR of choice has always been a Yamaha Aventage series. But I've had issues playing 4.0 mixes on my SACD player because the HDMI "bug" on my AVR doesn't playback properly. This has recently come to light with he release of the Rhino Quadio's on BluRay and Billion Dollar Babies not playing back properly.

Fast forward to last week and my searching reviews of current product. On paper I wanted either the Yamaha RX-A6A, or the MArantz Cinema 50, or the Denon X4800. After visiting Safe and Sound HQ to see them in live and living color- I realized I could not live with the porthole display of the Marantz, or the Yamaha A6A, leaving only the Denon on the table. The Denon AVR-X4800 is mine!

 

[siggen]

I cannot directly answer your question because I never listened to the nx500.

But what I can say is the LA90D is a great amplifier. I currently use it to power my two Focal Sopra N2 in a "stereo setup integrated in a HT". I use it instead of an Onkyo PA MC5500 power amplifier, and I can say the difference is astonishing ! I thought I would buy another one for a bridge use, but in fact I never felt I ran out of current for the time being. So I'll stay with one LA90D for the moment ^^

Everything I have been reading here says that the amps should sound the same. What differences are you hearing?

 

[soerenssen]

I cannot directly answer your question because I never listened to the nx500.

But what I can say is the LA90D is a great amplifier. I currently use it to power my two Focal Sopra N2 in a "stereo setup integrated in a HT". I use it instead of an Onkyo PA MC5500 power amplifier, and I can say the difference is astonishing ! I thought I would buy another one for a bridge use, but in fact I never felt I ran out of current for the time being. So I'll stay with one LA90D for the moment ^^

I'm concerned because of the clipping mentioned in this review with weaker amps like the LA90D or AHB2 (even in a dual mono setup). Maybe the LA90D in a mono setup, but the available power is putting me off a bit.

 

[Jack B]

Thank you for this review!

I have to eat some of my words though. In another review I basically said I wouldn't buy another Denon based on the performance of a unit I already purchased.

There was a review for Denon's latest Network Streamer DNP-2000NE, and in the comments I mentioned how poor my DNP-800NE was, having to go back home a couple of times for an attitude adjustment.

My AVR of choice has always been a Yamaha Aventage series. But I've had issues playing 4.0 mixes on my SACD player because the HDMI "bug" on my AVR doesn't playback properly. This has recently come to light with he release of the Rhino Quadio's on BluRay and Billion Dollar Babies not playing back properly.

Fast forward to last week and my searching reviews of current product. On paper I wanted either the Yamaha RX-A6A, or the MArantz Cinema 50, or the Denon X4800. After visiting Safe and Sound HQ to see them in live and living color- I realized I could not live with the porthole display of the Marantz, or the Yamaha A6A, leaving only the Denon on the table. The Denon AVR-X4800 is mine!I

I think you'll be very happy with it...I love mine! Currently using all external power amplifiers, so I can't comment on the 4800's power output. For me, it's the poor man's pre-pro.

 

[PGAMiami]

On one hand, having the possibillity to install a single license on 2 hosts, transfer to another host if required and not being tied to hardware is nice. I'm an IT guy, but messing with laptops and having many small boxes and switches and manual action steps required in a living room is not so convenient. Hence the MiniDSP, especially the SHD (because of the Dirac limitation of the Flex) is much more attractive and it has a good resale value here too. The ideal solution would be a nice receiver that does most of the things right. I don't have the answer to that because the new Pio/Onkyo/Integra receivers were not measured yet. On other forums there are early adopters beta testing it, figuring out bugs, etc. Later this year we will have much more info about them and prices will consolidate too hopefully, but I'll need something until then. They are huge though, I just measure my cabinet and they wouldn't fit in for sure (the Denons would fit).

At least here in Germany:
SHD: 1500
Flex incl. Dirac and Umik-1: 1000
E50 + Dirac Desktop: 200 + 320 + a used Mac Mini M1 (4-500) or cheaper mini PC. Also, it looks like that here in the EU the software license alone can be sold.
Denon x4800h: 1600
Denon x3800h: 900
Pio: 3500 (without DLBC)

The small Denon has only one trigger out, the x4800h has two (I'll have two power amps, one for the LR, another one for the center). But with the MiniDSP or DAC on the other branch, I am not sure how the same stereo power amp could be triggered by two different pre-amps.

For movies and TV my 4800h sounds fantastic with Dirac, even though my system is unusual in that I just have two front speakers (TAD R1s) and two custom surrounds (similar to the Jeff Bagby Continuum II).

My R1s are tucked into the front corners and Dirac does a great job EQing the bass so it sounds right. It also does a great job getting my 4 speakers to sound similarly, and sending the LFE and low bass of the small surrounds to the big TADs. I have Benchmark AHB2s in mono on the TADs and only use the Denon amp for two small surrounds.

All in all I couldn’t be happier with how TV sounds and looks (video processing is also impeccable) with the Denon. That said, for music the Denon with Dirac is no match to my Meitner MA3 DAC with a 66,000 tap Audiolense convolution filter running on a Roon NUC.

The programable triggers on the 4800H manage all this wonderfully. One trigger turns on the AHB2s and another trigger operates a custom XLR AB switch that selects the Meitner to drive the AHB2s whenever the Denon input is set to CD. Otherwise the trigger controlling the AB switch selects the Denon to drive the AHB2s.

One issue I had was that I got hum with the Denon on the XLR input of the AHB2s. I tried many of the usual suspects to get rid of the hum, nothing worked until I used a Furman balanced transformer that allowed to safely float the grounds, resulting in a dead quiet system with the Denon and the Meitner.

 

[soerenssen]

One issue I had was that I got hum with the Denon on the XLR input of the AHB2s.

Is the hum because of you are using an RCA-XLR cable between the Denon and the AHB2? Asking because I'm planning to do the same, but I probably won't be able to deal with such problems like you.

another trigger operates a custom XLR AB switch that selects the Meitner to drive the AHB2s whenever the Denon input is set to CD

Since the Meitner has no 12V trigger out, the Denon must be turned on all the time while you're listening to music?

for music the Denon with Dirac is no match to my Meitner MA3 DAC with a 66,000 tap Audiolense convolution filter running on a Roon NUC.

I'm also hesitating to use an AVR (especially the ones not measured yet, like the new Pio/Integra) for music. Even if the measurements on paper are good enough, I just find too many reviews and information on how much different a DAC can make. Now I am literally chasing rainbows, how to make these Kefs sound at least close to how they sounded in the shop, so for stereo I'm now looking for a DAC/pre-amp combo to pair with the NCx500. But frankly, the more I read and research the harder it becomes to make the right decision.

(The following is a bit ooc.)

I just copy/paste a piece from a review of the previous generation of the Kef Reference 3 that I found, about DAC pairing:

"It was natural trying a bunch of D/A converters and Reference 3 actually helped me a lot when I was evaluating such devices.
What struck me first is that these highly detailed and transparent sounding loudspeakers were sounding less impressive, bi-dimensional and almost flat, carrying little to no emotions with entry to mid-level converters. Digital creatures that had dedicated line-amplifier circuits sounded considerably better to those that used over-simplified digital attenuation techniques. For example…I wasn’t very impressed by entry level Topping, SMSL and Gustard DACs that were almost clinical sounding when I was pairing them with power amplifiers. After adding a preamplifier in the chain like Musician Monoceros or Benchmark HPA4, I felt their presence immediately, improving the pace, rhythm and timing and boosting dynamics to higher levels. When I’ve used several D/A converters that had proper line-amplifier circuits, things improved drastically. No wonder Gold Note DS-10 Plus powered by its complimentary PSU-10 EVO power supply, together with the Matrix Audio Element X sounded the best to me, completely bypassing the need of a dedicated preamplifier."

If this is true, I'd have to spend the same money as my speakers cost to get a decent enough DAC for these speakers to sound as intended.
For example, I have no clue which DACs use dedicated line-amplifier circuits instead of "over-simplified digital attenuation techniques" and why would it make an audible difference but I definitely don't want "less impressive, bi-dimensional and almost flat, carrying little to no emotions" - whatever that means. Also, why is "clinical sounding" a problem? I prefer measurements and rather trust the experts on this forum, but there is a strong overlap with personal impressions too and it's hard to separate the two.
Why would a 200 Euro Topping E50 sound any different than a Mola Mola?

 

[PGAMiami]

Is the hum because of you are using an RCA-XLR cable between the Denon and the AHB2? Asking because I'm planning to do the same, but I probably won't be able to deal with such problems like you.


Since the Meitner has no 12V trigger out, the Denon must be turned on all the time while you're listening to music?


I'm also hesitating to use an AVR (especially the ones not measured yet, like the new Pio/Integra) for music. Even if the measurements on paper are good enough, I just find too many reviews and information on how much different a DAC can make. Now I am literally chasing rainbows, how to make these Kefs sound at least close to how they sounded in the shop, so for stereo I'm now looking for a DAC/pre-amp combo to pair with the NCx500. But frankly, the more I read and research the harder it becomes to make the right decision.

(The following is a bit ooc.)

I just copy/paste a piece from a review of the previous generation of the Kef Reference 3 that I found, about DAC pairing:

"It was natural trying a bunch of D/A converters and Reference 3 actually helped me a lot when I was evaluating such devices.
What struck me first is that these highly detailed and transparent sounding loudspeakers were sounding less impressive, bi-dimensional and almost flat, carrying little to no emotions with entry to mid-level converters. Digital creatures that had dedicated line-amplifier circuits sounded considerably better to those that used over-simplified digital attenuation techniques. For example…I wasn’t very impressed by entry level Topping, SMSL and Gustard DACs that were almost clinical sounding when I was pairing them with power amplifiers. After adding a preamplifier in the chain like Musician Monoceros or Benchmark HPA4, I felt their presence immediately, improving the pace, rhythm and timing and boosting dynamics to higher levels. When I’ve used several D/A converters that had proper line-amplifier circuits, things improved drastically. No wonder Gold Note DS-10 Plus powered by its complimentary PSU-10 EVO power supply, together with the Matrix Audio Element X sounded the best to me, completely bypassing the need of a dedicated preamplifier."

If this is true, I'd have to spend the same money as my speakers cost to get a decent enough DAC for these speakers to sound as intended.
For example, I have no clue which DACs use dedicated line-amplifier circuits instead of "over-simplified digital attenuation techniques" and why would it make an audible difference but I definitely don't want "less impressive, bi-dimensional and almost flat, carrying little to no emotions" - whatever that means. Also, why is "clinical sounding" a problem? I prefer measurements and rather trust the experts on this forum, but there is a strong overlap with personal impressions too and it's hard to separate the two.
Why would a 200 Euro Topping E50 sound any different than a Mola Mola?

First I would avoid getting overly concerned with the audiophile hype. The Denon is never really off, it can’t be because it’s always looking out for your remote to turn it on. Also even when it’s off, it still passes through hdmi video. Hum is a tricky thing. I dont know why I had a problem and it took a while to find a solution. I was using the recommended Benchmark RCA to XLR cable but even with that I had hum. I route all AC. through a Furman balanced power transforme. Maybe that caused a proble. Who knows but flipping the ground lift switch on the Furman made everything super quiet.

The one thing missing on the 4800 is XLR connections. RCA to XLR is always a bit of a roulette game, sometimes it’s fine, sometimes not. But regardless the 4800 is a relative bargain as a processor for home theater. Dirac is a game changer. But all said, there are many DACs that Will outperform the 4800 for stereo. And Audiolense convolution will also outperform Dirac. So if you want the best of both world, stereo and HT, you may want two rigs, and you need some sort of AB switch to make it all practical. The Benchmark preamp does a fabulous job and it has a HT bypass input. A friend of mine is using a Benchmark stack in conjunction with a Marantz receiver for home theate. It works flawlessly. A more economical solution may be with the Topping A90 D. It has RCA and XLR inputs, trigger and a ground lift switch. Don’t know if it has HT bypass. But you can get a great Topping DAC and the 4800, plug both into the A90. This will sound great I’m sure. Btw, for the center channel, I expect the 4800 will be just fine, especially if it’s not powering the other front channels or deep bass.

 

[soerenssen]

First I would avoid getting overly concerned with the audiophile hype. The Denon is never really off, it can’t be because it’s always looking out for your remote to turn it on. Also even when it’s off, it still passes through hdmi video. Hum is a tricky thing. I dont know why I had a problem and it took a while to find a solution. I was using the recommended Benchmark RCA to XLR cable but even with that I had hum. I route all AC. through a Furman balanced power transforme. Maybe that caused a proble. Who knows but flipping the ground lift switch on the Furman made everything super quiet.

The one thing missing on the 4800 is XLR connections. RCA to XLR is always a bit of a roulette game, sometimes it’s fine, sometimes not. But regardless the 4800 is a relative bargain as a processor for home theater. Dirac is a game changer. But all said, there are many DACs that Will outperform the 4800 for stereo. And Audiolense convolution will also outperform Dirac. So if you want the best of both world, stereo and HT, you may want two rigs, and you need some sort of AB switch to make it all practical. The Benchmark preamp does a fabulous job and it has a HT bypass input. A friend of mine is using a Benchmark stack in conjunction with a Marantz receiver for home theate. It works flawlessly. A more economical solution may be with the Topping A90 D. It has RCA and XLR inputs, trigger and a ground lift switch. Don’t know if it has HT bypass. But you can get a great Topping DAC and the 4800, plug both into the A90. This will sound great I’m sure. Btw, for the center channel, I expect the 4800 will be just fine, especially if it’s not powering the other front channels or deep bass.

The x4800h will power the surrounds later on, eventually atmos speakers too. Plus 1-2 active subs.
I'm looking at pre-amps now, I like the new A70Pro + D70Pro combo. I don't know if it has HT bypass though, that's a big question mark. The A70 Pro has only 8V out compared to Pre90 (10V) and gets quite hot. Currently I have a stereo amp for LR, with variable gain settings and with a pre-amp I can have a lower gain setting for stereo. If I get a mono amp for the center later on (in case the x4800h is not sufficient to power the center and the surrounds too) with 27dB fixed gain (older NC500 or NC250), can I match it with the pre-amp somehow? And if yes, can these settings be saved so once I match the LR amp with the center amp, it's a matter of switching back and forth between XLR and RCA inputs on the pre-amp? Would be nice, because I wouldn't need a manual XLR switcher.

 

[PGAMiami]

The x4800h will power the surrounds later on, eventually atmos speakers too. Plus 1-2 active subs.
I'm looking at pre-amps now, I like the new A70Pro + D70Pro combo. I don't know if it has HT bypass though, that's a big question mark. The A70 Pro has only 8V out compared to Pre90 (10V) and gets quite hot. Currently I have a stereo amp for LR, with variable gain settings and with a pre-amp I can have a lower gain setting for stereo. If I get a mono amp for the center later on (in case the x4800h is not sufficient to power the center and the surrounds too) with 27dB fixed gain (older NC500 or NC250), can I match it with the pre-amp somehow? And if yes, can these settings be saved so once I match the LR amp with the center amp, it's a matter of switching back and forth between XLR and RCA inputs on the pre-amp? Would be nice, because I wouldn't need a manual XLR switcher.

ARX RS-1 XLR AB Switcher Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the ARX RS-1 Remote Switcher. Strangely the back says "Remote SwitcherAB-19" so not sure what is the right model number. It was kindly purchased and drop shipped to me by a member. The RS-1 costs US $273. The website says "HANDMADE IN MELBOURNE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This XLR switch should work fine triggered by the Denon. But there are other options. The main point I would make is the 4800 is great for TV, tremendous value, but for stereo, you can surely do better, and you need some method for getting the 4800 out of the signal path.

 

[soerenssen]

ARX RS-1 XLR AB Switcher Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the ARX RS-1 Remote Switcher. Strangely the back says "Remote SwitcherAB-19" so not sure what is the right model number. It was kindly purchased and drop shipped to me by a member. The RS-1 costs US $273. The website says "HANDMADE IN MELBOURNE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This XLR switch should work fine triggered by the Denon. But there are other options. The main point I would make is the 4800 is great for TV, tremendous value, but for stereo, you can surely do better, and you need some method for getting the 4800 out of the signal path.

Because of that potential hum issue I would like to avoid RCA to XLR cables. RCA-to-RCA could go from the AVR to the pre-amp. I like the A70 Pro and the Pre90 because of their Safe Volume feature, also they would be able to provide more output voltage for the NCx500 (for a potentially lower gain setting). I'm a bit worried about turning the DAC's digital volume knob all the way to 0dB. If I understood correctly, having a separate pre-amp in place I could have some protection.

 

[PGAMiami]

Because of that potential hum issue I would like to avoid RCA to XLR cables. RCA-to-RCA could go from the AVR to the pre-amp. I like the A70 Pro and the Pre90 because of their Safe Volume feature, also they would be able to provide more output voltage for the NCx500 (for a potentially lower gain setting). I'm a bit worried about turning the DAC's digital volume knob all the way to 0dB. If I understood correctly, having a separate pre-amp in place I could have some protection.

Almost all DACs perform best at full gain, zero digital attenuation. I would suggest you look for a preamp that has RCA and XLR inputs, XLR outputs and a HT bypass. The Benchmark pre amp is great, but it’s not cheap.

 

[PGAMiami]

Because of that potential hum issue I would like to avoid RCA to XLR cables. RCA-to-RCA could go from the AVR to the pre-amp. I like the A70 Pro and the Pre90 because of their Safe Volume feature, also they would be able to provide more output voltage for the NCx500 (for a potentially lower gain setting). I'm a bit worried about turning the DAC's digital volume knob all the way to 0dB. If I understood correctly, having a separate pre-amp in place I could have some protection.

Benchmark DAC3 L - Digital to Analog Audio Converter

The DAC3 L is currently shipping from stock. The DAC3 L is the ideal for customers who do not need an internal headphone amplifier. It delivers the full performance of the flagship DAC3 HGC, but eliminates the internal HPA2 headphone amplifier. Overview A New Reference - Going Beyond the...

benchmarkmedia.com

This should be very close to the performance of the Benchmark pre amp and DAC, at a lower cost. It has RCA inputs and HT bypass.

 

[soerenssen]

I'll have a look around, thanks!

I would like to use the two 12V triggers of the x4800h to power 3 mono blocks (5-12V, so should be fine).
At the same time, I would like to have the streamer-DAC-preamp chain to be able to trigger 2 of the 3 monoblocks (for stereo) via the preamp.
Ideally both the DAC and the AVR will be connected to the same pre-amp as mentioned above. I've read that having an Y trigger cable (2 in 1 out) is not recommended.
Is there a solution for this?

 

[PGAMiami]

I'll have a look around, thanks!

I would like to use the two 12V triggers of the x4800h to power 3 mono blocks (5-12V, so should be fine).
At the same time, I would like to have the streamer-DAC-preamp chain to be able to trigger 2 of the 3 monoblocks (for stereo) via the preamp.
Ideally both the DAC and the AVR will be connected to the same pre-amp as mentioned above. I've read that having an Y trigger cable (2 in 1 out) is not recommended.
Is there a solution for this?

You can split the trigger with a y adapter no problem. Should have more than enough current to turn on multiple amps without any meaningful drop in voltage. And AHB2 can be daisy chained. My Denon turns on 4 AHB 2s

 

[soerenssen]

I meant the other way around: 2 mono blocks, both can be triggered by either the x4800h or a pre-amp. I've read that a single 12V input should not have more than one triggering device upstream. Same problem if I connect the both the x4800h and a Topping DAC to the same pre-amp (if it has HT bypass feature). Preferably any of these DACs should be able to trigger the chain all the way down to the power amps. But what happens if I turn on both the Topping and the AVR?