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Nah. Some 8 dB is too much for that. Plus Denon would have probably commented if Amir had an outlier. My money is on PCB or some other optimization for the X4800.
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Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review
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ivo.f.doma
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Yes. SINAD measurement at 5W. Regulation not in the digital domain. Which I think reduces the noise…
Amir has been measuring it at 5 W on AVRs, not just the 4800, same for the 3800, 3700, 6700, Marantz SR6014, 7015 and others, so what is your point on this? What regulation?
I am not trying to argue with you, just want to understand the point you are trying to make.
ivo.f.doma
Active Member
I'm not talking about any regulation! Only change in measurement at 4800.
This was written by Amir himself: Do note the new test protocol: instead of lowering the digital input level, I chose to lower the volume control to get the near 5 watt output. So that is another variable, but I think better matches usage of the unit.
Great discussion here. I would point out that in all of the testing and the results that Amir published, much of the delay in publishing the reviews is due to confirmation of results with Denon. Amir does not publicly post Denon test result specs, but he corresponds with the Engineering team to confirm testing. Denon's willingness to work with Amir and their demonstrated interest to participate and provide professional courtesy and support is an impressive work ethic that speaks greatly of the work culture of Denon.
So when the 3800 SINAD came in at 87, Denon confirmed the results which was not a random experience of one unit testing poorly. And when the HDMI on the 4800 tested lower with Amir than Toslink 95 SINAD, Denon disputed the lower number and Amir retested with their guidance for some adjustment to correcting a grounding issue with his test set-up and achieved the on-par values that Denon confirmed with their Spec targets for the 4800.
It's an important relationship to have a manufacturer confirm the parameters of testing results and more importantly, to take a participative interest with ASR to assure the quality and performance of their product. With the 4800, my takeaway is that Denon worked to build a better product than the 3800 as a value added performer which was redesigned and constructed in the Japan facility that has been admitted to be a better facility for build quality and production enhancements with upgrades or changes.
There is an old adage of assembly line performance of products, "don't buy a product that is manufactured on a Friday or a Monday, Friday no one wants to work because they're focused on the weekend, and Monday, no one is sober enough to care about work after the weekend." Will there be variance in production quality? Yes, of course, but the process control for manufacturing is designed with repeatability standards that prevent many variances in production.
Manufacturer goals are driven by these standards which is sustainable with manufacturing experiences and specific process controls. Denon is proud to share they have experience of more than 110 years. (Sounding like a "Fanboy" again).
The tolerances for quality output fall within a repeatable outcome based on the reliability of the production, product/component sources, manufacturer process and the sustainability of goals that are built into process control to manage quality of output. Most importantly, offering a 3 year Warranty, 60 Days return window, and responsive customer support; the reputation of a product is nurtured by the results of the Company that responds and stands behind what they sell.
In the end, I am pleased with the performance of the 4800. There is no discernible issues, and I have been going through the paces of performance testing and trying to find the subtle flaw or issue that would be a weakness to the product. I have not found anything at all, in fact, it has performed better than I have expected.
The question at the end of the discussion is "are you pleased with your purchase and does the performance meet or exceed your expectations? So far, I have not found anything negative and highly recommend the Denon as a solid performer. I am very pleased with my purchase.
So when the 3800 SINAD came in at 87, Denon confirmed the results which was not a random experience of one unit testing poorly. And when the HDMI on the 4800 tested lower with Amir than Toslink 95 SINAD, Denon disputed the lower number and Amir retested with their guidance for some adjustment to correcting a grounding issue with his test set-up and achieved the on-par values that Denon confirmed with their Spec targets for the 4800.
It's an important relationship to have a manufacturer confirm the parameters of testing results and more importantly, to take a participative interest with ASR to assure the quality and performance of their product. With the 4800, my takeaway is that Denon worked to build a better product than the 3800 as a value added performer which was redesigned and constructed in the Japan facility that has been admitted to be a better facility for build quality and production enhancements with upgrades or changes.
There is an old adage of assembly line performance of products, "don't buy a product that is manufactured on a Friday or a Monday, Friday no one wants to work because they're focused on the weekend, and Monday, no one is sober enough to care about work after the weekend." Will there be variance in production quality? Yes, of course, but the process control for manufacturing is designed with repeatability standards that prevent many variances in production.
Manufacturer goals are driven by these standards which is sustainable with manufacturing experiences and specific process controls. Denon is proud to share they have experience of more than 110 years. (Sounding like a "Fanboy" again).
The tolerances for quality output fall within a repeatable outcome based on the reliability of the production, product/component sources, manufacturer process and the sustainability of goals that are built into process control to manage quality of output. Most importantly, offering a 3 year Warranty, 60 Days return window, and responsive customer support; the reputation of a product is nurtured by the results of the Company that responds and stands behind what they sell.
In the end, I am pleased with the performance of the 4800. There is no discernible issues, and I have been going through the paces of performance testing and trying to find the subtle flaw or issue that would be a weakness to the product. I have not found anything at all, in fact, it has performed better than I have expected.
The question at the end of the discussion is "are you pleased with your purchase and does the performance meet or exceed your expectations? So far, I have not found anything negative and highly recommend the Denon as a solid performer. I am very pleased with my purchase.
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Not the dashboard that shows SINAD as the first measured number for the pre outs, same methods. Take a look below:
AVR-X4800H and AVR-X3800H:
The results show the AVR-X4800H measured 8 dB better in SINAD, again, that has nothing to do with Amir's changed method.
For the 5 W AVR output test, yes he said he changed the method but the results look about the same as the AVR-X3800H anyway. So, if you think the changed method is the reason why the 4800 has better result when you said "it seems to me tit seems to me that the hat the measurement system was changed just to make the 4800 measure better. "
I just don't see it from the results, unless there is something you noticed and I didn't. It is clear, from the tests, the 4800 measured better on the pre outs for whatever reasons that we can all speculate, and the power amps 5 W output SINAD shows practically no difference between the two, changed method or not. Though you are right, that one is not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison, but the one for the pre outs are.
Pre out SINAD:
Power amp output at 5 W SINAD:
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On the issue of "Chip Binning" for performant DAC's and their use to enhance a product line over another, I just do not see this as a practical or reasonable assumption for production on the scale that Denon operates. Assuming they are purchasing the 2000 piece Quantity dispenser for production assembly, it would be merely impractical to sort a product with the time and handling involved between 2 different manufacturing facilities.
Build design is mostly responsible for the differences in performances with the 3800 and 4800 products, as evidenced by the Denon response to Amir's Spec verification, IMO.
Build design is mostly responsible for the differences in performances with the 3800 and 4800 products, as evidenced by the Denon response to Amir's Spec verification, IMO.
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I don’t believe it matters whether the box is built in Japan or Vietnam. The 6700 also is built in Japan, has the monolithic amp construction and still is outperformed by the 3600 from Viernam with ‘simple’ amp construction. Of course I don’t challenge the 4800’s better SINAD performance as it is tested. It seems the digital board that you look upon is different in the 4800, sort of ‘cleaner’… The 3800 resembles the older boxes… Anyway, being satisfied with your purchase is important and I also belief the 4800 is a really nice AVR.
Not by them, I think such practice, or option may be offered/available from some manufacturers. We need someone with insider (in the IC business) information to educate us on this.
Yea TI can easily bin them
Something we know:
- Volume IC, same
- DAC IC, same
- DSP chip, same
Something we don't know:
- Whether the "binned" chips are involved
- Circuitry, something might have changed for the 2022-23 models resulting in some differences between the 4800 and 3800
- Parts tolerances, we don't know if parts such as resistors and caps used in the 4800 have tighter tolerances, I won't bet on that, but it is possible.
- OPA, same in the previous year models (year 2016 through 2018 may be 19) but no idea about the 2020 through 2022 models
- Buffers, same as OPA, in the 2020 through 2022 models, I don't know if the upper models are different, though based on the 3700 vs 4700, likely the same across the line
- Power supplies, the 4800 may have better ones, like stronger, better shielding etc.
As I said before, we can only guess and speculate, or we can just trust what that Masimo video say, that all the differences he mentioned, may be the reasons. I don't trust those marketing material too much but I think there are some truth in them in some cases.
Thank you, I assume you are one of those insiders.
Agreed, and since the few of us obviously are open to speculation so I am going to join in by saying the following:
- Yes I like better build, cleaner layouts too,C but based on many bench test result, not only Denon's, those things don't seem to matter as much as the better spec'ed parts and components, circuit designs and best possible grounding practice, that's assuming the basic principles in shielding and general good practices are followed.
- As an example, it is difficult to overcome the superiority of the A1H, AV10's ES9018K2M's 120 dB SINAD vs the PCM5102A's 93 dB, you can put the best lipsticks on the 5102A, you can't make up for the hugh gap in the specs.
Just think about all those copper plates, and seemingly meticulous shielding on various parts and cabling, including encasing the toroidal power supply transformer in the AV8805A, gold plated connectors and other niceties, it only managed 92 dB SINAD vs the X3600/3700H's >96 dB. The AV10 uses more layers of boards, thicker copper plates etc., and even better shielding scheme overall, but the much higher measured SINAD are likely contributed by using the improved HDAMs and much better spec's DAC chip.
So I think the 8 dB better pre out SINAD the 4800 achieved are only partially explainable by the better build quality, but mostly by something more hardwire and circuitry related, that we are not aware of. Since the leak (not sure if it is because of that) of the AV8805's service manual, D+M seems to have follow the lead of their competitors practice of not publishing service manuals.
The 3600 and 1st 3700 didn’t get maximum from the AKM DAC’s. so clearly the construction and/or other components were the limiting factor. If you look closely at the 4800 the power unit really is physically shielded as opposed to the older and lower boxes. Really we only need 90+ @2V and preferably starting around 1V with this score. Focus on amps and boord processing is more important. Of course any supplier throwing (much) better DAC’s is welcome. An AVR only needs to cost a couple of bucks more as differences in price are limited.
Still, I really don’t belief a top DAC will be notice when you play 11 channels reflecting the sound of bullets, race cars, shouting people etc. In stereo when I listen to music it makes sense but then I have my €50 Topping E30 and/or €160 Argon Solo when I stream. Waaayyy cheaper than aan 8500 for example. Like with everything in live it is also about being pragmatic.
susanstone
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I think he is talking about "SINAD vs measurement level". 2Vrms is only one data point, and yes, X4800H is much better than X3800H at this point. However, the SINAD measurements and method change also puzzle me.Not the dashboard that shows SINAD as the first measured number for the pre outs, same methods. Take a look below:
AVR-X4800H and AVR-X3800H:
The results show the AVR-X4800H measured 8 dB better in SINAD, again, that has nothing to do with Amir's changed method.
For the 5 W AVR output test, yes he said he changed the method but the results look about the same as the AVR-X3800H anyway. So, if you think the changed method is the reason why the 4800 has better result when you said "it seems to me tit seems to me that the hat the measurement system was changed just to make the 4800 measure better. "
I just don't see it from the results, unless there is something you noticed and I didn't. It is clear, from the tests, the 4800 measured better on the pre outs for whatever reasons that we can all speculate, and the power amps 5 W output SINAD shows practically no difference between the two, changed method or not. Though you are right, that one is not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison, but the one for the pre outs are.
Pre out SINAD:
Power amp output at 5 W SINAD:
To my understanding:
For X3800H measurement, "SINAD vs measurement level" shows 300m to 1.4Vrms. SINAD are all above 90 with optimal at 760m/95. The method is by adjusting input level (while keeping volume the same).
For X4800H measurement, "SINAD vs Volume level" shows 300m to 2Vrms. SINAD is increased from around 87 to 94, the higher the better. The method is by adjusting volume (while keeping input level the same.)
The question is: are measurement level and volume level comparable?
Based on above measurements, X3800H looks better with lower measurement level. X4800H looks better with higher volume level. Considering external power amp's input sensitivity, how many of them need 2Vrms to reach full power? for example, 200W may need 1.6V with 8ohm, 1.4V with 4ohm. So for moderate volume level (which is at the lower end), X3800H looks be better than X4800H.
I believe one of the previous posts has the same doubt.
If you read my post again, I think I covered all 3 measurements, the single point, that is SINAD at 2 V, SINAD versus pre out voltage, and SINAD at 5 W output from the speaker binding points.
The method used for the first measurement has not changed, for the other two, yes it was changed, according to Amir, and he stated exactly how it was changed.
sask15
Member
Susanstone, that’s what I was thinking, I bought an Anthem PVA5 thinking it has a nice low voltage requirement 1.12 VRMS for 125 W into 8 Ω as the 3800 showed I would benefit with it being lower. Now with the 4800 it would best to find an external amplifier that needs higher voltage closer to 2v for ideal. Although using RandomEar’s graph it looks like the difference wouldn’t be very significant anyway In the end.
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That is basically what Amir said, your "measurement level" is confusing, so let's just quote him directly instead of using our own words:
About the SINAD vs pre out voltage:
"Above is at volume level which generates the nominal 2 volt output which required a volume level of 82.5. Many of you may run the unit at lower volume levels so here is how SINAD varies based on volume control:"
and the SINAD at 5 W power amp output voltage:
" Do note the new test protocol: instead of lowering the digital input level, I chose to lower the volume control to get the near 5 watt output. So that is another variable but I think better matches usage of the unit."
Obviously in both cases, he measured SINAD
Again, your "measurement level" and "volume level" is not clear, I have to guess "measurement level" means the input signal level to the AVR?, and volume level means the volume setting?
Assuming, by "measurement level, you mean the input signal level to the AVR, the "volume level" means the volume setting, such as -3, -20, 0....
Then while they can be compared, the way Amir present the curves it is hard to compare the two directly, as the method used are different.
They are easier to compare if you convert the Amir's curve as RandomEar has done in post#210 and #212:
Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review
I'm surprised there's no further comments on the ground issue? Amir knows what he is doing, and with his test rig/methodology I don't recall this happening before. So I am worried this is something induced by the Denon?
www.audiosciencereview.com
Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review
The SHARC ADSP-21593 in the X3800H/X4800H/AH1 should be more than enough to handle Dirac ART. https://www.analog.com/en/products/adsp-21593.html
www.audiosciencereview.com
Thanks to RandomEar, the first graph now looks more like the one for the X3800H, that is, you can see SINAD (dB) vs pre out Voltage (V) easily.
As you observed, at lower output voltage, SINAD for the 4800 looks slightly lower than the 3800's, but the measurement methods are different and that could easily explain the slight difference in SINAD at lower output level (V).
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susanstone
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This is my point. If 'SINAD versus pre out voltage' are comparable regardless of method change, X4800H is worse than X3800H below 1.3-1.4.As you observed, at lower output voltage, SINAD for the 4800 looks slightly lower than the 3800's, but the measurement methods are different and that could easily explain the slight difference in SINAD at lower output level (V).
You mentioned 3 things to consider: SINAD at 2 V, SINAD versus pre out voltage, and SINAD at 5 W output
SINAD at 2 V: X4800H clear wins. It may be industry standard to measure at 2V. However, how many external amps need 2V?
SINAD versus pre out voltage: X3800H wins on lower end. This range is possibly in majority cases of normal listening. This is make me wondering how much is due to method change? Nobody knows unless you measure them using the same method. Further, if you don't convert the chart, you may not notice or think that this lower end performance is more or less important for your use case.
SINAD at 5 W output: X4800H and X3800H are comparable - 85~86.
sask15
Member
In the 1v to 1.5v range which may be fairly typical for external amplifiers the 3800 and 4800 are pretty similar. Using the same Dacs how is the curve so different between the two? The 3800 is going down after .8v and higher voltage , and the 4800 is climbing the whole way to at least 2v. I know nothing of this technical stuff I am just curious. Thanks
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