Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[Sal1950]

By the way, I used to feel Audyssey over boosted the surround channels when deq is on, now that I have the AVM70 for 3 months I know that isn't the case. The Anthem boost the surround channels just the same without deq, obviously. So, I think, logically, that the perceived Audyssey boost on surr channels might have been just reflecting what the movie mix practice change in recent years.

The boost in the surround channels is real and aggravates the hell out off me.
I've read their reasoning somewhere but still don't agree with it.
Since I leave DEQ on all the time, I went in and tamed the surrounds by -3 db and I often think
it could use a bit more. This is using music as a reference, I do watch the occasional movie but
my rig is playing music 90+% of the time.

BTW, I watched Jamie Lee Curtis's Halloween Ends for the second of third time last night.
What an excellent job she's done on that horror classic.
You go girl!

 

[peng]

The boost in the surround channels is real and aggravates the hell out off me.
I've read their reasoning somewhere but still don't agree with it.
Since I leave DEQ on all the time, I went in and tamed the surrounds by -3 db and I often think
it could use a bit more. This is using music as a reference, I do watch the occasional movie but
my rig is playing music 90+% of the time.

BTW, I watched Jamie Lee Curtis's Halloween Ends for the second of third time last night.
What an excellent job she's done on that horror classic.
You go girl!

I know it us real, but I am not sure it is an Audyssey DEQ thing, because my AVM70 seems to do that too. I don't really know, has anyone asked Audyssey, Denon, or Marantz about why the over boost?

 

[dlaloum]

Thanks for this!

A $50 savings for the All-in-one packages?!!! Any idea if Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer plan to have their own version of this? If they did, I would imagine the pricing plans would come down to some equilibrium value rather than the monopoly pricing we see here.

Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer include Dirac Live as part of their offering... the price to upgrade is set by Dirac, and is the same as the upgrade price on D&M (and other brands eg: Arcam) - I doubt D&M set that price!

 

[RF Air]

My understanding is Dirac has User License Fee paid directly to Dirac for consumers, by consumers. Manufacturers have a Product License Fee to offer Dirac product capability and have paid for their technology and use of their Dirac ready Products.

 

[Joost80]

The boost in the surround channels is real and aggravates the hell out off me.
I've read their reasoning somewhere but still don't agree with it.
Since I leave DEQ on all the time, I went in and tamed the surrounds by -3 db and I often think
it could use a bit more. This is using music as a reference, I do watch the occasional movie but
my rig is playing music 90+% of the time.

BTW, I watched Jamie Lee Curtis's Halloween Ends for the second of third time last night.
What an excellent job she's done on that horror classic.
You go girl!

I went with 3,5 db. Really annoying. The rear heights also. I haven't noticed the front heights got boosted. Maybe need to check.

 

[enricoclaudio]

My understanding is Dirac has User License Fee paid directly to Dirac for consumers, by consumers. Manufacturers have a Product License Fee to offer Dirac product capability and have paid for their technology and use of their Dirac ready Products.

Did you get yours up and running? Did you get Dirac license already?

 

[Sal1950]

I know it us real, but I am not sure it is an Audyssey DEQ thing, because my AVM70 seems to do that too. I don't really know, has anyone asked Audyssey, Denon, or Marantz about why the over boost?

Here's about all the info from Audyssey I know of.
There claim is our hearing drops off faster on sounds from the rear than from the front?
In real world use I've found it to be ill-concieved but I'm no expert on this?

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/official-audyssey-thread-part-ii.2376770/#post-52664721

"Movies are mastered at very high sound pressure levels with peaks reaching 105dB for the main content and 115dB for the bass! This is called 'reference' level. But we rarely listen at these levels in our own homes. This means that if we listen at, say, 20dB below 'reference' level this will affect the perceived balance of the frequencies that the sound mixer heard when he made the content. It will also affect the way we hear the surround sounds from the side and/or rear surround speakers.
Dynamic EQ was designed specifically to solve that problem. When Dynamic EQ is engaged, as you lower the volume away from 'reference' (ie master Volume of 0dB), Dynamic EQ continually adjusts the frequencies and surround levels to maintain the balance that the mixing engineer wanted you to hear."

A bit more here,

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level

 

[RF Air]

Did you get yours up and running? Did you get Dirac license already?

I've been out of town so I am running 2.2 without any correction for now. Ordered cable and working the rig for the Set-up.

Wanting to work with the whole room and play with speaker placement and adding new cables and installing cable management for the room. I have an adjacent workstation that is networked, so running everything as a permanent set-up for all of the network, usb and power management cables and components.

I will add Dirac after I play with Room layout and Audessey first.

 

[peng]

Here's about all the info from Audyssey I know of.
There claim is our hearing drops off faster on sounds from the rear than from the front?
In real world use I've found it to be ill-concieved but I'm no expert on this?

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/official-audyssey-thread-part-ii.2376770/#post-52664721

"Movies are mastered at very high sound pressure levels with peaks reaching 105dB for the main content and 115dB for the bass! This is called 'reference' level. But we rarely listen at these levels in our own homes. This means that if we listen at, say, 20dB below 'reference' level this will affect the perceived balance of the frequencies that the sound mixer heard when he made the content. It will also affect the way we hear the surround sounds from the side and/or rear surround speakers.
Dynamic EQ was designed specifically to solve that problem. When Dynamic EQ is engaged, as you lower the volume away from 'reference' (ie master Volume of 0dB), Dynamic EQ continually adjusts the frequencies and surround levels to maintain the balance that the mixing engineer wanted you to hear."

A bit more here,

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level

Thank you, I am aware of their explanations on the DEQ feature, but my point is the following (this time in point form for better clarity):

• DEQ has been there since probably around as early as 2010 or earlier, so over 10 years give or take a few years:
• I did not feel it over boosted the surround channels when I was using the AVR-4308CI (DEQ was added via FW update) and the AV7005, not even the AV8801 if I remember right, until a FW updates later, then boom, I felt the surround effects were too much at times, depending on the contents.
• It was there with the AVR-X4400H too, that was 2017.
• Noticed similar effects on my AVM70 that I acquired late last year, no DEQ but it has something similar (I assume), some Dolby post audio..., something like that.

So what I am suspecting is that since Audyssey did not (at least I did not detect it) seem to over boost (based on forum talks) the surround effects until around 2013-15 , is it possible that Audyssey, and potentially others such as Anthem's would over boost the surround effects because the film mix industry has changed their practice and that somehow triggered Audyssey, and potentially others to over boost the surround effects, compared to their older practice, say before year 2013-16?

Again, I don't know the answer for sure on this, and I am emphasizing my point is not about why they boost the lows, highs, and surround effects, but about why the boost level increased at one point and have not changes despite plenty of users comments about the unwelcomed increased boosts. I hope that clears up my original point/question.

 

[ArturoKiwi]

Thank you, I am aware of their explanations on the DEQ feature, but my point is the following (this time in point form for better clarity):

• DEQ has been there since probably around as early as 2010 or earlier, so over 10 years give or take a few years:
• I did not feel it over boosted the surround channels when I was using the AVR-4308CI (DEQ was added via FW update) and the AV7005, not even the AV8801 if I remember right, until a FW updates later, then boom, I felt the surround effects were too much at times, depending on the contents.
• It was there with the AVR-X4400H too, that was 2017.
• Noticed similar effects on my AVM70 that I acquired late last year, no DEQ but it has something similar (I assume), some Dolby post audio..., something like that.

So what I am suspecting is that since Audyssey did not (at least I did not detect it) seem to over boost (based on forum talks) the surround effects until around 2013-15 , is it possible that Audyssey, and potentially others such as Anthem's would over boost the surround effects because the film mix industry has changed their practice and that somehow triggered Audyssey, and potentially others to over boost the surround effects, compared to their older practice, say before year 2013-16?

Again, I don't know the answer for sure on this, and I am emphasizing my point is not about why they boost the lows, highs, and surround effects, but about why the boost level increased at one point and have not changes despite plenty of users comments about the unwelcomed increased boosts. I hope that clears up my original point/question.

Hi Peng, do you have a 2010 movie to try on your avm70?

 

[peng]

Hi Peng, do you have a 2010 movie to try on your avm70?

Yes, you are reading my mind. I never bother trying one to find out because I, like others, was 100% convince it was an "over boost" by Audyssey, or D+M and for some reason I never bother opening a ticket with Marantz and Audyssey. Now that I know the Anthem has the same behavior (and that could be a coincidence or just all in my head...), I will definitely try a 2010 or even 2008 movie. For SACDs, I never noticed the increased boost.

 

[EWL5]

Here's about all the info from Audyssey I know of.
There claim is our hearing drops off faster on sounds from the rear than from the front?
In real world use I've found it to be ill-concieved but I'm no expert on this?

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/official-audyssey-thread-part-ii.2376770/#post-52664721

"Movies are mastered at very high sound pressure levels with peaks reaching 105dB for the main content and 115dB for the bass! This is called 'reference' level. But we rarely listen at these levels in our own homes. This means that if we listen at, say, 20dB below 'reference' level this will affect the perceived balance of the frequencies that the sound mixer heard when he made the content. It will also affect the way we hear the surround sounds from the side and/or rear surround speakers.
Dynamic EQ was designed specifically to solve that problem. When Dynamic EQ is engaged, as you lower the volume away from 'reference' (ie master Volume of 0dB), Dynamic EQ continually adjusts the frequencies and surround levels to maintain the balance that the mixing engineer wanted you to hear."

A bit more here,

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level

I also find that hard to believe and it would entirely depend if your surround setup has speakers on the back wall vs side-walls and where you sit (ignoring height speakers for now).

Watching Servant on Apple TV+ has been an eerie experience as the sound mixers have done a great job using the surround channels to create atmosphere and amp up the creepy. Another movie that fooled me once was Signs. There's a scene when the aliens are running across the roof and I thought they were on my house!

 

[Dj7675]

Thank you, I am aware of their explanations on the DEQ feature, but my point is the following (this time in point form for better clarity):

• DEQ has been there since probably around as early as 2010 or earlier, so over 10 years give or take a few years:
• I did not feel it over boosted the surround channels when I was using the AVR-4308CI (DEQ was added via FW update) and the AV7005, not even the AV8801 if I remember right, until a FW updates later, then boom, I felt the surround effects were too much at times, depending on the contents.
• It was there with the AVR-X4400H too, that was 2017.
• Noticed similar effects on my AVM70 that I acquired late last year, no DEQ but it has something similar (I assume), some Dolby post audio..., something like that.

So what I am suspecting is that since Audyssey did not (at least I did not detect it) seem to over boost (based on forum talks) the surround effects until around 2013-15 , is it possible that Audyssey, and potentially others such as Anthem's would over boost the surround effects because the film mix industry has changed their practice and that somehow triggered Audyssey, and potentially others to over boost the surround effects, compared to their older practice, say before year 2013-16?

Again, I don't know the answer for sure on this, and I am emphasizing my point is not about why they boost the lows, highs, and surround effects, but about why the boost level increased at one point and have not changes despite plenty of users comments about the unwelcomed increased boosts. I hope that clears up my original point/question.

A member @-Matt- here did a nice job showing the amount of surround boost with DEQ on vs center/left channels with DEQ on. It shows as much as 6dB boost. At normal movie listening levels it never bothered me but at lower levels is always bothered me when I had Audyssey and used DEQ.

The problem with Audyssey Dynamic EQ

Overall I'm quite happy with what DEQ does to the frequency response (boosting bass and the high end); but I don't like what it does to the surround channel levels. I just made some measurements with different Dynamic EQ settings to confirm my impression that it boosts the surround channels too...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[peng]

A member @-Matt- here did a nice job showing the amount of surround boost with DEQ on vs center/left channels with DEQ on. It shows as much as 6dB boost. At normal movie listening levels it never bothered me but at lower levels is always bothered me when I had Audyssey and used DEQ.

The problem with Audyssey Dynamic EQ

Overall I'm quite happy with what DEQ does to the frequency response (boosting bass and the high end); but I don't like what it does to the surround channel levels. I just made some measurements with different Dynamic EQ settings to confirm my impression that it boosts the surround channels too...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Same here, and I mostly listen at volume -20 to -15 so it bothered me too.

 

[OCA]

I just installed my X3800H this past weekend and was searching for a cal file for the Audyssey mic! Thanks for posting this - it's exactly what I need since I found I now prefer the Audyssey mic due to it's ease of use with REW (and of course the new receiver!)

It also has less clocking issues compared to the Umik so you'll measure your speaker distances more accurately. USB mics inherently drop clock cycles unlike analog mics.

 

[ivo.f.doma]

I thought the PCM5100A was for zone 2.

Why should you accept a worse DAC for zone 2? Zone 2 is not just zone 2, but depending on the configuration, for example, Atmos or Auro channels. They don't even write it anywhere. They sell it and boast everywhere that it has a 8x DAC 5102! For example, Pioneer, Onkyo, Integra have the same 2x8 channel DAC on 16 channels.

 

[Everett T]

Why should you accept a worse DAC for zone 2? Zone 2 is not just zone 2, but depending on the configuration, for example, Atmos or Auro channels. They don't even write it anywhere. They sell it and boast everywhere that it has a DAC 5102! For example, Pioneer, Onkyo, Integra have the same 2x8 channel DAC on 16 channels.

Manufacturers do this all the time, some have different for the bed layer and the height channels. For Zone 2 applications it's really not that big of deal, as the VC mostly like will be the bottleneck in measurements.

 

[ivo.f.doma]

Manufacturers do this all the time, some have different for the bed layer and the height channels. For Zone 2 applications it's really not that big of deal, as the VC mostly like will be the bottleneck in measurements.

In their materials (see the table above in the thread) they write 8 x PCM5102A, so they should be there!
Zone 2 is not just zone 2, but depending on the configuration, for example, Atmos or Auro channels.

 

[rvsixer]

"Movies are mastered at very high sound pressure levels with peaks reaching 105dB for the main content and 115dB for the bass! This is called 'reference' level. But we rarely listen at these levels in our own homes.

Good info in that post, thanks.
It's my understand that reference level mastering, is done at 85dB average on the mains, with 20dB headroom requirement (so 105dB total). In the past I have monitored some of my movie watching levels, which turned out to be 75dB normally (with 95 dB peaks), but on a good action movie/scene I would most certainly crank it up.

So I wonder just how rare it is for people to listen at or close to reference levels. As soon as I have my new HT room setup, I will have to measure that. Of course my old listening room noise floor was 35-36dB...the new place is 25-26dB so I may indeed not turn it up as much.

 

[philbert1]

First time posting on this site; please be gentle (and let me know if this is the wrong thread for this question

I've got an old Denon 4520ci that I need to upgrade due to its very old HDMI board. The new X4800h looks like a possible contender. I'm a big fan of the amp inside my 4520ci. So I was wondering if any of you could speak to how the amp in the new X4800h might compare to my old 4520ci. Better? Worse? About the same? I'm driving a 5.1 set of 20 year old 7.1 M&K 4ohm speakers.

If the 4800's amp isn't up to par with the 4520ci, then what about something like the Marantz Cinema 40 or the Anthem 740?

Thanks in advance!