Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[dlaloum]

@dlaloum
May I ask if also considered the 6800? If I had to buy an AVR now, I would probably shed out the cash and get the 6800. Honestly, I feel like the 4800 is kinda like the awkward middle child with the current pricing and the worst deal between the 3800/4800/6800...
The 4800 just doesn't offer much compared to the 3800 for a significant premium, the 6800 is also quite a bit more expensive (here the 4800 is currently around 2450 USD while the 6800 is on sale for 3100 USD) but it also does offer some nice upgrades over the 4800 like a different amp design, (slightly) more powerful PSU, better DAC's, a newer HDMI-board and 2 additional channels, which even if you don't use them can increase the resell value - especially considering the Dirac-fee.

Sorry, I don't want to spoil your excitement for the 4800 - it is a nice unit and I definitely enjoy it I just wanted to know the reason for your buying decision since you already admitted that getting the 4800 over the 3800 was mainly an emotional decision (just like it was for me a year ago) so why not get the 6800? Of course this depends on the price difference between the two...

I looked at the price, and simply could not justify the difference.... If I was to go into that price range, I would go for the A10H - at which point the amps are a bit more substantive.... On the other hand, my price benchmark was the Integra DRX3.4, for which I paid AU$1700 (on a pre-release order, receiving a unit from the first batch to arrive in the country, in March 2022) - it had the right number of channels for me, Dirac Live onboard, and great performance when paired with my power amps.

The X3800 with Dirac Live was already running at an MSRP of AU$2500 and then the price of Dirac Live AU$550 ... so an MSRP of AU$3050... quite a steep step up for no real improvement in performance....
Art is the magic potion that got me - along with the Black Friday sales on both the AVR's and the Dirac Bundle.
End result as X4800 = AU$3000, + Dirac Bundle AU$1000 = AU$4000 all up ( the MSRP for the X4800 is AU$4300 on its own, so I figure I did OK)

The X6800 would take me up to MSRP of AU$6500, and even with BF sales the price is still AU$5200 (I could probably bargain it down a little from there) - but with the ART bundle that would be AU$6000 - it's just too much, especially given there is highly unlikely to be an audible difference with the relatively basic X3800!!

In any case - you will hear more once it arrives to Casa Laloum....

 

[xian]

It's been three years since the 4800 was released. Will the 4900 come out next year?

 

[fzst]

I looked at the price, and simply could not justify the difference.... If I was to go into that price range, I would go for the A10H - at which point the amps are a bit more substantive.... On the other hand, my price benchmark was the Integra DRX3.4, for which I paid AU$1700 (on a pre-release order, receiving a unit from the first batch to arrive in the country, in March 2022) - it had the right number of channels for me, Dirac Live onboard, and great performance when paired with my power amps.

The X3800 with Dirac Live was already running at an MSRP of AU$2500 and then the price of Dirac Live AU$550 ... so an MSRP of AU$3050... quite a steep step up for no real improvement in performance....
Art is the magic potion that got me - along with the Black Friday sales on both the AVR's and the Dirac Bundle.
End result as X4800 = AU$3000, + Dirac Bundle AU$1000 = AU$4000 all up ( the MSRP for the X4800 is AU$4300 on its own, so I figure I did OK)

The X6800 would take me up to MSRP of AU$6500, and even with BF sales the price is still AU$5200 (I could probably bargain it down a little from there) - but with the ART bundle that would be AU$6000 - it's just too much, especially given there is highly unlikely to be an audible difference with the relatively basic X3800!!

Ok in that case I get it... that is another substantial price difference.

In any case - you will hear more once it arrives to Casa Laloum....

Looking forward to your findings.

 

[fzst]

It's been three years since the 4800 was released. Will the 4900 come out next year?

I highly doubt it. Now that ART was released on the 4800, what could they possibly improve in a 4900 over the 4800 that would warrant a new model? There is no new HDMI standard (yet), no new sound format and the best RC-software on the market is already available for the current model... To implement better hardware as a differentiator is probably too expensive and people are not that interested in that anyways, mostly you catch attention and buyers by releasing new features and there are just not many possible options for D&M to do that...

The only possibility I see is implementing new additional manual EQ-Options to close the gap to the high end sector like the Storm or Trinnov or more channels/ better channel separation like getting more subwoofer preouts - I cannot see either of those options implemented in a cost-effective AVR either though so I think we will probably not see new 3900/4900 models for at least another year maybe even more...

 

[dlaloum]

It's been three years since the 4800 was released. Will the 4900 come out next year?

I put my money down yesterday on the 4800... therefore the 4900 should be out tomorrow....

The only feature I find to be missing from the current range, is a Perceptual Loudness feature that can be used alongside Dirac (it is present with Audyssey as Dynamic EQ)

 

[peng]

It's the ballbreaker speaker that drives amp differences in subjective terms (and objective if you have the tools...)

Driving a 1.6ohm capacitive load, causes trouble with many amp designs... a lot of amps get unstable under 2 ohms (many under 3ohm) - at which point it isn't current or heat dissipation which is the issue, but the way the feedback loops respond to the low impedance - which sends distortion skyrocketing.

The issue has to do mainly with the phase angle than the low impedance, in that sense high capacitive load would be more likely to cause stability issue especially if the feedback loop is not too well designed. Obviously, 1 ohm is an extreme test, at that low impedance, even a pure resistor would cause stability issues, when such tests were done, they would usually be "dynamic output" tests, i.e. for very short durations.

The Quad current dumping amps are not exactly powerhouses, my 606 is rated at 135W - so roughly the same as the X4800 - but it is specified (and known from experience of may users!) to be unconditionally stable into ANY load - even 1 ohm loads don't faze it, although it's power output is then severely constrained by the power supply current capability.
The Crown XLS amps are formally specified at 1ohm - so another design that is unfazed by extreme speakers.

I though I told you before than my ex Denon 3805 did better than a Quad current dumping amp is an 1 ohm test that AVtech did many years ago. The QUAD amp is great at the time but there's lots of hype about their current dumping design as well.

It is interesting, that the SR876 (RIP) could handle those speakers OK, and so could the Integra DTR 70.4.... but both of those were highly reputed as very "muscular" AVR's... (equivalent to RZ70).

From a design perspective, the underlying design of all the Onkyo amps have been consistent - using the "triple darlington" principles... and they claim to do the same in the more basic models including my DRX3.4.... but clearly there are differences between the basic version and the flagship versions!!

Proof of the pudding is in the eating.... we shall see how the X4800 fares.

We have beaten that horse dead already, imo you can't just base on your experience with that one speaker in that one, or two specific use case, there might have been other factors causing the difference in performance, than you one you would like to believe, sorry, I am skeptical, having seen that test report by Milleraudioresearch, who had done lots of tests for manufacturers in the early years.

About those two tests, I would say the Denon AVR-3805, rated 120 W 8 ohm and the QUAD 909 140 W 8 ohm are quite comparable based on the output specs.

That is not to say a Denon AV receiver is as good or better than a real power amp like the QUAD 909 for stereo use, and in that case I would take the QUAD for sure. My point is just that internet hearsay is a culprit for so many misconceptions created/resulted in the audio world, or any world actually, lol. In your use cases, I 'll repeat what I said before, would love to be there when the comparisons were done, and would try to investigate what the real issues might have been, though it might take more than a high end Fluke meter.

 

[peng]

I looked at the price, and simply could not justify the difference.... If I was to go into that price range, I would go for the A10H - at which point the amps are a bit more substantive.... On the other hand, my price benchmark was the Integra DRX3.4, for which I paid AU$1700 (on a pre-release order, receiving a unit from the first batch to arrive in the country, in March 2022) - it had the right number of channels for me, Dirac Live onboard, and great performance when paired with my power amps.

I think you are right, the main advantages of the 6800 are the DAC IC and the 13 channel processing capability vs 11, not counting the subouts. Power amp section is most likely the same (based on what I saw on the Cinema 40), and the output of 140 W vs 120 W is insignificant.

If you don't need 13 channels and are comfortable with SINAD 95 vs 105, then why not save money, I would..

 

[EngineerNate]

@amirm what is the practical implication of the weak OOB filtering in 48khz mode? Trying to understand if this is something that should push a buyer to the Tx-RZ70 at the same price point.

 

[dkess]

I received an X4800H today. I noticed that the volume knob is scraping against the chassis when turned. I can hear and feel it. The knob feels like what you'd find on a $300 receiver, not a premium model. My old Sony ES has a silky smooth and silent volume knob, as a comparison. Does anyone else have a stiff and scraping volume knob?

 

[fzst]

I received an X4800H today. I noticed that the volume knob is scraping against the chassis when turned. I can hear and feel it. The knob feels like what you'd find on a $300 receiver, not a premium model. My old Sony ES has a silky smooth and silent volume knob, as a comparison. Does anyone else have a stiff and scraping volume knob?

I just checked it, my volume knob does scrape ever so slightly as well. I did also notice that when I first got my 4800, my 4400h seemed to have a bit sturdier knobs... Honestly, the whole receiver doesn't exactly scream "premium" (which it also isn't really if we're honest). I don't want to defend Denon here but if I buy an AVR with that many components and features for <2000 USD (I got it for 1600USD last BF), I don't expect a "perfect piece of engineering" full of solid metal parts and other premium materials... the worth of today's AVRs lies mostly in a good software development, with tons of (working!) features and the ability to seamlessly integrate lots of different source and reproduction devices.

Sure, they could have made a little bit bigger of an effort with the build quality but frankly, if I could change something about the build quality, the first thing I'd change would be a better built remote. The Denon remotes are just very cheap plastic things that don't even have a backlight. I actually interact with the remote every day so I would definitely appreciate the better build quality there, whereas with the knobs on the device itself there is pretty much no interaction at all. To be honest, I don't think I ever touched them after I set the AVR up a year ago... Denon probably realised that in today's world noone uses these anymore anyways and figured they could save some money there.. - which is completely fair impo, if you want higher physical build quality, you'd have to get the Marantz equivalent. Denon has always been the "no frills, value oriented brand" that gets you the most SQ and features for the dollar - and I very much appreciate them for that.

 

[DrStranger]

I put my money down yesterday on the 4800... therefore the 4900 should be out tomorrow....

The only feature I find to be missing from the current range, is a Perceptual Loudness feature that can be used alongside Dirac (it is present with Audyssey as Dynamic EQ)

And Sony 360.

But due to x2850h implementation, who knows, they might add it to all next gen. *fingers crossed*

 

[dlaloum]

And Sony 360.

But due to x2850h implementation, who knows, they might add it to all next gen. *fingers crossed*

I'm not currently seeing the point of Sony 360...

We already have Dolby Atmos, DTS and Auro - all of which now have 3D spatial positioning encoding technologies.

Is this just another Sony Betamax situation?

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

I'm not currently seeing the point of Sony 360...

We already have Dolby Atmos, DTS and Auro - all of which now have 3D spatial positioning encoding technologies.

Is this just another Sony Betamax situation?

Probably

 

[ban25]

Probably

It's even closer to i.Link, the Sony brand of Firewire, since 360RA is just MPEG-H under the hood. IIRC there is no content available in 360RA anymore. Tidal offered it for a bit, but they dropped it last year.

 

[kawauso]

I'm not currently seeing the point of Sony 360...

We already have Dolby Atmos, DTS and Auro - all of which now have 3D spatial positioning encoding technologies.

Is this just another Sony Betamax situation?

Auro might end up with the same future as 360RA, but dlaloum, have you ever considered giving Auro a try?
Even without native content, the upmix alone sounds remarkably good.

By the way, you probably know this already, but Denon gives you up to six Dirac filter slots.
(three slots each under Speaker Preset 1 and 2).
If you create different house-curves for each slot, you can use them just like a loudness control.
You can even assign four of them to the Quick Select buttons, so switching between curves becomes extremely easy.

 

[kawauso]

I just checked it, my volume knob does scrape ever so slightly as well. I did also notice that when I first got my 4800, my 4400h seemed to have a bit sturdier knobs... Honestly, the whole receiver doesn't exactly scream "premium" (which it also isn't really if we're honest). I don't want to defend Denon here but if I buy an AVR with that many components and features for <2000 USD (I got it for 1600USD last BF), I don't expect a "perfect piece of engineering" full of solid metal parts and other premium materials... the worth of today's AVRs lies mostly in a good software development, with tons of (working!) features and the ability to seamlessly integrate lots of different source and reproduction devices.

Sure, they could have made a little bit bigger of an effort with the build quality but frankly, if I could change something about the build quality, the first thing I'd change would be a better built remote. The Denon remotes are just very cheap plastic things that don't even have a backlight. I actually interact with the remote every day so I would definitely appreciate the better build quality there, whereas with the knobs on the device itself there is pretty much no interaction at all. To be honest, I don't think I ever touched them after I set the AVR up a year ago... Denon probably realised that in today's world noone uses these anymore anyways and figured they could save some money there.. - which is completely fair impo, if you want higher physical build quality, you'd have to get the Marantz equivalent. Denon has always been the "no frills, value oriented brand" that gets you the most SQ and features for the dollar - and I very much appreciate them for that.

How about using the RC-1250 remote from the A1H?
It’s a bit heavy and has a cool metallic feel, which gives it a premium, high-quality impression.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Auro might end up with the same future as 360RA, but dlaloum, have you ever considered giving Auro a try?
Even without native content, the upmix alone sounds remarkably good.

By the way, you probably know this already, but Denon gives you up to six Dirac filter slots.
(three slots each under Speaker Preset 1 and 2).
If you create different house-curves for each slot, you can use them just like a loudness control.
You can even assign four of them to the Quick Select buttons, so switching between curves becomes extremely easy.

Sounds like old eq presets. I thought the great Dirac algorithms wouldn’t need 70’s help. What a joke.

 

[kawauso]

Sounds like old eq presets. I thought the great Dirac algorithms wouldn’t need 70’s help. What a joke.

The level of loudness that feels comfortable varies greatly from person to person.
Instead of using a fixed loudness curve, being able to set your own house curve can better match your preferences.
If there were any products from the 1970s that allowed switching between four EQ presets via remote control, please let me know.

 

[dlaloum]

Auro might end up with the same future as 360RA, but dlaloum, have you ever considered giving Auro a try?
Even without native content, the upmix alone sounds remarkably good.

By the way, you probably know this already, but Denon gives you up to six Dirac filter slots.
(three slots each under Speaker Preset 1 and 2).
If you create different house-curves for each slot, you can use them just like a loudness control.
You can even assign four of them to the Quick Select buttons, so switching between curves becomes extremely easy.

Yes, I have had the Auromatic mixer in mind for a long time.... I have no Auro encoded material, and doubt I am likely to get any, but the mixer is of interest!

I had heard it mentioned about the 6 slots - which is great, and I will probably configure them as my "loudness" feature.

I've also ordered an RC1240 remote (from the X6700 ) which includes TV control...

 

[CapMan]

Before you upgrade for DIRAC, try the Audyssey one scripts from @OCA. I'd suggest starting with Evo One Express - and you can have a well running room correction in about half an hour...

Not questioning the efficacy of OCA in any way, everything I have heard is very positive, but just wanted to say from personal experience that using ART in my smallish room has really been a game changer (with a 4800)

Even when the biggest room modes were moderated with EQ adjustments or convolution filters , my room still felt like it was hanging onto some bass notes .

When your main musical enjoyment is acoustic jazz, that's just not helpful for walking double bass lines!

Anyway ART has really done a lot to properly address that issue for me and clean up the decay in that area. Cheap fix at the price IMHO...