Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[peng]

Yeah it's insane value right now but since I don't have any external amps atm, I don't want to get a weaker amp section than I have right now in the 4400h even if it's only a minor downgrade. I will buy Dirac in any case since it's the main reason I want to upgrade my AVR.

If the 3800 is on your short list, then it would be my pick. The 6800 is not $2,000 better unless you ned to do something like 7.1.6.

At below $1,000, the 3800 is unbeatable.

 

[fzst]

If the 3800 is on your short list, then it would be my pick.

It's actually not because I don't want to get an AVR with a weaker amp section than I already have. I might consider it if I already had external amps but as it stands, it's not an option for me.

The 6800 is not $2,000 better unless you ned to do something like 7.1.6.

At below $1,000, the 3800 is unbeatable.

Yeah of course it's not I agree. The law of diminishing returns kick in hard after the 3800. You probably don't get a real "noticeable" upgrade unless you go all the way up to the A10H or Marantz Cinema 30. But since those out of my price range it's either the 4800 or 6800.
Honestly, if it wasn't for the sh*tshow situation surrounding Sound United right now, I'd probably wait another few months with my AVR purchase but if it really comes to the worst, we might not be able to purchase Denon AVRs in a few months...

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

t's actually not because I don't want to get an AVR with a weaker amp section than I already have.

Eeh.. according to Denon's website:
4400H
Power (8 Ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2-Channel) 150 W -> 1m 90dB/W speaker, away from walls = 111.8 dB
4800H
Power (8 Ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% THD, 2-Channel) 125W -> 1m 90dB/W speaker, away from walls = 111dB
3800H
Power (8 Ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2-Channel)105W -> 1m 90dB/W speaker, away from walls =110.2 dB

You can calculate here: https://mehlau.net/audio/spl/

I doubt you'd be able to notice these differences in a practical scenario. You'd need some SERIOUS amp power, like 500W to really make a difference.


Have to say, owning a Dirac Studio multichannel license (that I no longer need, if the AVR works as expected), it stings that it is not transferable and I have to re-buy the same product. :<

At least the Black Friday -20% sale takes some of the edge off. Still, it's 250€ for something I already own.
Stupid licensing model, if you ask me. These should be account bound for non-professional use, not device bound. At least bot at these rather ridiculous moon-price points.

Thankfully I can forego the extra 300€ (WTF) for bass control, since I only have one sub.

 

[fzst]

Eeh.. according to Denon's website:
4400H
Power (8 Ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2-Channel) 150 W -> 1m 90dB/W speaker, away from walls = 111.8 dB
4800H
Power (8 Ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% THD, 2-Channel) 125W -> 1m 90dB/W speaker, away from walls = 111dB
3800H
Power (8 Ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2-Channel)105W -> 1m 90dB/W speaker, away from walls =110.2 dB

You can calculate here: https://mehlau.net/audio/spl/

I doubt you'd be able to notice these differences in a practical scenario. You'd need some SERIOUS amp power, like 500W to really make a difference.

Thx for the link, yeah they are indeed very similar in terms of power/output capabilities (btw: the 4400h is rated at the same 125W with 0.05% THD).
But then again, I'm not sure if we really can go with just the theoretical max output an amp can generate with certain sensitivity speakers to assess it's performance otherwise we could all just go with some cheap 500W PA amps to drive our speakers...

Have to say, owning a Dirac Studio multichannel license (that I no longer need, if the AVR works as expected), it stings that it is not transferable and I have to re-buy the same product. :<

At least the Black Friday -20% sale takes some of the edge off. Still, it's 250€ for something I already own.
Stupid licensing model, if you ask me. These should be account bound for non-professional use, not device bound. At least bot at these rather ridiculous moon-price points.

Yeah it is kinda frustrating for us consumers but I can understand Dirac's business model. It pretty much has to be device bound otherwise they would make so much less money. There would never be any improvement to the software anymore if anyone could just buy the software one time and never has to purchase a licence again - that would almost certainly mean that Dirac cannot be profitable...

Thankfully I can forego the extra 300€ (WTF) for bass control, since I only have one sub.

I'd have to buy the whole suite since I have dual subs (Arendal 1723 1S) and I'm even planning on getting a third. Honestly, I believe that that's where Dirac brings the most benefit over Audyssey - with multiple subs.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

But then again, I'm not sure if we really can go with just the theoretical max output an amp can generate with certain sensitivity speakers to assess it's performance otherwise we could all just go with some cheap 500W PA amps to drive our speakers...

We can, the math doesn't care whether it some uber expensive boutique brand or a cheap class D.
All that matters is that the amp operates linearly and has low enough distortion/noise levels for our purpose. Naturally these need to be lower for a quiet home theater as opposed to a noisy venue filled with people.

Amp watt numbers in mainstream consumer products is nothing but marketing hype. The differences are too small to be relevant.

I'd have to buy the whole suite since I have dual subs (Arendal 1723 1S) and I'm even planning on getting a third. Honestly, I believe that that's where Dirac brings the most benefit over Audyssey - with multiple subs.

Yeah if I had multi-subs, Bass control would be a no-brainer. But for a single 1723 I don't think it's necessary. Crossover region with a bog standard 80Hz setting is absolutely non problematic on my old AVR (according to REW measurements), so I don't expect it to be an issue on the new one either.

I think the Dirac pricing is mostly because it is a fringe software that is marketed hard at the "premium audio" population. Doubt they sell licenses in a high enough volume to really bring down the price. Still, I feel that the "per device" instead of "per user" is a rip-off. At least the license should be convertable to a new device.
Look, I don't expect them to give me the license for another device for free but I no longer need the studio license when the AVR does the correction, so it would be nice to just be able to switch.

I mean think about it: in 3 years the AVR goes belly-up and you have to buy a replacement. You'll be spending yet another 350€ for yet another license of the same product you already bought.

That's basically fraud at that point.

 

[Mort]

At least the license should be convertable to a new device.

They would have to switch to a subscription model. Would cost the same possibly.

I would pay $150-$200 more for an x4800h over a 3800h.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

They would have to switch to a subscription model. Would cost the same possibly.

I would pay $150-$200 more for an x4800h over a 3800h.

No they wouldn't.
You would purchase ONE license and that is applicable to ONE device. Basically how most buyable software actually works.
MS Office doesn't care when I kick it off my PC and install it on my Laptop, as long as it does not run concurrently on both.

Dirac Studio already requires an active Internet connection to even start (including the processor VST, so no Internet -> no room correction), the check would be trivial to implement.

 

[kyuu]

I mean think about it: in 3 years the AVR goes belly-up and you have to buy a replacement. You'll be spending yet another 350€ for yet another license of the same product you already bought.

 

[Mort]

No they wouldn't.

I think they would lol.

How will they make up that revenue without going to subscription, which is exactly what Microsoft does 99% of the time to use your example.

 

[fzst]

No they wouldn't.
You would purchase ONE license and that is applicable to ONE device. Basically how most buyable software actually works.

Yeah but most of modern software sadly is on a subscription basis. It sucks for us consumers but it seems to be necessary to keep the development going..

MS Office doesn't care when I kick it off my PC and install it on my Laptop, as long as it does not run concurrently on both.

That is true of course but Windows does care and your MS office is also a subscription. It definitely sucks but well nobody cared when it was just Audyssey and you couldn't get it in your new receiver. Now that we have to pay the license ourselves, suddenly everyone is up in arms - I get that it sucks for us consumers but I really cannot see how Dirac would make money in the long run any other way. Somebody has to pay the continuous software development either through the hardware bound model they are doing now or a subscription model - I certainly prefer the one they do now. What we should question instead is why Denon doesn't pay the licencensing fee for us, at least the basic live bundle - I can understand why they don't that (on their cheaper models) either though.

 

[fzst]

If the 3800 is on your short list, then it would be my pick. The 6800 is not $2,000 better unless you ned to do something like 7.1.6.

At below $1,000, the 3800 is unbeatable.

It really wasn't on my radar at all but it's hard to ignore at it's current >800 bucks price tag.

We can, the math doesn't care whether it some uber expensive boutique brand or a cheap class D.
All that matters is that the amp operates linearly and has low enough distortion/noise levels for our purpose. Naturally these need to be lower for a quiet home theater as opposed to a noisy venue filled with people.

Amp watt numbers in mainstream consumer products is nothing but marketing hype. The differences are too small to be relevant.

Hmm... taking this to heart, I'm actually thinking about getting the 3800 with a full Dirac license and a 3 channel amp (do you have some recommendations?) instead of a 4800. This would probably run me about the same as getting a 6800 - which is kinda crazy... I am worried about the inferior DAC/SINAD performance of the 3800 though or shouldn't I be?

 

[fzst]

I mean think about it: in 3 years the AVR goes belly-up and you have to buy a replacement. You'll be spending yet another 350€ for yet another license of the same product you already bought.

Yeah that's the problem though isn't it. Also that's why it kinda feels stupid to get a 3800 or even 4800 for that matter and buy the full Dirac licence for it. I mean 800 bucks for the AVR and 500 for the Dirac licence? Feels kinda ridiculous That's why I was thinking about getting the 6800 because I want to future proof my AVR needs as much as possible so that I don't need/want to buy another AVR in ~3 years and therefore would need to purchase the Dirac licence again...

 

[Mort]

Yeah that's the problem though isn't it. Also that's why it kinda feels stupid to get a 3800 or even 4800 for that matter and buy the full Dirac licence for it. I mean 800 bucks for the AVR and 500 for the Dirac licence? Feels kinda ridiculous That's why I was thinking about getting the 6800 because I want to future proof my AVR needs as much as possible so that I don't need/want to buy another AVR in ~3 years and therefore would need to purchase the Dirac licence again...

Rather than rigidly 'future proofing' maybe think about resale value? 3800 will probably maintain the highest percentage.

I do Dirac through MiniDsp which doesn't offer dblc but has better manual tools I think.

 

[Randyman...]

I am worried about the inferior DAC/SINAD performance of the 3800 though or shouldn't I be?

You shouldn't be. SINAD chasers might be worried, and would never know unless it was measured

 

[kyuu]

Yeah that's the problem though isn't it. Also that's why it kinda feels stupid to get a 3800 or even 4800 for that matter and buy the full Dirac licence for it. I mean 800 bucks for the AVR and 500 for the Dirac licence? Feels kinda ridiculous That's why I was thinking about getting the 6800 because I want to future proof my AVR needs as much as possible so that I don't need/want to buy another AVR in ~3 years and therefore would need to purchase the Dirac licence again...

What features does the 6800 have that "future proof" it relative to the 3800? Doesn't seem to make sense to spend well over a grand more on the AVR over fear of having to pay for a $500 license.

People seem to have a big issue mentally paying a lot for software even when spending many times that amount on hardware. Good room correction, like Dirac, is easily the most value-for-your-dollar you can get towards improving your audio experience.

 

[Randyman...]

4 discrete sub outs make the 3800h a future-proof beast more than most will ever need IMNSHO...

 

[fzst]

Rather than rigidly 'future proofing' maybe think about resale value? 3800 will probably maintain the highest percentage.

Definitely but frankly, I don't worry about resell value that since 'm planning on using it for a long time I won't getting a new AV for at least 5 years, if possible even 10. The only thing that might make me wanne uprade in the near future would be ART but I doubt that this is going to be a problem, either SU is going down and we probably won't see AVRs with ART in this price range anyways or the survive and will be providing the update on their X800 as well...

 

[fzst]

What features does the 6800 have that "future proof" it relative to the 3800? Doesn't seem to make sense to spend well over a grand more on the AVR over fear of having to pay for a $500 license.

People seem to have a big issue mentally paying a lot for software even when spending many times that amount on hardware. Good room correction, like Dirac, is easily the most value-for-your-dollar you can get towards improving your audio experience.

I don't mind spending the 500 on Dirac, I'm pretty sure it will be worth it. I'm worried about attaching it to a ~1K AVR...

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

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You assume that you can get the same model again.
Imagine Denon really going down. That might be difficult unless you factor in the 2nd hand market. If you have to buy a different brand or even model, your Dirac license is toast.

How will they make up that revenue without going to subscription, which is exactly what Microsoft does 99% of the time to use your example.

Don't confuse them with Adobe. You can still buy regular Office versions. Yes, the trend in general is going more and more towards SaaS.

Yeah but most of modern software sadly is on a subscription basis. It sucks for us consumers but it seems to be necessary to keep the PROFIT MARGINS going..

Fixed that for you. This ain't about survival it's just pure greed.

It really wasn't on my radar at all but it's hard to ignore at it's current >800 bucks price tag.

Hmm... taking this to heart, I'm actually thinking about getting the 3800 with a full Dirac license and a 3 channel amp (do you have some recommendations?) instead of a 4800. This would probably run me about the same as getting a 6800 - which is kinda crazy... I am worried about the inferior DAC/SINAD performance of the 3800 though or shouldn't I be?

Last time I checked, Amir-senpai didn't find any AUDIBLE issues. Just "not overly great" engineering performance. Should be a non-issue in most situations.
Why do you need a 3 channel amp? If the 3800H is not beefy enough for your setup, neither will the 4800H be.

To be frank: if the 3800H was available in Silver, I'd have bought it in a heartbeat. Living in a small 1 room apartment, I try to avoid big black boxes. Even got my Arendal in white. :'D

People seem to have a big issue mentally paying a lot for software even when spending many times that amount on hardware. Good room correction, like Dirac, is easily the most value-for-your-dollar you can get towards improving your audio experience.

I don't have a problem spending 500 bucks on Dirac. I did so for the Studio version and concur that it made a big difference. Especially in terms of bringing my old rears closer to my Focals. They REALLY benefited from Dirac.

It just feels scummy that I have to buy the exact same products again and don't even get any discount etc for already being a Dirac customer.

Rather than rigidly 'future proofing' maybe think about resale value?

To be honest: "future proofing" and "resale value" of an AVR is a vain effort. The moment Dolby releases new codecs or we get new HDMI standards the value plummets.

I'm not exchanging my 10yr old Yammy because I am unhappy with it's sound quality. I change it because in 10 years tech has advanced a lot. Then again, 10 years of use for a 250€ AVR is pretty dang amazing, if you ask me.
If my 4800H manages 10 years, I'll be a happy camper and consider it a good expense (including buying Dirac again).

 

[Randyman...]

RE: Longevity:

After banging through $5000 in T175/T175HD Pre/Pro's from NAD and tons of issues (literally tons of issues), I got a little over 10 years from a Denon 4000X that was picked up for $850 as a refurb in 2014. Flawless, rock solid, and was a far superior experience than the whole NAD ordeal.

Only replaced the $850 X4000 for the $1000 AVR-X3800h for the 4-discrete sub outs (had a Mini DSP 2x4 on the X4000 to help here), editable Audyssey w/iOS App (a big reason for the upgrade TBH), Dirac/DLBC and 4K HDMI. Atmos and modern codecs - I didn't care so much - but they are all included with basically any AVR today. I don't believe longevity is a concern, and with that feature set, I'm good for the next 10 years. Going to the 4800 or 6800 would not add anything in my application (for features, or for longevity IMNSHO) - I'd just have less money in my wallet. And some of those savings are going to speakers (KH150's) - which is generally a better place to spend money.