Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[DoctorRobert]

I finally have some time to play with REW to try and see what the heck is the deal with Denon/Marantz stereo vs direct mode vs pure direct mode in terms of whether bass management would work in each mode.

As mentioned before, my Denon 4000 series and Marantz AV8801 are long gone, I know those can do the basic management in direct mode but to actually test it out with REW, I can only use my baby Denon, the AVR-X1800H. My findings were as follows:

Stereo and Direct mode:

Crossover settings does work in direct mode, exactly the same way, and same performance as Stereo mode, except of course in direct mode, Audyssey is disabled. So the subwoofer will work too obviously, though the AVR-X1800H does not have the 2ch stereo playback menu, I think only the AVR-X4800H, Cinema 40 and above have that feature.

Pure direct mode:

- Bass management, even the basic crossover settings will not work, you can still set it to whatever you want, but it would have no effects, based on the REW graphs.
- Subwoofer will not work, unless LFE is set to LFE+M
- Subwoofer will work with LFE set to LFE+M, but crossover settings would still have no effects.

I hope this help clarify some of those back and forth post last month in this thread. If there are any particular measurements to take, just let me know, I will leave the mic out for the next few days.

Note: Again, my findings are based on using my AVR-X1800H, though I am confident that if this entry level model can do it, the higher models should be able to do the same, likely more...

Edit: Forgot to mention that, again, the 18000 does not have the 2 ch stereo playback settings so for analog input sources and using direct mode/pure direct mode, the sub-out will work but it likely don't have any bass management. It's okay for me because I would naturally be using DLBC (that has bass management) if I use analog input with my ext. dacs.

Your findings for the Direct mode puzzle me compared to my AVR-X2600h:

• In stereo mode: with a stereo signal as input (2.0), my subwoofer is active and Audyssey corrections are applied.
• In direct and pure direct mode: with a stereo signal (2.0 or analog) as input, my subwoofer gets no signal and Audyssey is omitted. No crossovers, just straight stereo. The only difference between direct and pure direct is that front display of my AVR goes off pure direct mode.
• In direct and pure direct mode: with a digital signal that contains a dedicated LFE signal (x.1, typically 5.1), my subwoofer becomes active, but again no Audyssey corrections.

This matches the description in the User Manual. It also seems in line with the implication of direct and pure direct, that there is no processing.

 

[EWL5]

Your findings for the Direct mode puzzle me compared to my AVR-X2600h:

• In stereo mode: with a stereo signal as input (2.0), my subwoofer is active and Audyssey corrections are applied.
• In direct and pure direct mode: with a stereo signal (2.0 or analog) as input, my subwoofer gets no signal and Audyssey is omitted. No crossovers, just straight stereo. The only difference between direct and pure direct is that front display of my AVR goes off pure direct mode.
• In direct and pure direct mode: with a digital signal that contains a dedicated LFE signal (x.1, typically 5.1), my subwoofer becomes active, but again no Audyssey corrections.

This matches the description in the User Manual. It also seems in line with the implication of direct and pure direct, that there is no processing.

To me, it just sounds like a slight tweaking of the "Direct" output by Denon. The 2600 came out in 2019 so, yes, a lot can happen in just 5 years (could be even fewer years if the 2800/3800/4800 behave the same)!

 

[peng]

Your findings for the Direct mode puzzle me compared to my AVR-X2600h:

• In direct and pure direct mode: with a stereo signal (2.0 or analog) as input, my subwoofer gets no signal and Audyssey is omitted. No crossovers, just straight stereo.

Have you tried LFE+M? You should have subwoofer output if you do, in direct mode. Audyssey will not work regardless, obviously. You likely can still set the crossovers but it would have no effects but this feature is still useful, just not as useful as if crossover settings still in effect. That's the only part I could no longer test because I got rid of both my 4400 and AV8801, though by memory, I was quite sure crossover settings worked when it's done in the 2Ch stereo playback menu that is not available in the lower series.

I read the manual and there's nothing in it that says you can't have subwoofer output. You don't necessarily need the DSP to have subwoofer output.

It does say:

That is a little vague, though the word "always" could be interpreted as including direct mode. You are going to have to test it out.

 

[DoctorRobert]

Have you tried LFE+M? You should have subwoofer output if you do, in direct mode. Audyssey will not work regardless, obviously. You likely can still set the crossovers but it would have no effects but this feature is still useful, just not as useful as if crossover settings still in effect. That's the only part I could no longer test because I got rid of both my 4400 and AV8801, though by memory, I was quite sure crossover settings worked when it's done in the 2Ch stereo playback menu that is not available in the lower series.

I read the manual and there's nothing in it that says you can't have subwoofer output. You don't necessarily need the DSP to have subwoofer output.

It does say:

View attachment 399067

That is a little vague, though the word "always" could be interpreted as including direct mode. You are going to have to test it out.

I am OK with the behavior of my AVR. I use the 'direct mode' for music that gets too 'boomy', maybe related to a mismatch between Audessey dynamic volume and mastering with too much dynamic compression. I just wanted to mention that @EWL5 description not fully matches my experience.
YMMV

 

[amper42]

Simply adjusting Audyssey Reference Level Offset from 0dB to 10db or 15dB can make a huge difference in correcting booming bass. If the sound is boomy this one move can keep your EQ in place yet remove the excess low frequency response. You can try each setting in real time and select your desired preference.

 

[DoctorRobert]

Simply adjusting Audyssey Reference Level Offset from 0dB to 10db or 15dB can make a huge difference in correcting booming bass. If the sound is boomy this one move can keep your EQ in place yet remove the excess low frequency response. You can try each setting in real time and select your desired preference.

View attachment 399101

I am aware of that. The problem is that stereo music mastering is all over the place, even more so with radio streams. So I have a setting that seems to work with most music most of the time. And for times that I want something different (that can be because of my mood or because of the music; one cannot be sure), I use the available buttons. The highest 'reference level offset' is 15 dB. Sometimes I think that a 25 dB option would be nice. But again, that depends very much on the music (or my mood).

 

[ban25]

Have you tried LFE+M? You should have subwoofer output if you do, in direct mode. Audyssey will not work regardless, obviously. You likely can still set the crossovers but it would have no effects but this feature is still useful, just not as useful as if crossover settings still in effect. That's the only part I could no longer test because I got rid of both my 4400 and AV8801, though by memory, I was quite sure crossover settings worked when it's done in the 2Ch stereo playback menu that is not available in the lower series.

Note that the poster is talking about a Stereo (2.0) source. When played in Direct mode, only the FR and FL channels will be active as no crossover will be applied and there is naturally no LFE channel in the source.

 

[Robert-Hifi]

thank you @dlaloum for all your comments.

you gave me a good idea to test everything in stereo.
I have a NAD Purifi on my Hifi system, so I'm going to do a test protocol in stereo to see if, as you say, I can hear the difference.

- Denon 4800 alone
- Denon 4800 + Onkyo 5501
- Denon 4800 + NAD C298

my 48 year old ears might not hear the difference
I'm going to do this next week...

I'm really curious to your findings, especially if you hear any difference in the bass (authority and tightness of the bass).

 

[peng]

Note that the poster is talking about a Stereo (2.0) source. When played in Direct mode, only the FR and FL channels will be active as no crossover will be applied and there is naturally no LFE channel in the source.

No issue with the crossover part, I found, and stated the same he did.. My point was about the subwoofer out, he stated: "In direct and pure direct mode: with a stereo signal (2.0 or analog) as input, my subwoofer gets no signal" So, he was talking about the "LFE" channel info, that obviously would not be there for a 2.0 source, but my question for him was, did he try LFE+M? I am not sure about the X2600H, but it is quite possible that if he select LFE+M, he could get a signal from the subwoofer pre outs. The "M" is needed, precisely because there is no LFE signal when listening the 2.0 source.

I realized I forgot to delete the paragraph that I didn't mean to include in my "quotes", done now, thanks for your post that alerted me.

 

[peng]

I'm really curious to your findings, especially if you hear any difference in the bass (authority and tightness of the bass).

I believe lots of people don't mind a lot of bass, including somewhat boom ones, but I don't and obviously you don't either. In my experience, Audyssey does work well killing boomy bass effects, but probably over doing it. That's without considering the effects of DEQ. To really clean up the bass response, imo it is best to use REW and invest in the Umik-1 mic.

Here's an example of where boomy bass could be felt with Audyssey off, between around 53-60 Hz and 70-130 Hz:

 

[Robert-Hifi]

I believe lots of people don't mind a lot of bass, including somewhat boom ones, but I don't and obviously you don't either. In my experience, Audyssey does work well killing boomy bass effects, but probably over doing it. That's without considering the effects of DEQ. To really clean up the bass response, imo it is best to use REW and invest in the Umik-1 mic.

Here's an example of where boomy bass could be felt with Audyssey off, between around 53-60 Hz and 70-130 Hz:

View attachment 399125

I believe we talked about this before when I asked if a low damping factor could be the issue.
I mentioned the difference in bass authority and tightness between my Onkyo TX-NR906 and Denon AVC-X4800H.
Taking the Onkyo as reference and using REW with the UMIK-1 mic I tried to mimic the curve/frequency response in the bass as best as I could with the Audyssey MultEQ Editor App on a iPad.

 

[peng]

I believe we talked about this before when I asked if a low damping factor could be the issue.
I mentioned the difference in bass authority and tightness between my Onkyo TX-NR906 and Denon AVC-X4800H.
Taking the Onkyo as reference and using REW with the UMIK-1 mic I tried to mimic the curve/frequency response in the bass as best as I could with the Audyssey MultEQ Editor App on a iPad. could be if DF is in fact toi low.

I don't know, maybe we did. People talked about DF a lot on forums. If too low, it could be a factor. How low is too low, is something I am not going to argue with anyone any more. There are plenty of facts and figures out there already, unfortunately some do get mixed with unreliable claims from misconceptions.

 

[peng]

I believe we talked about this before when I asked if a low damping factor could be the issue.
I mentioned the difference in bass authority and tightness between my Onkyo TX-NR906 and Denon AVC-X4800H.
Taking the Onkyo as reference and using REW with the UMIK-1 mic I tried to mimic the curve/frequency response in the bass as best as I could with the Audyssey MultEQ Editor App on a iPad.

If you work on smoothing the 40-300 Hz range and reducing the apparent bump/room gain you may get better bass (in terms of the "boomy" thing). The graphs look not too bad but I noticed they are smoothed to 1/3 octave, so they may reveal much higher peaks, though hard to know without seeing the unsmoothed, or 1/24. That's regardless of DF, that typically won't be very high for AVR amps though likely "low enough" (audibly speaking, but for sure some die hard high DF believers will disagree and again I won't bother arguing with them).

 

[Robert-Hifi]

If you work on smoothing the 40-300 Hz range and reducing the apparent bump/room gain you may get better bass (in terms of the "boomy" thing). The graphs look not too bad but I noticed they are smoothed to 1/3 octave, so they may reveal much higher peaks, though hard to know without seeing the unsmoothed, or 1/24. That's regardless of DF, that typically won't be very high for AVR amps though likely "low enough" (audibly speaking, but for sure some die hard high DF believers will disagree and again I won't bother arguing with them).

Thanks for the advice. I've attached the unsmoothed graphs for you to have a look at.

 

[peng]

Thanks for the advice. I've attached the unsmoothed graphs for you to have a look at.

Thank you for that. People seem to like using oca's tool:

A1 Evo - OCA 2024

I have never tried that but I have had great results using the Editor app with Ratbuddyssey, that is also a freeware.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/announcing-ratbuddyssey-a-tool-for-tweaking-audyssey-multeq-app-files.3006886/

I can see that your X4800H is doing a reasonably job, vs the NR906. Not sure if the 906 have the same Audyssey version and whether everything (speakers, placements etc.).
If you use Ratbuddssey with the app, for sure you can minimize that suck out quite a bit. It could be time assuming, say a few hours.. Or if you post the REW graph, preferrable one with Audyssey disabled, along with the Editor's Ady file, I could do one trial edited target curve for you.

The thing is, if you like the ways the system sounds to you now, that would be great and you can just leave it alone. If you want to have smoother looking REW graphs, then it would hurt to spend a few hours on improving things.

 

[dlaloum]

Thank you for that. People seem to like using oca's tool:

A1 Evo - OCA 2024

I have never tried that but I have had great results using the Editor app with Ratbuddyssey, that is also a freeware.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/announcing-ratbuddyssey-a-tool-for-tweaking-audyssey-multeq-app-files.3006886/

I can see that your X4800H is doing a reasonably job, vs the NR906. Not sure if the 906 have the same Audyssey version and whether everything (speakers, placements etc.).
If you use Ratbuddssey with the app, for sure you can minimize that suck out quite a bit. It could be time assuming, say a few hours.. Or if you post the REW graph, preferrable one with Audyssey disabled, along with the Editor's Ady file, I could do one trial edited target curve for you.

The thing is, if you like the ways the system sounds to you now, that would be great and you can just leave it alone. If you want to have smoother looking REW graphs, then it would hurt to spend a few hours on improving things.

In theory both the NR906 and the SR876 (I owned the latter) - had Audyssey XT32... as do the Denon's - so they should be the same.

However, there was no way of disabling MRC on these... or of adjusting the target curve... you got the Audyssey target and that was that.

 

[delamelon]

comparison on my 4800 versus Purifi & Onkyo (class A/B) done (with my old ears):

well, you should know that I did the tests in "pure" stereo because I could change more quickly between amps.
I did this on my two Cinema THX front LCRs from Magnat:

listening in stereo with the Onkyo is already good but when you're used to listening to your system with all the speakers (and subs) it's really poor to go to stereo.
you should know that I have two systems: one stereo in my signature and the other in a dedicated room with the Magnat Cinema THX kit, 2 SVS SB3000 and the Denon/Onkyo pair in a semi-treated room.

I switch to stereo listening on the Denon only... it's flattering but I have an impression of narrowing with less bass.

now I'm switching to NAD Purifi.. it's magic! everything better: details, spacialization, bass...

I come back to the Onkyo, and the guy is doing pretty well. better than the Denon alone. I would say 90% of what I had with the Purifi.

now the problem is the volume differences, the visual of the amps, all these placebo effects and above all: all this without measurements (especially on this site).

as @dlaloum said I think I'll just move to the side with the Purifi. I'm really thinking about switching everything to Purifi but the price of a combo of 9 Purifi amps

thanks for your advices in any case

 

[peng]

comparison on my 4800 versus Purifi & Onkyo (class A/B) done (with my old ears):

well, you should know that I did the tests in "pure" stereo because I could change more quickly between amps.
I did this on my two Cinema THX front LCRs from Magnat:

listening in stereo with the Onkyo is already good but when you're used to listening to your system with all the speakers (and subs) it's really poor to go to stereo.
you should know that I have two systems: one stereo in my signature and the other in a dedicated room with the Magnat Cinema THX kit, 2 SVS SB3000 and the Denon/Onkyo pair in a semi-treated room.

I switch to stereo listening on the Denon only... it's flattering but I have an impression of narrowing with less bass.

now I'm switching to NAD Purifi.. it's magic! everything better: details, spacialization, bass...

I come back to the Onkyo, and the guy is doing pretty well. better than the Denon alone. I would say 90% of what I had with the Purifi.

now the problem is the volume differences, the visual of the amps, all these placebo effects and above all: all this without measurements (especially on this site).

as @dlaloum said I think I'll just move to the side with the Purifi. I'm really thinking about switching everything to Purifi but the price of a combo of 9 Purifi amps

thanks for your advices in any case

No advices as such, but would love to see you compare them objectively, by measuring with REW and mic. I have done so many times and between all my amps, including one Purifi, one Hypex, AVRs etc., in pure direct mode, REW and Umik-1 mic could not tell a difference. As to my ears, hard to say, I can't be sure even after carefully matching level/volume, that my head/ears were in the exact positions lol..... So, I am convince, as you alluded to, subtle audible differences are always possible, with the influences of all sorts including the visible differences and Placebo effects, but I won't argue with anyone who insist on hearing "real" differences.

Two things are not debatable though, frequency response characteristics, and distortions. If one amp is pushed to near it's clipping point, distortions may be audible and they could make it sound better, or worse, depending on other factors.

 

[pogo]

A UMIK-1 is less suitable for this purpose. I would also use DeltaWave.

 

[peng]

A UMIK-1 is less suitable for this purpose. I would also use DeltaWave.

What purpose? Without being specific, you might be right, but may be not...