Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

[John Galt]

Since someone just brought this up, I am not in olive branch business. The review is already quite helpful to manufacturers, providing data and measurements that they probably did not have. Post review, I am more than willing to help explain things, run more tests, review other samples, etc. as I have done countless times. But that doesn't mean I write the review to cater to the needs of the manufacturer. Or make them feel good despite poor performance of the device otherwise.

The review itself is as a service to the membership. I test what they send to me and report it for others to also read. My obligation is to the membership and owner of the device. It is not to manufacturers.

People who get loaners as a way of getting all test products are in a different boat and constraints. They are not as free as I can be with my testing and language I use. If people don't like what I do, there are plenty of other reviewers who cater to manufacturers in the way you suggest.

Spot on @amirm That guy was so obnoxious on various levels that he’s literally the only person I’ve had to block on two separate forums.

Thank you for not being in the olive branch business and providing all of us the best measurements possible.

 

[Thomas savage]

Since someone just brought this up, I am not in olive branch business. The review is already quite helpful to manufacturers, providing data and measurements that they probably did not have. Post review, I am more than willing to help explain things, run more tests, review other samples, etc. as I have done countless times. But that doesn't mean I write the review to cater to the needs of the manufacturer. Or make them feel good despite poor performance of the device otherwise.

The review itself is as a service to the membership. I test what they send to me and report it for others to also read. My obligation is to the membership and owner of the device. It is not to manufacturers.

People who get loaners as a way of getting all test products are in a different boat and constraints. They are not as free as I can be with my testing and language I use. If people don't like what I do, there are plenty of other reviewers who cater to manufacturers in the way you suggest.

 

[Sanctum OF Bass]

I have just joined the site after purchasing my new Denon X4700 and I made an “unboxing video with a nice twist. My first you tube video I have ever made so don’t be too hard on me. I hope the audio quality will be firmware patched cause I’m just going to stick with the Denon as I already paid for it so her it is everyone.

 

[peng]

is there clear evidence from pictures & information provided by Denon that analogs input are not digitized in Direct or Pure Direct mode?

I would say yes because:

1) I have written response from both Denon and Marantz customer support that in direct and pure direct mode the internal DAC is bypassed, letting the source to do the processing.
2) Denon's website's FAQ has said something similar to 2) above.
3) The block diagrams of the 2016 through 2018 models show the bypass connections via switches, so the hardware is there, and wired to do it.
4) Amir measurements show bandwidth extended to 100 kHz, if it had gone through the ADC/DAC, BW would have been limited to 40 KHz.

So 1) through 3) could be what you referred to as pictures & information. 4) is sort of collaborating evidence.

 

[Sanctum OF Bass]

Nichicon guts 4700 pictured

 

[amirm]

Nichicon guts 4700 pictured
View attachment 70424

Thanks for posting these. I see TI PCM5100A as the DAC chip.

I don't know if they are used for all the channels or just the non-main ones. They are pretty low spec DACs from TI:

Change the sign from negative to positive in the last column and you get SINAD. They opted for the lowest grade of this DAC chip getting it only 90 dB SINAD. Here is the actual graph akin to THD+N vs level that I show:

So it can get a bit better than 90 dB which is what I showed.

This very much verifies my measurements to be correct as I got 92 dB with Toslink input.

With CD having a dynamic range of 96 dB, clearly even in ideal case this AVR can't resolve CD let alone higher resolution.

The DAC chip is stereo so gives you two channels and it costs just $1 in thousand piece quantity. In other words, 50 cents per channel was invested to produce sound out of this AVR.

The above would be fine if we didn't have flowery words about how great its audio subsystem is. But we do have such words:

Earlier we talked about reference levels of 105 dB, etc. You can't get to those numbers with 16 bits which caps out at 96 dB.

We need an honest, 18 bits at least to sell products like this with a straight face. 15 bits and lower just doesn't do it.

Now, if we had a $300 AVR, that would be fine. But when charging over $1000 let's deliver the bits to people please.

 

[fieldcar]

The wool has been lifted. I refuse to buy a new reciever until the industry fixes itself. I'm still on an ancient Yamaha htr5890.

 

[tparm]

Thanks for posting these. I see TI PCM5100A as the DAC chip.
View attachment 70448
I don't know if they are used for all the channels or just the non-main ones. They are pretty low spec DACs from TI:

View attachment 70445

Change the sign from negative to positive in the last column and you get SINAD. They opted for the lowest grade of this DAC chip getting it only 90 dB SINAD. Here is the actual graph akin to THD+N vs level that I show:

View attachment 70446

So it can get a bit better than 90 dB which is what I showed.

This very much verifies my measurements to be correct as I got 92 dB with Toslink input.

With CD having a dynamic range of 96 dB, clearly even in ideal case this AVR can't resolve CD let alone higher resolution.

The DAC chip is stereo so gives you two channels and it costs just $1 in thousand piece quantity. In other words, 50 cents per channel was invested to produce sound out of this AVR.

The above would be fine if we didn't have flowery words about how great its audio subsystem is. But we do have such words:

View attachment 70447

Earlier we talked about reference levels of 105 dB, etc. You can't get to those numbers with 16 bits which caps out at 96 dB.

We need an honest, 18 bits at least to sell products like this with a straight face. 15 bits and lower just doesn't do it.

Now, if we had a $300 AVR, that would be fine. But when charging over $1000 let's deliver the bits to people please.

So where are the AKM chip sets? They’ve been using AKM DACs for years, maybe the 4458s?

 

[valerianf]

Amir, I guess that there is an error with figure 3 that shows the curve of a PCM5101 when the AVR has only a PCM5100 (less performant).

My feeling is that the sound quality of modern AVR is not better than the one of the 10 years ago models.
Only functionalities and gadget have evolved (i.e. hdmi 2.1).
In my case a cheap AVR will do the job, may be a hdmi2.0b+earc at black friday.

 

[amirm]

So where are the AKM chip sets? They’ve been using AKM DACs for years, maybe the 4458s?

I don't know. I didn't take the pictures.

Maybe they are using AKM for fronts. Anyone has a reference and which part number it is?

For now, the rest of the channels are as I documented.

 

[Chromatischism]

Okay, from a practical standpoint - say I listen to music at 75-85 dB. I can't really get 96 dB of dynamic range from my system, let alone the 92 dB that the DAC is capable of, right?

And the noise floor of my room is 40-50 dB, resulting in ~35-45 dB of usable range. I'm not an engineer, so there's probably something I don't know.

 

[ririt]

I would say yes because:

1) I have written response from both Denon and Marantz customer support that in direct and pure direct mode the internal DAC is bypassed, letting the source to do the processing.
2) Denon's website's FAQ has said something similar to 2) above.
3) The block diagrams of the 2016 through 2018 models show the bypass connections via switches, so the hardware is there, and wired to do it.
4) Amir measurements show bandwidth extended to 100 kHz, if it had gone through the ADC/DAC, BW would have been limited to 40 KHz.

So 1) through 3) could be what you referred to as pictures & information. 4) is sort of collaborating evidence.

Goood to know. Does that mean that feeding this AVR with a good DAC through analog input in pure/direct mode will allow to get an improved sound quality?

 

[amirm]

Okay, from a practical standpoint - say I listen to music at 75-85 dB. I can't really get 96 dB of dynamic range from my system, let alone the 92 dB that the DAC is capable of, right?

And the noise floor of my room is 40-50 dB, resulting in ~35-45 dB of usable range. I'm not an engineer, so there's probably something I don't know.

There is . See: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dynamic-range-how-quiet-is-quiet.14/

But yes, if you read by candle light, you won't see the stains on your cloths.

 

[Chromatischism]

Goood to know. Does that mean that feeding this AVR with a good DAC through analog input in pure/direct mode will allow to get an improved sound quality?

Depends. If I have to disable Audyssey and bass management, it's not an improvement.

 

[North_Sky]

The three BB DACs are stereo DACs for 6 channels total (20 pins each DAC).
ThE BB PCM5100A is a 32-bit/384 kHz DAC.
There must be an AKM AK4458VN DAC also (8-channel DAC on a single chip, 48 pins).
It's a 32-bit/768 kHz PCM and 11.2 MHz DSD DAC.

7.2.4 = 13 channels (14 DACs are avail...one extra). Or 16? ...AK4458VN x2

This receiver is too new, and best is for Denon to tell how they use the DACs in the 4700.
My only guess is for the 7.1 main channels (floor) the AKM DAC is used (8-ch).
The 3 BB DACs for the height channels? No, they are for the extra zones (2 and 3) plus the Network. There is also another chip (DAC?) in the same area of those BB DACs, with 16 pins (headphone?).

I sure am confused (just a little) to see those Burr Brown (not anymore confused, as corrected above). I would have thought that two AKM AK4458VN DACs were used.

Denon would be best to ask about the DACs implementation exactly.
Just looking inside the receiver is not enough, you also need the schematics.
...Someone who can read them, an Audio pro...an audio circuit designer.

* Your short video was fun Sanctum OF Bass (with your bike).
P.S. The two main capacitors (nichicon) we can't see their value (µF ... microfarad) and neither their voltage value.
My guess: 15,000 µF (or 18,000 µF) 71 V ... or ...

Edit: Few corrections.

 

[amirm]

Goood to know. Does that mean that feeding this AVR with a good DAC through analog input in pure/direct mode will allow to get an improved sound quality?

The pre-amp only improves 2 dB with analog in versus Toslink so I say it is not worth the hassle.

 

[amirm]

Nichicon guts 4700 pictured

While you are in there, can you see if you can find any parts with AKM on it? Their logo/marking would be something like this:

Thanks!

 

[GXAlan]

Huh. The DACs could explain everything.

There is also this interview, which tries to talk about the Vivid and Spacious design philosophy of contemporary Denon gear
https://translate.googleusercontent...x.html&usg=ALkJrhhUQIlvQ5RrZd9a_KARlNJ07WUC3g

“This is just a general example, but the amount of bass and the attack are emphasized, and the high frequencies are slightly rounded. At times, I think that there are cases where the focus is too much on the elimination of noise, and fine nuances are lost.”

Whether that statement is preferred or true is not the question. It’s that this is the statement from the head engineer and the goal is not focused strictly on measured performance.

There are interviews with the previous designer on older amps.
https://translate.googleusercontent...x.html&usg=ALkJrhj6DLrR7_IxAm8eSikf3X8ZD_DeKw
Is there a difference in the sound quality direction?


Arai: In the sense that it is the base "Denon sound", that is, a stable Pyramid-like Denon sound with a solid mid and low range, we have a solid inheritance. However, due to the change in Denon's sound manager, the sound has gradually changed.


Do you dare to choose parts with quirks?

Arai: It's the same as curry (laughs). Sounds are created by combining various scents and spices.This time, I'm using a new condenser in terms of sound seasoning, because it was judged by the Sound Manager that the sound of new music cannot be played unless a new taste is added.

What is interesting is the eclectic mix of music
https://translate.googleusercontent...x.html&usg=ALkJrhianKC9dKOC3Nfua6ppgEOFdlP-HQ

https://translate.googleusercontent...x.html&usg=ALkJrhhZy0NFAK5cccqZOGeKECe6TlUi5Q

How does a condenser affect sound quality? That was one of the tweaks the 100TH anniversary receiver and likely a tweak to the 110th anniversary receiver too.

 

[GXAlan]

Thanks for posting these. I see TI PCM5100A as the DAC chip.

I don't know if they are used for all the channels or just the non-main ones. .

Previous Denon’s used them for Zone 2. Is it possible that we have the same problem as the power amps leaking into the DAC output and we need a Zone 2 disconnect? These new generation receivers can do more stuff with HDMI going to Zone 2.

 

[amirm]

How does a condenser affect sound quality?

It doesn't. It is classic audiophile folklore.