Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

[peng]

I agree with your theory and I would be entirely convinced if only you could provide a link to a DBT which proved that (say) a Behringer A800 or Denon 3700 sounds exactly the same as Rotel Michi X5 or Luxman L509X, for example. Now that would blow audiophile hifi out of the water!

I think that would be difficult to set up and would also be dependent of many things such as contents, gain structure when comparing gear from the extreme end of the spectrum, such as the A800 and the L509X so they could sound very similar to very different depending on the setup and the contents used.

It may be much easier to do one (even just SBT) to validate the claims of the audible difference between the Denon 3700 and the Marantz SR8015 driving a Purif amp in pure direct mode using analog inputs, using a pair of KEF R500 (just an example) sitting distance 8 ft, volume at -15.

SBT is much easier to do at home. I would pay an entrance fee of up to $50 to participate just to see the results.

 

[sanbol]

I have a 4700 (still boxed)

Going to use a 7-channel external amplifier for my main 7 speakers , and only power my 4 ceiling Atmos speakers with the Denon

Just wondering how much watts will it exactly provide for 4 channels driven @8 ohms per channel? also can I turn off amplification for the 7 channels that will be powered externally?

Thanks

 

[peng]

I have a 4700 (still boxed)

Going to use a 7-channel external amplifier for my main 7 speakers , and only power my 4 ceiling Atmos speakers with the Denon

Just wondering how much watts will it exactly provide for 4 channels driven @8 ohms per channel? also can I turn off amplification for the 7 channels that will be powered externally?

Thanks

To your first questions, it is not practically possible to say how many watts "exactly" because if depends on other things but the following may give you some idea:

The X4700H should do a little better so may be 110 W, keep in mind 100 W versus 200 W would result in only 3 dB difference in SPL, to perceive even twice as loud you need a lot more than a 3 dB difference, could be more like 6 to 10 dB (10 dB more power is 10 times!).

Your second question:

The AVR-X4700H has a preamp mode that would disconnect the preamps to the power amps, but if you do that you won't be able to use any of the internal amps. If you don't use preamp mode, you can still disconnect the front left and front right channel preamp outputs to the corresponding power amp inputs. Steve Dallas posted some screenshots that may help you navigate:

(4) Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated) | Page 66 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Also keep in mind of the following practical aspects:

- Depending on your speakers sensitivity, distance, listening habit and the gain of your power amp, you may not need to be concerned about performance degrade without disconnecting the AVR's power amps, because the preamps may never have to output more than 1.5 V anyway.

- Even at 2 V preamp output, the overall distortions at the speaker output would likely be still below the threshold of audibility.

- Your power need may be more relevant than how many much the AVR can output with 4 or more channels driven at the same time.

- It would be rare for movie contents to drive 4 surround channels to the same maximum level at the same time. If it does, it would be for a very short duration, and for very short duration the AVR can output a lot more than its rated 120 W/8 ohms. Setting crossover to 80 Hz would also help a little.

 

[sanbol]

@peng thanks for the reply really appreciate it, I kind of got lost regarding the pre-amp mode as it has been at least 10 years since I have last used a receiver, I usually go for processors.

But if I am not wrong, once I connect my main 7 speakers to an external amp (using rca cables) they will be automatically set to that, meaning the remaining 4 ceiling speakers which I am going to use for Atmos will get the full power for 4 channels driven from my Denon correct?

 

[peng]

@peng thanks for the reply really appreciate it, I kind of got lost regarding the pre-amp mode as it has been at least 10 years since I have last used a receiver, I usually go for processors.

But if I am not wrong, once I connect my main 7 speakers to an external amp (using rca cables) they will be automatically set to that, meaning the remaining 4 ceiling speakers which I am going to use for Atmos will get the full power for 4 channels driven from my Denon correct?

No, that is not the case. You have to manually set it to preamp mode. Also, as I mentioned, if you use preamp mode, all of the internal power amps will be disconnected from the pre outs so you won't be able to power the ceiling speakers with the Denon.

To be able to use the internal amps, you cannot set the Denon to preamp mode, but you can still have it disconnect the front left and front right channel internal amps. Take a look of the post in the link I provided and you will understand how that can be done.

So if you want to have the benefits of the preamp mode, you need an external amp to power all 11 channels. In many cases you don't need to use preamp mode. I have 11 channels of external amps and I don't use preamp mode (edit: I have no choice because my X4400H doesn't have that feature), but I do assign the front left and right to the pre out so that those two internal amps are disconnected from the pre out, allowing them to perform at their best at higher output levels. I do that not because I have to, just because I can.

 

[bigguyca]

No, that is not the case. You have to manually set it to preamp mode. Also, as I mentioned, if you use preamp mode, all of the internal power amps will be disconnected from the pre outs so you won't be able to power the ceiling speakers with the Denon.

To be able to use the internal amps, you cannot set the Denon to preamp mode, but you can still have it disconnect the front left and front right channel internal amps. Take a look of the post in the link I provided and you will understand how that can be done.

So if you want to have the benefits of the preamp mode, you need an external amp to power all 11 channels. In many cases you don't need to use preamp mode. I have 11 channels of external amps and I don't use preamp mode, but I do assign the front left and right to the pre out so that those two internal amps are disconnected from the pre out, allowing them to perform at their best at higher output levels. I do that not because I have to, just because I can.

Preamp only mode can reduce the temperature of the AVR

Certainly it's your equipment and this decision not to use preamp only mode when no internal power amplifiers are in use is your choice.

It should be noted for members that the electric power consumption of the AVR, and thus the associated heat output from the AVR, will be greater if preamp only mode is not used. "High" external case temperatures for Denon/Marantz AVR's are a common complaint. Thermal IR visual measurements here on ASR for some Denon AVR's showed these temperatures.

In preamp only mode the AVR will also also run with ECO Mode = ON. My measurements of an X6700H showed a reduction in power drawn at idle for the X6700H of a bit over 50% and a significant reduction in case temperature above the internal power amplifier heat sinks, which is the hottest area in the AVR. Subjectively the unit felt much cooler.

The reduction in power use is due to reduced internal power amplifier rail voltage when using ECO Mode = ON.

Also note, when using ECO Mode = ON, the maximum clean output from the preamp outputs, as expected, is much lower at a bit over .5V. This means that concurrent used of ECO Mode = ON and the preamp outputs, isn't a great option. Even the preamp output at less than .5V output with ECO Mode = ON has a bit more THD than with ECO Mode = OFF.

 

[amper42]

Preamp only mode can reduce the temperature of the AVR

It should be noted for members that the electric power consumption of the AVR, and thus the associated heat output from the AVR, will be greater if preamp only mode is not used. "High" external case temperatures for Denon/Marantz AVR's are a common complaint. Thermal IR visual measurements here on ASR for some Denon AVR's showed these temperatures.

Denon 4700 Energy "Full Preamp Mode vs Using Any Internal Amps"
I measured the energy consumption of the Denon 4700 with a Kill-o-watt meter.

1. Denon 4700 Full Pre-amp Mode = 46W (No matter what volume level or playback mode selected)
2. Denon 4700 Front Pre-out only (internal amps on) = 200W (Volume 65 with Auro-3D) In this mode Stereo offers almost no energy savings (185W) versus running in 7.2.4.
3. Purifi P452 amp = 16W at 75dB
4. Denon CD player = 12W

Running the Denon 4700 in Full Pre-out mode offers energy savings that can be used for external amps.

Tested Boss2 plus Purifi P452 amp in stereo at 76dB = 5W Boss2 plus 16W Purifi powering F328Be = 21W total.
That's amazingly different than the Denon 4700 in stereo with internal amps at 165W.

 

[peng]

Preamp only mode can reduce the temperature of the AVR

Certainly it's your equipment and this decision not to use preamp only mode when no internal power amplifiers are in use is your choice.

It is not my choice. My AVR does not have preamp mode so I have no choice. I meant to say that but somehow I said the wrong thing (edited now) so thank you for your post. So yes, if I had an AVR-X4700H I would definitely use preamp mode.

My point to sanbol is that preamp mode is not always required if the concern is distortions level, because that would depend on other factors, but of course you are right about the other benefits other than pre out distortion levels.

 

[peng]

Denon 4700 Energy "Full Preamp Mode vs Using Any Internal Amps"
I measured the energy consumption of the Denon 4700 with a Kill-o-watt meter.

1. Denon 4700 Full Pre-amp Mode = 46W (No matter what volume level or playback mode selected)
2. Denon 4700 Front Pre-out only (internal amps on) = 200W (Volume 65 with Auro-3D) In this mode Stereo offers almost no energy savings (185W) versus running in 7.2.4.
3. Purifi P452 amp = 16W at 75dB
4. Denon CD player = 12W

View attachment 154349

Running the Denon 4700 in Full Pre-out mode offers energy savings that can be used for external amps.

Which movie?

 

[Adrgha]

It must just be the Spotify Connect app on the receiver itself. It's a very noticeable quality reduction with distortion on the higher frequencies.
I made sure the quality setting on Spotify on my phone was set to the highest (even though I read the receiver automatically uses the highest).

If you compare yourself, you can hear it at the end of each extended word starting at 0:33 on this track:

Spotify Connect: End of each lines sounds very harsh and distorted
Spotify on HTPC over HDMI: No distortion, not harsh

Spotify from my phone over Bluetooth is a little bit better than Connect, but there's still some distortion.

I recently got one of these AVR's and I'm running into the same issue as you with Spotify.

Through HEOS/Spotify connect I get terrible distortion, especially on certain songs. The same songs played through Chromecast on my Shield sound just fine.

I also noticed that this only seems to happen when Audyssey is enabled. At least it gets worse. Have you tried disabling it?

To me this seems like an annoying software bug. Big shame, because I like how Spotify connect works with this AVR otherwise. I'm gonna register with Tidal and see if the same happens with that.

 

[hutt132]

I recently got one of these AVR's and I'm running into the same issue as you with Spotify.

Through HEOS/Spotify connect I get terrible distortion, especially on certain songs. The same songs played through Chromecast on my Shield sound just fine.

I also noticed that this only seems to happen when Audyssey is enabled. At least it gets worse. Have you tried disabling it?

To me this seems like an annoying software bug. Big shame, because I like how Spotify connect works with this AVR otherwise. I'm gonna register with Tidal and see if the same happens with that.

I'm glad someone else noticed this. It's very annoying since it's so convenient to use Spotify Connect, but it's so distorted. Audyssey is disabled.

 

[Adrgha]

I'm glad someone else noticed this. It's very annoying since it's so convenient to use Spotify Connect, but it's so distorted. Audyssey is disabled.

Right. I might just be that Audyssey is doing something with the curve that's boosting the audible distortion. I'm currently just using some cheap placeholder speakers while I wait for my custom order, so I haven't even bothered to look at the graphs.

I've been googling this extensively the last few days and your post is the only mention I could find about this issue, and I find that weird. Surely quite a few people must be using Spotify Connect with this AVR? As you said it's a really convenient feature.

Have you tried any other streaming apps and checked if it only happens with Spotify Connect? As I said I'm gonna sign up to Tidal tonight and test with that.

 

[Bello]

Right. I might just be that Audyssey is doing something with the curve that's boosting the audible distortion. I'm currently just using some cheap placeholder speakers while I wait for my custom order, so I haven't even bothered to look at the graphs.

I've been googling this extensively the last few days and your post is the only mention I could find about this issue, and I find that weird. Surely quite a few people must be using Spotify Connect with this AVR? As you said it's a really convenient feature.

Have you tried any other streaming apps and checked if it only happens with Spotify Connect? As I said I'm gonna sign up to Tidal tonight and test with that.

During my purchase decision, I audio streamed, tested both the 4700H / 6700H. I never encountered distortion issues while running Spotify (Audio quality, very high). Try uninstalling the app reinstall and or use a different phone to test stream your music on the 4700H. The distortion could be happening on either Bluetooth transceiver device.

 

[hutt132]

Right. I might just be that Audyssey is doing something with the curve that's boosting the audible distortion. I'm currently just using some cheap placeholder speakers while I wait for my custom order, so I haven't even bothered to look at the graphs.

I've been googling this extensively the last few days and your post is the only mention I could find about this issue, and I find that weird. Surely quite a few people must be using Spotify Connect with this AVR? As you said it's a really convenient feature.

Have you tried any other streaming apps and checked if it only happens with Spotify Connect? As I said I'm gonna sign up to Tidal tonight and test with that.

I haven't tried other streaming apps, but I did try bluetooth, which doesn't distort as much but it's still distorting.

During my purchase decision, I audio streamed, tested both the 4700H / 6700H. I never encountered distortion issues while running Spotify (Audio quality, very high). Try uninstalling the app reinstall and or use a different phone to test stream your music on the 4700H. The distortion could be happening on either Bluetooth transceiver device.

Spotify Connect does not use bluetooth.

 

[Adrgha]

Just tested with Tidal HiFi through HEOS, and the same crap happens. Lots of distortion, sounds terrible.

I'm starting to think my unit is faulty.

 

[hutt132]

Just tested with Tidal HiFi through HEOS, and the same crap happens. Lots of distortion, sounds terrible.

I'm starting to think my unit is faulty.

I had the digital board replaced twice on my unit. Didn't make a difference.
HEOS might just be poorly integrated.

 

[Adrgha]

I had the digital board replaced twice on my unit. Didn't make a difference.
HEOS might just be poorly integrated.

Unbelievable. They replaced it twice under warranty because of this issue?

I still think more people would notice if HEOS was that poorly integrated. I mean, you don't exactly have to be an audiophile to hear the distortion. Plus, I would guess that quite a lot of people use the Spotify Connect feature of this AVR?

 

[John24]

I feel a bit confused now. So I got Denon X4700H and will be picking up an Emotiva BasX A-5175 5 Channel Power Amplifier (https://emotiva.com/products/a-5175) tomorrow.
My plan was to power the front Left Center Right speakers as well as the front Height Left and front Height Right, so essentially the front 5 speakers as they are furthest from MLP.

Now reading about the pre-outs, it seems that only front 3 can have their amps turned off or all of them. So would using a power amp for the front 5 cause me any issues? The emotiva specs say (Input Sensitivity (for rated power; 8 Ohm load): 1.2 V and Gain: 29 dB.) I would be driving 4 Omh speakers

 

[peng]

I feel a bit confused now. So I got Denon X4700H and will be picking up an Emotiva BasX A-5175 5 Channel Power Amplifier (https://emotiva.com/products/a-5175) tomorrow.
My plan was to power the front Left Center Right speakers as well as the front Height Left and front Height Right, so essentially the front 5 speakers as they are furthest from MLP.

Now reading about the pre-outs, it seems that only front 3 can have their amps turned off or all of them. So would using a power amp for the front 5 cause me any issues? The emotiva specs say (Input Sensitivity (for rated power; 8 Ohm load): 1.2 V and Gain: 29 dB.) I would be driving 4 Omh speakers

That Emo amp doesn't have much more output than the AVR amps so you really don't gain much using preamp mode anyway except for energy saving and better reliability because the unit will run cooler in preamp mode.

Without using preamp mode (because you need to use some of the AVR amps), you can still do the following to help the unit run cooler:

- Add an external fan such as the AC infinity https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Coo...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

- Set Eco to auto

Also, if you want the pre outs to perform their best even at voltages > 2V, you can use the amp assign feature to assign the front left and front right to pre out and in that case the AVR FL and FR power amps will be disconnected from the FL and FR pre outs.

 

[John24]

That Emo amp doesn't have much more output than the AVR amps so you really don't gain much using preamp mode anyway except for energy saving and better reliability because the unit will run cooler in preamp mode.

Without using preamp mode (because you need to use some of the AVR amps), you can still do the following to help the unit run cooler:

- Add an external fan such as the AC infinity https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Coo...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

- Set Eco to auto

Also, if you want the pre outs to perform their best even at voltages > 2V, you can use the amp assign feature to assign the front left and front right to pre out and in that case the AVR FL and FR power amps will be disconnected from the FL and FR pre outs.

Ohhh, so just plugging the power amp and running the front 5 channels would not help the receiver at all?