Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

[Deleted member 28640]

It seems like a die hard myth, that if the speaker is hard to drive then a 100 W or less amp cannot get the best out of it. The fact is, may be, may be not, because it depends on the maximum SPL needed from the listening position.

Just a couple examples below to show why it is a may be may be not case. That is, no such thing as I need a big amp because my speaker is hard to drive:

1) Easy to drive speakers and you listen to high spl:

You can have a big Klipsch speaker rated 150 W cont. and 600 W peak, (whatever they meant..), and sensitivity rated 98 dB/2.83V/1m (let's assume they exaggerated, so actual may be just 93 dB/2.83V/1m), but if one listens from only 12 ft, then even an AVR rated 105 WPC can drive such speaker to reference level with just 1 speaker, who listens that loud though? And to listen to 10 dB below reference level (again just 1 speaker) like a lot of people do, there will be a heathy 10 to 13 dB headroom/reserve on hand for unexpected or special moments.

2) So called hard to drive speakers:

Example: A Dynaudio bookshelf, used under the same condition as in 1):

Sensitivity: 86 dB (specs), 84 dB (actual, measured)
Impedance: 4 Ohms
Power handling: 180 W (IEC)

This one will do about 93 dB, that's 12 dB less than the big Klipsch used in 1), so for reference level one will need about 1600 W to get "the best out of it". Unfortunately, the speaker's power handling spec says 180 W so the most powerful amp one should use with it based on good/best practice would probably be about 360 W into 4 Ohms. Still, I can understand why some would consider the little Contour 20 hard to drive based on its impressive IEC power handling of 180 W, but I thought it almost laughable when I saw people claiming their tiny KEF LS50, rated:

"Amplifier requirements: 40–100W. Maximum output: 106dB. " hard to drive!! Also claimed they love a lot of power, need a lot of power to sound good....etc.etc..

How hard can it be if 100 W is required? Just about every Denon, Yamaha, Marantz AVRs can drive, based on measurements.. They can produce more than 106 dB (from 1 meter) without too much distortion anyway!! Owners of the LS50 may say, specs/measurements don't tell everything, well I happen to have a pair and had them used with amps from 7W to 500 W into 4 Ohms, and AVRs as well, and I know the answer (to the question whether they need a lot of power..) is still may be may be not.

I only used the phrase "hard to drive" in my previous post for brevity and for quick communication, I don't normally use the phrase. There are speakers that people say are "hard to drive" then there are actually speakers that are "hard to drive" that require more power and properties that outboard amplification will provide to get the most out of the speakers. I can think of several off the top of my head. I wouldn't place the Dynaudio bookshelves mentioned in the quoted post in the category of "hard to drive", and I certainly wouldn't hesitate putting four of those on a 4700 for surround/Atmos duty.

 

[peng]

I only used the phrase "hard to drive" in my previous post for brevity and for quick communication, I don't normally use the phrase. There are speakers that people say are "hard to drive" then there are actually speakers that are "hard to drive" that require more power and properties that outboard amplification will provide to get the most out of the speakers. I can think of several off the top of my head. I wouldn't place the Dynaudio bookshelves mentioned in the quoted post in the category of "hard to drive", and I certainly wouldn't hesitate putting four of those on a 4700 for surround/Atmos duty.

I was just making a general remark, not related to your post at all (might appear so due to timing). I used the Dynaudio as an example only because I just discussed that one in PM with someone a few days ago, who told me he read about those speakers "need at least double the rated power to really sound their best...". My response was,...it really depends..

Of course you are right about there are actually speakers that can be and should be considered hard to drive. I can name a few too without much thinking. However, for argument sake, even some of those can be powered by a 100 W AVR such as D+M, or Yamaha's and sound good. I mean such as those verified on the ASR test bench, and for someone who sits within say 10 ft and are typically happy with just 750-75dB SPL (say 90 dB peak). For example, I know at least one ASR member is (or at least was) using a 100 W AHB2 with his big Salon2 and seemed content, and he was using a 250 W Halo amp before. But again, I agree with you, there are obviously speakers that are "actually hard to drive".

 

[rccarguy]

It seems like a die hard myth, that if the speaker is hard to drive then a 100 W or less amp cannot get the best out of it. The fact is, may be, may be not, because it depends on the maximum SPL needed from the listening position.

Just a couple examples below to show why it is a may be may be not case. That is, no such thing as I need a big amp because my speaker is hard to drive:

1) Easy to drive speakers and you listen to high spl:

You can have a big Klipsch speaker rated 150 W cont. and 600 W peak, (whatever they meant..), and sensitivity rated 98 dB/2.83V/1m (let's assume they exaggerated, so actual may be just 93 dB/2.83V/1m), but if one listens from only 12 ft, then even an AVR rated 105 WPC can drive such speaker to reference level with just 1 speaker, who listens that loud though? And to listen to 10 dB below reference level (again just 1 speaker) like a lot of people do, there will be a heathy 10 to 13 dB headroom/reserve on hand for unexpected or special moments.

2) So called hard to drive speakers:

Example: A Dynaudio bookshelf, used under the same condition as in 1):

Sensitivity: 86 dB (specs), 84 dB (actual, measured)
Impedance: 4 Ohms
Power handling: 180 W (IEC)

This one will do about 93 dB, that's 12 dB less than the big Klipsch used in 1), so for reference level one will need about 1600 W to get "the best out of it". Unfortunately, the speaker's power handling spec says 180 W so the most powerful amp one should use with it based on good/best practice would probably be about 360 W into 4 Ohms. Still, I can understand why some would consider the little Contour 20 hard to drive based on its impressive IEC power handling of 180 W, but I thought it almost laughable when I saw people claiming their tiny KEF LS50, rated:

"Amplifier requirements: 40–100W. Maximum output: 106dB. " hard to drive!! Also claimed they love a lot of power, need a lot of power to sound good....etc.etc..

How hard can it be if 100 W is required? Just about every Denon, Yamaha, Marantz AVRs can drive, based on measurements.. They can produce more than 106 dB (from 1 meter) without too much distortion anyway!! Owners of the LS50 may say, specs/measurements don't tell everything, well I happen to have a pair and had them used with amps from 7W to 500 W into 4 Ohms, and AVRs as well, and I know the answer (to the question whether they need a lot of power..) is still may be may be not.

I think there is more to it than simply just power. My avr sounded awful driving 4ohm speakers, small room

With dedicated power bass tightened up. Power was about the same but the power amp had huge psu and heftier components

 

[peng]

I think there is more to it than simply just power. My avr sounded awful driving 4ohm speakers, small room

With dedicated power bass tightened up. Power was about the same but the power amp had huge psu and heftier components

That's a sighted comparison right? And did you take measurements to see the actual frequency response? I have done such comparison and my little AVR-X3400H (no longer has) sounded beautiful compared to my two biggest power amps that have "huge" PSR relative to the 24 lbs AVR.

Its just physics, if the psu is good enough for 100 W into 8 ohm it will be good enough for 50 W into 4 ohm, all else being equal. If you avr sounded awful, and if it's not because of "power", then something is causing it. If I experience that, I would troubleshoot it until I find the reason.

To quote Peter Walker, one of the well known amp designer had apparently said the following in an interview:
https://geocities.restorativland.org/ResearchTriangle/Lab/6722/pwint1.txt

"The peripheral effects are what get people into trouble. You can
see why you find these differences in amplifiers. You can always find them. If
people test two amplifiers and say, "These sound different," there's no magic in
it. Spend two days, maybe a whole week in the lab, and you find out exactly why
they're different and you can write the whole thing down in purely practical,
physical terms. This is why these two sound different, and the cause is usually
peripheral effects. It is not really a case of good or bad amplifiers, it's that the
termination impedances are wrong, or something of that sort. "

This, came from someone who actually designed and manufacturer the highly regarded audiophile class Quad amps.

 

[SpiritGeometry]

That's a sighted comparison right? And did you take measurements to see the actual frequency response? I have done such comparison and my little AVR-X3400H (no longer has) sounded beautiful compared to my two biggest power amps that have "huge" PSR relative to the 24 lbs AVR.

Its just physics, if the psu is good enough for 100 W into 8 ohm it will be good enough for 50 W into 4 ohm, all else being equal. If you avr sounded awful, and if it's not because of "power", then something is causing it. If I experience that, I would troubleshoot it until I find the reason.

To quote Peter Walker, one of the well known amp designer had apparently said the following in an interview:
https://geocities.restorativland.org/ResearchTriangle/Lab/6722/pwint1.txt

"The peripheral effects are what get people into trouble. You can
see why you find these differences in amplifiers. You can always find them. If
people test two amplifiers and say, "These sound different," there's no magic in
it. Spend two days, maybe a whole week in the lab, and you find out exactly why
they're different and you can write the whole thing down in purely practical,
physical terms. This is why these two sound different, and the cause is usually
peripheral effects. It is not really a case of good or bad amplifiers, it's that the
termination impedances are wrong, or something of that sort. "

This, came from someone who actually designed and manufacturer the highly regarded audiophile class Quad amps.

Can anyone recommend any learning material on things audio? A lot of the terminilogy being used is beyond my understanding.

 

[Doodski]

Can anyone recommend any learning material on things audio? A lot of the terminilogy being used is beyond my understanding.

Do you want literature regarding principles of electricity, fundamentals of semi-conductor and digital theory or are you looking for a primer on audio gear?

 

[amper42]

Can anyone recommend any learning material on things audio? A lot of the terminilogy being used is beyond my understanding.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/113892136X/
Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms (Audio Engineering Society Presents) 3rd Edition
by Floyd E. Toole (Author)

 

[peng]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/113892136X/
Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms (Audio Engineering Society Presents) 3rd Edition
by Floyd E. Toole (Author)

That's an excellent link, thank you very much.

Chapter 3, Subjective Measurements-Turning Opinion into Fact is a very interesting and enlightening.

 

[SpiritGeometry]

Do you want literature regarding principles of electricity, fundamentals of semi-conductor and digital theory or are you looking for a primer on audio gear?

A primer on Audio Gear...

 

[SpiritGeometry]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/113892136X/
Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms (Audio Engineering Society Presents) 3rd Edition
by Floyd E. Toole (Author)

Thank you so much for this link.

 

[Doodski]

A primer on Audio Gear...

My best suggestion is hang about here at ASR. Observe, absorb and ask questions when you are at a loss for understanding. The graphs in reviews and occasional number crunching can be a bit much sometimes but take things one step at a time and things should come around.

 

[SpiritGeometry]

My best suggestion is hang about here at ASR. Observe, absorb and ask questions when you are at a loss for understanding. The graphs in reviews and occasional number crunching can be a bit much sometimes but take things one step at a time and things should come around.

I appreciate the support

 

[peng]

I appreciate the support

More useful information can be found in the following links:
How We Test: Audio | Sound & Vision (soundandvision.com)
HT Measurements Explained: Absolute Power - Power Amplifiers Page 2 | Sound & Vision (soundandvision.com)
Guide: Understanding audio specifications and hardware | TechPowerUp Forums
The "Big Six" Audio Measurements - Part I - Audio Precision (ap.com)
The “Big Six” Audio Measurements – Part II - Audio Precision (ap.com)
Understanding Audio Measurements | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Article: Understanding Digital Audio Measurements | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Audioholics Amplifier Measurement Standard | Audioholics

 

[kevin1969]

So I'm a bit confused. I've been reading that you cannot use the Denon 4700 internal amps at the same time as the pre-outs.

I have this working just fine. Front is driven by external amp on pre-outs and Zone 2 still operates normally.

 

[dwalme]

Pre-amp outputs are always live as you experienced.

 

[Kps0580]

I appoligize if this has been answered already and for my ignorance. I am still learning a lot about HT setups. I have the Denon X4700 and want to add external amplification for my 7.1 setup. As I look at mid-range priced amps like that Monolith ones they have an input sensitivity of 1.6V or higher. In the review it mentions that an external amp needs to have a sensitity of 1.4 or lower. So if I am understanding this correctly if I get a mid-range priced amp I would need to either get one that powers just the front two or all 7 channels. If I only want to use an amplifier for the 5 big speakers I would need to spend the extra money on something like Parasound. Am I right or am I not understanding this correctly? Appreciate any help or advice.

 

[oupee]

1.4V or 1.6V doesn't matter. Do not worry.

 

[JonfromCB]

Just read through this entire thread again. It's clear that the output signal clips at 1.4 volts with any combined use of internal and external amps.

Here is the question I think a lot of people have about the Denon 4700 (and other Denon's as well)
Based on this graph, is it a safe assumption or can it be assumed that with internal amps off the SINAD of the output voltage remains as high or near the curve on this graph with 5 channels connected to an outboard amp? Another way of asking: It appears to me that it's SINAD is 97 @2.3 volts with internal amps off. How would the SINAD of that signal be affected with 5 or 7 channels out? Amir? Others?

 

[bigguyca]

Just read through this entire thread again. It's clear that the output signal clips at 1.4 volts with any combined use of internal and external amps.

Here is the question I think a lot of people have about the Denon 4700 (and other Denon's as well)
Based on this graph, is it a safe assumption or can it be assumed that with (1) internal amps off the SINAD of the output voltage remains as high or near the curve on this graph with 5 channels connected to an outboard amp? Another way of asking: It appears to me that it's SINAD is 97 @2.3 volts with internal amps off. How would the SINAD of that signal be affected with 5 or 7 channels out? Amir? Others?

View attachment 124804

There is no way to turnoff the internal power amplifiers.

 

[JonfromCB]

OK my bad, but I'd bet you know what I mean. Using the 4700 as a preamp/controller only, with 5 or 7 preamp channels out to an outboard amp what would the SINAD be at 2.3 volts?