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Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

bigguyca

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Picture of the inside of the Denon/Marantz Adapter

Provided by Denon/Marantz to solve 4k/120Hz HDMI 2.1 Issue

Adapter - iPad Picture - 4M.jpg
 

Music1969

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I also had a 4308 before I switched to AVPs, two Marantz AVPs later I switched back to AVR, the 4400 that should be very similar to the 4700 in the preamp/DAC signal path. The thing is, I don't recall noticing much difference that I perceived in output levels between any of them, let alone 15 dB!! For such a huge difference, I would have to guess something is wrong. May be the quickest way is to find out is to do a factory reset and see what happens. Hopefully it is just setting related.

Thanks Peng. Are there differences in volume scales between 4308 and 4700? You mention +82.5 but I use the other scale the AVRs support, increasing towards 0dB.

Are you saying that -15dB setting should be perceived the same on 4308 and 4700, with all other things being equal?

I will do the factory reset but I assumed Pure Direct would bypass all internal settings that would could this issue.
By the way, what are you using to play that "quietest CD", and can you described how you connect everything together, from the source player through to the 4700?

This is FLAC rip, using Roon music player, set to Exclusive Mode (bit perfect playback).

Same settings for both AVRs, so source levels are identical

But also my earlier query about boosting the input source level of 4700 AVR - can that can digital clipping in the AVR running in Pure Direct mode ? Or is there internal digital headroom in the DAC to compensate for this?

I would guess that Denon checked there is headroom in the DAC, before allowing users to boost +12dB using that feature ?
 
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peng

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Thanks Peng. Are there differences in volume scales between 4308 and 4700? You mention +82.5 but I use the other scale the AVRs support, increasing towards 0dB.

Are you saying that -15dB setting should be perceived the same on 4308 and 4700, with all other things being equal?

I will do the factory reset but I assumed Pure Direct would bypass all internal settings that would could this issue.


This is FLAC rip, using Roon music player, set to Exclusive Mode (bit perfect playback).

Same settings for both AVRs, so source levels are identical

But also my earlier query about boosting the input source level of 4700 AVR - can that can digital clipping in the AVR running in Pure Direct mode ? Or is there internal digital headroom in the DAC to compensate for this?

I would guess that Denon checked there is headroom in the DAC, before allowing users to boost +12dB using that feature ?

My 4308 is back in the box and stored away so I cannot check the volume scale, but I just checked my records of the post Audyssey level settings and they are in fact within +/- 1 dB for the front three channels, compared with my AV7005, AV8801, and AVR-X4400H so I would have to say "yes" all else being equal, I would have perceived the same "loudness". The manual isn't clear but it seems to indicate the same -80 to +18, and that's what I think it is based on distant memory.

The level settings do affect pure direct mode as well.

The procedures for resetting the Microprocessor should be in the Owner's manuals.

In case you cannot find it:
AVR-4308CI:
1. Turning off the power using <POWER>
2. Press <POWER> while simultaneously pressing <STANDARD> and <DSP SIMILATION>
3. Once the display starts flashing at intervals of about 1 second, release the two buttons.

If in step 3 the display does not flash at intervals of about 1 second, start over from step 1.

AVR-X3700H:
1. Turn off the power using
Power%20Button_UJDCILaapkfwct.png
.
2. Press
Power%20Button_UJDCILaapkfwct.png
while simultaneously pressing TUNER PRESET CH + and TUNER PRESET CH –.

3. Remove your fingers from the two buttons when “Initialized” appears on the display.

There are a lot of work to do after a factory reset, such as running Audyssey/Setup again, so before you do that, you should check all volume and level relating settings, including the source levels that can be adjusted individually for each source.
 

peng

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I would guess that Denon checked there is headroom in the DAC, before allowing users to boost +12dB using that feature ?

I would not make such an assumption. Such features are there for the users to make adjustments as required (or not) to suit different sources that have may different output levels. It is up to the users to use the features wisely.:)
 

MJNOLES1

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I have an X4500 (basically the same as the X4700). With the comment about the highest you can go is 1.4V before clipping

I am currently looking at a B&K amp that it's input sensitivity is exactly 1.4v per the specification, is this cause for concern?
 

Music1969

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Anybody else find lip sync is not good when it is enabled on 4700H?

It works better with it off for me, with various HDMI sources like bluray disc, Apple TV, satellite TV

I know the delays can be manually adjusted but it works better with lip sync disabled

Curious if this is a common finding out there
 

peng

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I have an X4500 (basically the same as the X4700). With the comment about the highest you can go is 1.4V before clipping

I am currently looking at a B&K amp that it's input sensitivity is exactly 1.4v per the specification, is this cause for concern?

That is not correct. The preamp did not clip at 1.4v, it was said that the power amp would start to clip at that point and the distortions of the power amp therefore began to affect (fed back) to the preamp output. You can see from the dash board that even at 2 volts, total distortions plus noise was about 0.016%, still lower than some of the separated prepamp/processors tested, for example the Marantz AV7705 did slightly worse under the same condition (@3.95 V XLR, that is equivalent to 1.975 V when matched with power amps such as Marantz, Yamaha etc., that has -6 dB lower gain when XLR inputs are used.

I don't know how many more times we have to clarify this point. Amir's comments quoted below could indeed easily confuse people who don't read between the lines. The same or similar question has been raised multiple times (I didn't count, just the feeling..:D).

"With the amp turned on, the highest you can go is 1.4 volts before clipping occurs and performance drops precipitously. So make sure to look up the specifications for your external amplifier to see what its "sensitivity" is that generates its maximum power. If it is below 1.4 volts, then you are good."

Again, "clipping" in that comment referred to the build in power amp. If the preamp in fact started to clip at 1.4 V, then by the time it reaches 2 V, you would have seen much higher distortions plus noise than 0.016%.

In any case, if you want more pristine preamp output at higher than 1.4 V output level from the front left and right channel, you can use the amp assign feature to disconnect the power amps for those two channels. If you want to same better performance for all channels then you have to go with the X4700H that has a preamp mode.

1626090325099.png
 

StephenM

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Is there any chance crosstalk data is available for the preouts on x4700 or x3700?

I am assuming it's better than the amplifier results...
 

peng

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Is there any chance crosstalk data is available for the preouts on x4700 or x3700?

I am assuming it's better than the amplifier results...

8-Channel Electronic Volume: Audio Signal Processing (njr.com)
Page 16 should give you some idea. I assume that would be the best case scenario as it is the characteristics of the preamp only.

In any case I don't believe it would take much for the cross talk specs/measurements to be good enough for humans, though on paper the higher the better.:)
 

Fonsecafsa

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Congratulations for finding the source of error amir, also for not doubting from the data of engineers, just check if the methods are right.
It is interesting tho, when I tried to see analyze my sound system, I set my windows audio output for stereo only, large speakers without subwoofer to avoid these kind of errors, do you have a repository of the methodology followed?
Maybe this is a thing that could be checked as necessary to future reviewers testing the same methods to see if the data is reprodutible.
Denon's team also shows commitement, congrats to them, it makes the company more trusthfull
 

500Homeruns

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I am contemplating purchasing a Denon AVR-X4700H for my new home (which will be built soon).
I read through most of this thread, but I did not see if anybody used this receiver like I will be using it:
Main “Theater” Room = 5.2 with Revel Concerta F36 mains and large monitor/TV.
Kitchen (Zone 2)= 2 stereo speakers mounted on wall with smaller monitor/TV
Outdoor Covered Porch (Zone 3) = 2 outdoor stereo speakers (no monitor)

Will this be a good AVR for this application?
 
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peng

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I am contemplating purchasing a Denon AVR-X4700H for my new home (which will be built soon).
I read through most of this thread, but I did not see if anybody used this receiver like I will be using it:
Main “Theater” Room = 5.2 with Revel Concerta F36 mains and large monitor/TV.
Kitchen (Zone 2)= 2 stereo speakers mounted on wall with smaller monitor/TV
Outdoor Covered Porch (Zone 3) = 2 outdoor stereo speakers (no monitor)

Will this be a good AVR for this application?

It mainly depends on how much "power" you need for your application based on your distance and listening habits. A good way to answer your own question is to use some online calculators such as the following:

Peak SPL Calculator (hometheaterengineering.com)
Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers

Please read the instructions before using them. In addition, if your speaker's specified nominal impedance is 6 ohms, then when you enter the sensitivity specs you may want to lower it by about 1.25 dB Example: The F36 is rated 91dB (2.83V @ 1M) and Nominal Impedance 6 Ohms

so for the calculator to work right, you would enter 89.75 instead of 91.

That's because those calculators are based on sensitivity specs of x dB/Watt@1M instead of the x dB/2.83V@1M format that Revel uses.
 

mike7877

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That is not correct. The preamp did not clip at 1.4v, it was said that the power amp would start to clip at that point and the distortions of the power amp therefore began to affect (fed back) to the preamp output. You can see from the dash board that even at 2 volts, total distortions plus noise was about 0.016%, still lower than some of the separated prepamp/processors tested, for example the Marantz AV7705 did slightly worse under the same condition (@3.95 V XLR, that is equivalent to 1.975 V when matched with power amps such as Marantz, Yamaha etc., that has -6 dB lower gain when XLR inputs are used.

I don't know how many more times we have to clarify this point. Amir's comments quoted below could indeed easily confuse people who don't read between the lines. The same or similar question has been raised multiple times (I didn't count, just the feeling..:D).

"With the amp turned on, the highest you can go is 1.4 volts before clipping occurs and performance drops precipitously. So make sure to look up the specifications for your external amplifier to see what its "sensitivity" is that generates its maximum power. If it is below 1.4 volts, then you are good."

Again, "clipping" in that comment referred to the build in power amp. If the preamp in fact started to clip at 1.4 V, then by the time it reaches 2 V, you would have seen much higher distortions plus noise than 0.016%.

In any case, if you want more pristine preamp output at higher than 1.4 V output level from the front left and right channel, you can use the amp assign feature to disconnect the power amps for those two channels. If you want to same better performance for all channels then you have to go with the X4700H that has a preamp mode.

View attachment 140667

Eco mode makes the amps clip sooner, the voltage is approximately halved. Does clipping in eco mode affect the preamp the same way, causing distortion?
 

Everett T

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Eco mode makes the amps clip sooner, the voltage is approximately halved. Does clipping in eco mode affect the preamp the same way, causing distortion?
If you have the AVR in preamp mode, there is no reason to run eco mode. On models without preamp mode, using eco mode is recommended so as not to reduce the output voltage since the amps are on.
 

amper42

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Eco mode makes the amps clip sooner, the voltage is approximately halved. Does clipping in eco mode affect the preamp the same way, causing distortion?

If you have a Denon 3700, 4700 or 6700 and use "Pre-amp only" mode in amp assign, then ECO Mode can't be set. The ECO mode setting on the screen is displayed in grey as it's not doing anything. If you have high quality external amps this configuration can provide extremely low noise and distortion.

If the Denon 3700, 4700 or 6700 is setup using internal amps with ECO mode ON, amp power is cut by almost half to reduce heat and electricity usage. As you would expect, this can cause distortion to kick in sooner than with ECO OFF or ECO AUTO mode.

eco.png
 
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peng

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Eco mode makes the amps clip sooner, the voltage is approximately halved. Does clipping in eco mode affect the preamp the same way, causing distortion?

Not for preamp mode because it would disconnect the power amp inputs from the preamp outputs. Once the signal lines are disconnected, the power amps will have nothing to clip.
 

Newman

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Looking at photos of the back panel, I don't see a USB input for audio. I assumed there would be. How does one connect the USB audio output from a computer to AVRs as an input?
 

Steve Dallas

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Looking at photos of the back panel, I don't see a USB input for audio. I assumed there would be. How does one connect the USB audio output from a computer to AVRs as an input?

One does not connect via USB. One connects via HDMI or uses an external DAC.

I use HEOS quite often for streaming music with the AVR. Works well enough.
 

amper42

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Looking at photos of the back panel, I don't see a USB input for audio. I assumed there would be. How does one connect the USB audio output from a computer to AVRs as an input?

The Denon 4700 supports UPnP. This allows the user to connect via JRiver or Audirvana via wifi and it offers the same resolution as if you connected via a cable to the Denon receiver. If you absolutely want to use a cable, use an HDMI cable from the computer to the Denon 4700.
 
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