Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

[user54]

I think you are clear on the preamp mode, that will give you "clean" preamp output at 2 V and a little higher.

So I'll just try to explain the other "configuration(s)" you seem to be referring to.

Scenario/Configuration 1, that is, non preamp mode, and you are not using the amp assign feature, or "trick" in this case, to disconnect the FL and FR internal power amps.

In this case you can still expect SINAD of about 97 dB up to 1.4 V or a little higher. If you consider 97 dB clean (for me even 75 dB SINAD is "clean") then it is clean at 1.4 to 1.45 V. At higher output voltages, such as at 2V, SINAD would deteriorate to about 75 dB and probably down to 60-65 dB at 3 V.

Scenario 2, still in non preamp mode, but you are using the amp assign trick to disconnect the FL and FR internal power amps:

In this case, since the FL and FR power amp inputs are disconnected from the FL and FR preamp outputs, you can expect about 97 dB SINAD at preamp outputs (FL and FR only) of 2 V. Again, the preamp outputs can actually reach much higher than 2 V. If you looked at the curve of the AVR-X6700H, SINAD remained quite "clean", at 92 dB when the preamp output reached 4.4 V. I wouldn't count on the exceptionally high 4.4 V consistently but I would say 3 to 3.5 V should be attainable consistently.

That's for the FL and FR preamp outputs that are disconnected from the internal power amps, the other preamp channel outputs that are still connected to their corresponding power amp inputs will again, have about 97 dB SINAD at voltages up to 1.4 to 1.45 V and will drop to about 75 dB at 2 V.

So the bottom line is, if you don't use preamp mode, you can only disconnect the FL and FR power amps from the FL and FR preamp outputs, so you can only expect the FL and FR preamp output signals to remain "clean" at 2 V, whereas the other preamp output signals will remain "clean at up to 1.4 to 1.45 V and down to about 75 dB at 2 V and beyond.

I hope this is clear, if not, we can try again.

Lastly, keep in mind "clean" is a relative term, we all know Amir seems to set his bar quite high. For me, and I am sure many others as well, 75 dB SINAD is perhaps clean enough. Put it this way, the Marantz AV7705's SINAD was about 75 dB at 2 V (that is 4 V from the XLR outputs) and that is for preamp mode naturally because it is a preamp processor. So clearly many of the AV7705's owners may consider 75 dB is "clean".

if I limit the gain on the njr8080 which stands after the DAC to 1.4 Volts - 0 dB, and not like now 2V - 0dB? will I get the maximum efficiency of the whole device, studying the manuals tells me this

 

[Propheticus]

I give up.
Do any of you guys know if the Denon can display the resolution of the source.
Listening to Spotify (denon) and trying to see, whats the res.
Thanks

That would be a quite boring display, as Spotify connect to the AVR always uses the highest bitrate they offer. Currently 320kbps Ogg Vorbis.

 

[Propheticus]

Air going through a system is not recommended. Either top or bottom regardless. Like in a convection oven, heat dissipates out through the top w/ out top obstruction. Its simple, why compromises your system? Make sense?

I have a 25 year old Yamaha AVR. I opened it up last year, it was clean as a whistle. Unless something forces air into the unit, NO DUST will accumulate, PERIOD!

That air which is leaving the top due to convection creates a low pressure zone. The pressure difference has to be compensated for by air entering the unit from the side or bottom to reach equilibrium again. This air can contain dust, right?
All you're doing with a fan is speeding up the airflow compared to convection alone. You can either create high pressure by blowing air in or low pressure by sucking air out. An upside to the pushing in version is you could add a removable filter in front of the fan to catch dust. The high pressure you create inside prevents other unfiltered air from entering.

Also, when the AVR is not turned on, dust can settle on top of the unit. But it has ventilation slits in the top, so dust can fall in....

 

[Propheticus]

Thanks. I'm familiar with Denon HeOS. My question was about lossless support for Deezer or Tidal via HeOS app? I know for a fact that the older Denon models such as the X4400h only support lossy playback of Tidal and Deezer.

Some googling finds that Deezer does not support their Hifi via HEOS (or the other way round) and Tidal offers HiFi streams in Lossless FLAC 16bit/44.1kHz.

 

[amper42]

Will the quality be better through wi-fi than through usb?

If you are using HEOS the audio file will not be compressed if it's streaming directly from the USB thumb drive. If you are using HEOS over wifi via the HEOS app then there will be some compression taking place in the chain when using Airplay. If you are using Audirvana with a wireless DLNA UPnP connection then the wifi signal will stream to the Denon receiver without compression.

"Quality" is an interesting word. It could mean is the difference noticeable? Some have indicated they can't hear a difference in various audio file formats. For me, I prefer streaming delivery without compression. It may not matter to you?

 

[EB1000]

Some googling finds that Deezer does not support their Hifi via HEOS (or the other way round) and Tidal offers HiFi streams in Lossless FLAC 16bit/44.1kHz.

Yep, I've got a replay from Denon support, apologizing for the inconvenience, telling me that currently Deezer HIFI is not supported by HEOS and they have no timeline for if and when it will be added. This is why I preordered the Yamaha RX-A6A...

 

[Macfox]

Yep, I've got a replay from Denon support, apologizing for the inconvenience, telling me that currently Deezer HIFI is not supported by HEOS and they have no timeline for if and when it will be added. This is why I preordered the Yamaha RX-A6A...

Unfortunately, HEOS development seems to have stalled somewhat. Still waiting for proper Google Assistant support...

 

[PitCook]

that's exactly what I'm missing at D&M: Chromecast built-in

 

[Bello]

That air which is leaving the top due to convection creates a low pressure zone. The pressure difference has to be compensated for by air entering the unit from the side or bottom to reach equilibrium again. This air can contain dust, right?
All you're doing with a fan is speeding up the airflow compared to convection alone. You can either create high pressure by blowing air in or low pressure by sucking air out. An upside to the pushing in version is you could add a removable filter in front of the fan to catch dust. The high pressure you create inside prevents other unfiltered air from entering.

Also, when the AVR is not turned on, dust can settle on top of the unit. But it has ventilation slits in the top, so dust can fall in....

As we all know, all systems are made to operate in an open air environment. If confined in a closed, low ceiling cabinet. Hot air will bonce back into the unit, cooking your system. My Yamaha, which I had for many years never had major heat issues running open air w/out fans. As I mentioned, I recently I opened it, after 25 years of use. You would think it would be covered internally w/ dust from the top louvers down. Surprisingly, it was fairly clean w/out plie of dust on the internal components. I believe this is from limited air movement into the system. These systems in open air (w/out a ceiling) mostly run hot, not-at-all detrimental to the system as I experienced. Especially spring / NE summer days without AC cooling. Couple of things that contribute to good heat dissipation. First design layout of components, no metal bridges (i;e 4700) for ribbon cables over very hot component (amplifiers) convection oven. Second, a clear overhead venting, unobstructed top. Pushing air through a system will eventually be more of a determent to system then if you left it alone in open air. If confined in a cabinet, I would only recommend sending air over the top / across the top, (Not through the system, no need) just away from of the system top. Back of the system to front out is the best overall solution.

I've tested this method throughout this past year of ownership. Perfect! Cool as a cucumber. Even today, hot, w/ out AC. System never went above 94 degrees w/ thermal sensor sitting 1/2 inch above the louvers for about an hour of play.

Hope that helps,

Good luck!

 

[Bodhidan]

Hi folks, I recently picked up an X4700 replacing an old Onyo TR-NR616. I'm finding music really harsh at higher volumes. I have run Audacity and purchased the app for tweaking. Do other owners have any advice for tweaking it. I enjoy listening to music loud and have been disappointed that it has become unenjoyable. Imagine it must be able to be addressed via settings. Currently, I listen to music in stereo with multieq xt32 set to reference and all other options off.

 

[amper42]

Hi folks, I recently picked up an X4700 replacing an old Onyo TR-NR616. I'm finding music really harsh at higher volumes. I have run Audacity and purchased the app for tweaking. Do other owners have any advice for tweaking it. I enjoy listening to music loud and have been disappointed that it has become unenjoyable. Imagine it must be able to be addressed via settings. Currently, I listen to music in stereo with multieq xt32 set to reference and all other options off.

1. Audyssey may slightly elevate the 2K+ range in an attempt to flatten the FR. If this is what is happening in your setup and it's undesirable try running in "Direct" mode. This will bypass Audyssey. If that doesn't resolve the issue the Audyssey app has a 2nd roll off option you can try.

2. If the harsh sound you are hearing is distortion at higher volume levels you might try pre-amp mode with external amp(s) and see if that sounds different to your ears.

3. The Audyssey app offers the ability to create a custom curve that can offer tweaking of the FR to match your needs. The additional use of Ratbuddy and REW can help overcome obstacles the room may place in your path.

 

[Bodhidan]

1. Audyssey may slightly elevate the 2K+ range in an attempt to flatten the FR. If this is what is happening in your setup and it's undesirable try running in "Direct" mode. This will bypass Audyssey. If that doesn't resolve the issue the Audyssey app has a 2nd roll off option you can try.

2. If the harsh sound you are hearing is distortion at higher volume levels you might try pre-amp mode with external amp(s) and see if that sounds different to your ears.

3. The Audyssey app offers the ability to create a custom curve that can offer tweaking of the FR to match your needs. The additional use of Ratbuddy and REW can help overcome obstacles the room may place in your path.

Thanks, I will continue to play in the app to address. This is my first experience with what I assume people refer to when describing listening fatigue. I previously had a Pioneer Elite-53 that suffered from the faulty TI main board chip then the budget Onkyo to cover the time before settling in this model Denon. I've have the same speaker set up throughout all three receivers so think it's got to be an EQing issue more so than distortion. I will try direct mode but do not want to settle on that because I want to keep my Sub active.

 

[amper42]

Thanks, I will continue to play in the app to address. This is my first experience with what I assume people refer to when describing listening fatigue. I previously had a Pioneer Elite-53 that suffered from the faulty TI main board chip then the budget Onkyo to cover the time before settling in this model Denon. I've have the same speaker set up throughout all three receivers so think it's got to be an EQing issue more so than distortion. I will try direct mode but do not want to settle on that because I want to keep my Sub active.

The Audyssey app allows you to set the FR range it impacts. Some users like to limit Audyssey to frequencies lower than 500Hz. That might be worth a try for your setup.

 

[JonfromCB]

Hi folks, I recently picked up an X4700 replacing an old Onyo TR-NR616. I'm finding music really harsh at higher volumes. I have run Audacity and purchased the app for tweaking. Do other owners have any advice for tweaking it. I enjoy listening to music loud and have been disappointed that it has become unenjoyable. Imagine it must be able to be addressed via settings. Currently, I listen to music in stereo with multieq xt32 set to reference and all other options off.

Can you tell us about your speakers; how many you are driving, their efficiency, and their distance from your listening position? I ask because you mention the word "loud" twice. You could possibly be overdriving the power supply. I agree you should check all your settings. Are you running your speakers "full range" or do you have the fronts set to "small"? Are you minimizing background noise when you calibrate Audyssey? I know these things are basic, but often it's the overlooked basics causing problems. Good luck

 

[oupee]

Hi folks, I recently picked up an X4700 replacing an old Onyo TR-NR616. I'm finding music really harsh at higher volumes. I have run Audacity and purchased the app for tweaking. Do other owners have any advice for tweaking it. I enjoy listening to music loud and have been disappointed that it has become unenjoyable. Imagine it must be able to be addressed via settings. Currently, I listen to music in stereo with multieq xt32 set to reference and all other options off.

1. reset the unit to factory settings
2. return Denon
3. buy Marantz

 

[Macfox]

Can you tell us about your speakers; how many you are driving, their efficiency, and their distance from your listening position? I ask because you mention the word "loud" twice. You could possibly be overdriving the power supply. I agree you should check all your settings. Are you running your speakers "full range" or do you have the fronts set to "small"? Are you minimizing background noise when you calibrate Audyssey? I know these things are basic, but often it's the overlooked basics causing problems. Good luck

Settings might be different from the Onkyo, especially bass gain or crossover frequency. If the settings are the same, I'd surprise me if the power supply is the culprit.
The Onkyo is slightly less powerful, so should have had the same problems then.
TX-NR636 (successor to 616) measurements

Denon 3312 measurements (predecessor to 4x000 range)

 

[Propheticus]

1. reset the unit to factory settings
2. return Denon
3. buy Marantz

Well that's utterly useless. All that hassle for no change (now) or slightly worse performance (older models).

I second the tips about reducing background noise, esp low freq rumble (fridge for instance), and having a try at limiting correction to between 300 and 500 Hz.
Lastly anecdotal: my Denon AVR's included Audyssey mic was actually faulty, which I only noticed upon remeasuring after shifting speakers. I was playing around because the sound (with correction) did not sound ok to me. The app would repeat a channel's sweep at ever higher levels and reported it could not detect it. Actually it went so loud I feared it would damage the speaker, so I quickly turned off the whole AVR.
Testing the mic via a laptop taught me its cable was broken inside, slight movements would cause distortion or no signal at all. I then used the old mic (same model number 100% match) of the Onkyo AVR I had replaced. Much better results, obviously.

 

[Bodhidan]

Can you tell us about your speakers; how many you are driving, their efficiency, and their distance from your listening position? I ask because you mention the word "loud" twice. You could possibly be overdriving the power supply. I agree you should check all your settings. Are you running your speakers "full range" or do you have the fronts set to "small"? Are you minimizing background noise when you calibrate Audyssey? I know these things are basic, but often it's the overlooked basics causing problems. Good luck

When I say loud I'm exaggerating a bit. I'm listening at below reference, probably as high as -10db or so when I'm cranking it. Currently, I'm not even getting that high because I find it too harsh. I can't see myself overdriving the x4700. I'm running Pioneer SP-FS52 in stereo so budget speakers that are power-hungry but were driven fine by my old receivers. I know my speakers are budget and are on the list of things to upgrade but I've always been fond of them and they have never sounded harsh like this.

1. reset the unit to factory settings
2. return Denon
3. buy Marantz

I've only started to delve into the back and forth regarding Denon vs Marantz. What I'm experiencing is profound and I feel like there has to be something that can be done is settings and EQ to sort things out. I want to try everything I possibly can to get this receiver sounding decent before giving up on it.

Settings might be different from the Onkyo, especially bass gain or crossover frequency. If the settings are the same, it'd surprise me if the power supply is the culprit.
The Onkyo is slightly less powerful, so should have had the same problems then.
TX-NR636 (successor to 616) measurements

Denon 3312 measurements (predecessor to 4x000 range)

I agree there's no reason to assume that unit is underpowered. The x4700 is as powerful as my old Pioneer and more powerful than my Onkyo placeholder.

 

[Propheticus]

I've tested this method throughout this past year of ownership. Perfect! Cool as a cucumber. Even today, hot, w/ out AC. System never went above 94 degrees w/ thermal sensor sitting 1/2 inch above the louvers for about an hour of play.

I'm not disputing your experience by the way. This sound like it works perfectly fine. Removing the hot air from the cabinet instead of a stream of air going straight up bouncing on the ceiling sounds like a good idea.
Still creating an airflow over the top will reduce the air pressure there (Bernoulli's principle), in effect (also) sucking air up, in doing so creating airflow through the unit.

 

[oupee]

Well that's utterly useless. All that hassle for no change (now) or slightly worse performance (older models).

I second the tips about reducing background noise, esp low freq rumble (fridge for instance), and having a try at limiting correction to between 300 and 500 Hz.
Lastly anecdotal: my Denon AVR's included Audyssey mic was actually faulty, which I only noticed upon remeasuring after shifting speakers. I was playing around because the sound (with correction) did not sound ok to me. The app would repeat a channel's sweep at ever higher levels and reported it could not detect it. Actually it went so loud I feared it would damage the speaker, so I quickly turned off the whole AVR.
Testing the mic via a laptop taught me its cable was broken inside, slight movements would cause distortion or no signal at all. I then used the old mic (same model number 100% match) of the Onkyo AVR I had replaced. Much better results, obviously.

The biggest problem is that all Audyssey microphones can be considered broken because they are not calibrated. The cheapest calibrated microphone with a 3.5mm jack is the Dayton iMM-6 that I have. It has a serial number and I have to download a calibration file that corrects the frequency response in the range of -3.9db to + 2.3db. What tolerance does the Audyssey microphone have? Who knows and where it is written? Audyssey microphones are made as fast as croissants and are not controlled by anyone. Although I have Marantz and Audyssey, I consider Audyssey to be broken just because of the microphone.