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Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

peng

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Thanks peng, yes good point, I was comparing apples and oranges.

A better question is (and more relevant to my need/use), would you expect HDMI input to result in same 4 ohm amp measurements below, which were CD analogue input in pure direct.

With same SINAD vs watts curve:
I don't know but I can guess based on the difference between the two scenarios. The analog path, in direct mode would not include the DAC. The SINAD of the DAC is 107 dB, so I don't think they should be any significant degradation. My guess is, the results would be almost the same. May be you should ask Amir why he always use analog input for that test.
 

peng

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I guess it's the only way to see the amplifier in isolation of digital circuitry.

But would be ideal to have both analogue input AND HDMI input for amp measurements. To give a more complete picture.
Yes, both would be nice but if only one is to be done, then I agree it is better to use analog so the DAC cannot be blamed. In this case, Denon does use a good DAC in the midrange models. The AK4458's SINAD is better than the ESS Sabre DAC, the ES9006 used in Yamaha's comparable below flagship model AVRs. The ES9006 has better SNR/DR.
 
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100 kOhm is definitely high enough, so I wouldn't worry about it at all. If it is turned off, it should be higher even if not infinite and you can safely measure it with an ordinary multi meter if you are curious to know roughly what it is. Make sure it is unplugged though so it is 100% off, before measuring.
Ok, I just used my good old multi meter, everything unplugged in my Tube-Amp. Input impedance on the only existing cinch-input is about 81 kOhms. So it seems to be sound-effectless for the internal front amp when the ext. amp is passively connected.
 

peng

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Ok, I just used my good old multi meter, everything unplugged in my Tube-Amp. Input impedance on the only existing cinch-input is about 81 kOhms. So it seems to be sound-effectless for the internal front amp when the ext. amp is passively connected.
That looks good when the amp is "turned off", ie unplugged. If it is left on you cannot measure it this way but if the specs say 100 kOhm that it should be fine, obviously.
 
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Now this is getting really funny! We (not just me) have told you the Marantz has the same preamp/volume control ICs and DACs, but has an extra HDAM buffer stage at the end. So whatever the slew rate of the HDAM, let's assume it is infinite, or 100,000 V/µs , it doesn't matter because it will still be limited by the parts upstream, in fact it can only slow things down as the signal has to go through an extra stage. And by the way, in fact some Marantz models such as the SR6014 (so quite possibly the SR7015 as well), just like the Denon AVR-X3600H and X4500H, have the same OPA used right behind the HDAMs, and are also used in other parts of the signal chain.

So logically speaking, this is another proof that based on what you have said about those OPAs being the reasons, your claim of the "Denon" sound being horrible, tragic vs the "Marantz" sound cannot be real, but your Placebo, expectation bias induced imaginary!! Still, logic aside, I believe you heard what you heard, but it would have to be for other reasons, such as messed up settings, not comparing apples to apples, some defective parts involved etc.
I didn't have time and I also had a birthday, but you forced me to get service manuals for AVRs and AV processors (8805, 7705, 4400, 4500, 6500, 8012 and others). Service manuals 4700 and 8015 are not available, but findings 4500 and 8012 can be applied to them without any problems. Due to the differences between 4400 and 4500, they will be the same and possibly better due to measurements and tests of 8015. So the 8805 is the best DAC 4490 and they all stay the same 4458. They all have the tragic JRC8080 as the DAC. Only the 8012 has a 30% faster op amp per DAC (not even the 8805). I dare say that if it had 8012 preamp mode, it would be better than 8805. Marantz uses HDAM, it's a few 80MHz transistors. Denon outputs a pair of 30MHz transistors. The preamplifier in Marantz is faster and regardless of the price, the best is the 8012. The Denon 4xxx series is the same, including power amplifiers, and they are quite simple (it doesn't matter now). The 6700 and 8012 have exactly the same amplifiers. From what I saw in the service manuals, I would choose the 8012. I repeat that I do not have the service manual 4700,6700 and 8015, but everything can be applied to newer models. In addition, 8015 does not need (but has) preamp mode. Interestingly, the owners of Marantz write that they have a more detailed and warmer sound, but those who have not heard of Denon do not write anything like that. From this I can deduce that Marantz is simply more faithful, it is also more expensive.
@peng is good that you have studied a few manuals and advise those who can not read that you know a few online calculations, including the slew rate, but if you do not understand why it is always better to have a higher slew rate than calculated, write to @pma . He built a Hi-Fi preamplifier (maybe Hi-end) with a slew rate of 125V / us and try to explain to him that he is moron, because in your opinion 5V/us(JRC8080) is enough for him. Good luck and the end.
 
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Rottmannash

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I didn't have time and I also had a birthday, but you forced me to get service manuals for AVRs and AV processors (8805, 7705, 4400, 4500, 6500, 8012 and others). Service manuals 4700 and 8015 are not available, but findings 4500 and 8012 can be applied to them without any problems. Due to the differences between 4400 and 4500, they will be the same and possibly better due to measurements and tests of 8015. So the 8805 is the best DAC 4490 and they all stay the same 4458. They all have the tragic JRC8080 as the DAC. Only the 8012 has a 30% faster op amp per DAC (not even the 8805). I dare say that if it had 8012 preamp mode, it would be better than 8805. Marantz uses HDAM, it's a few 80MHz transistors. Denon outputs a pair of 30MHz transistors. The preamplifier in Marantz is faster and regardless of the price, the best is the 8012. The Denon 4xxx series is the same, including power amplifiers, and they are quite simple (it doesn't matter now). The 6700 and 8012 have exactly the same amplifiers. From what I saw in the service manuals, I would choose the 8012. I repeat that I do not have the service manual 4700,6700 and 8015, but everything can be applied to newer models. In addition, 8015 does not need (but has) preamp mode. Interestingly, the owners of Marantz write that they have a more detailed and warmer sound, but those who have not heard of Denon do not write anything like that. From this I can deduce that Marantz is simply more faithful, it is also more expensive.
@peng is good that you have studied a few manuals and advise those who can not read that you know a few online calculations, including the slew rate, but if you do not understand why it is always better to have a higher slew rate than calculated, write to @pma . He built a Hi-Fi preamplifier (maybe Hi-end) with a slew rate of 125V / us and try to explain to him that he is moron, because in your opinion 5V/us(JRC8080) is enough for him. Good luck and the end.
You do know the HDAM circuits have been shown to degrade the signal, not enhance it.
 

Music1969

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Yes, both would be nice but if only one is to be done, then I agree it is better to use analog so the DAC cannot be blamed.
Noted but in
Frequency response is identical in all CD modes which surprised me:


Maybe it never digitizes this input? Anyway, it is good to see such wide bandwidth and dead flat response in audible band.
Hi @amirm

Did you ever measure frequency response for any of these x700H Denon AVRs, with HDMI input?

Is it as extended as CD analogue input?

Especially when HDMI is set to 'Pure Direct' ? There's no sign of resampling happening in the frequency response?
 
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It seems to me he's now fixated on the 5V/μs op amp being the issue though. For me, I said I was done after multiple attempts..:D
You still haven't answered me but ok. It's hereditary to throw everything at my bias against the tragic JRC8080 (15Mhz / 5V / μs) when you don't have the answer. Write to Denon why they use fast transistors (180MHz) in the PMA A100, why it has half the power of the amazing AVR3700, and don't forget to send them your favorite online slew rate calculator. I understand this is a Sinad forum and the sound is coughing. It's amazing when a deaf mathematician becomes a Hi-Fi expert.
 

user54

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I read the entire thread and realized that for a long time dad wanted wherever he wanted, DENON receivers, and almost all the others have weak power supplies, this is expensive for the manufacturer and he saves on it, I still dream of putting a separate power supply to the 1500-watt amplifier, I understand that this thread is not on this topic
 

peng

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I read the entire thread and realized that for a long time dad wanted wherever he wanted, DENON receivers, and almost all the others have weak power supplies, this is expensive for the manufacturer and he saves on it, I still dream of putting a separate power supply to the 1500-watt amplifier, I understand that this thread is not on this topic
Do you actually need more power than the avr can offer or you just want more?
 

Pdxwayne

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@peng, when you said a certain sinad is clean enough, it is for movies only or for both musics and movies?

Over the last couple weeks, I tried using onkyo 808 preamp out, marantz av 8801, and also using minidsp HD 2x4 between the analog out of my DAC and amp. All not as clean as simply doing DAC to amp, when playing music.

I am trying to get something, AVR, processor, etc, that is as clean as DAC (gustard x16) direct to amp after doing crossover and eq. Is Demon still the only reasonably priced choice that is "clean" enough for music?

Thanks!
 

peng

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@peng, when you said a certain sinad is clean enough, it is for movies only or for both musics and movies?

Over the last couple weeks, I tried using onkyo 808 preamp out, marantz av 8801, and also using minidsp HD 2x4 between the analog out of my DAC and amp. All not as clean as simply doing DAC to amp, when playing music.

I am trying to get something, AVR, processor, etc, that is as clean as DAC (gustard x16) direct to amp after doing crossover and eq. Is Demon still the only reasonably priced choice that is "clean" enough for music?

Thanks!
It is measured with a test signal, typically a sine wave. The definition is in the linked below:

What Is SINAD - Audio Precision (ap.com)

If say, the pre out signal's SINAD is 95 dB in the audio band and say from mVs to 2 V, then I would say it is clean enough for music and movies. That's just me, others may have a lower of higher bar. Music and movies are sine wave signals too, they look complex because the signals are made up of not one, but many sine waves at various frequencies, fundamentals and harmonics.



If I understand you correctly, going from your DAC analog out directly to a power amp using the DAC's build in volume control sounded best to you. That is obviously possible, but is also subjective. It also depends on how you define "clean". When comparing test bench results, "clean" usually means very low distortions+noise and it is objective in nature.

With the subjective tests, it is possible that you may (or may not) prefer higher, audible distortions such that something that measures 1% THD may sound "better" and/or "cleaner" than something that has 0.01% THD, and again that's to you, may not be to others. However, something that has >10% THD will most unlikely sound not as good as something that has 1% THD and in that case it may apply to most people. Basically, I would say if subjective measurement (ears and brains) is used, things can get much more complicated than just comparing bench test results.
 
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Pdxwayne

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It is measured with a test signal, typically a sine wave. So it is neither music nor movies. The definition is in the linked below:

What Is SINAD - Audio Precision (ap.com)

If I understand you correctly, going from your DAC analog out directly to a power amp using the DAC's build in volume control sounded best to you. That is obviously possible, but is also subjective. It also depends on how you define "clean". When comparing test bench results, "clean" usually means very low distortions+noise and it is objective in nature.

With the subjective tests, it is possible that you may (or may not) prefer higher, audible distortions such that something that measures 1% THD may sound "better" and/or "cleaner" than something that has 0.01% THD, and again that's to you, may not be to others. However, something that has >10% THD will most unlikely sound not as good as something that has 1% THD and in that case it may apply to most people. Basically, I would say if subjective measurement (ears and brains) is used, things can get much more complicated than just comparing bench test results.
Thanks. The DAC is Gustard x16. Objectively much cleaner than all the devices I mentioned. ; )
 

user54

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Do you actually need more power than the avr can offer or you just want more?
just what would be, what the manufacturer promised, but on all channels at the same time)
Do you actually need more power than the avr can offer or you just want more?
just what would be, what the manufacturer promised, but on all channels at the same time)
 

user54

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I studied the manual for 4400 all evening, as I understand it, it is very similar to 4700, judging by the diagram, everything is not bad there, and even the 8080 has low distortion according to the manual 0.0005, but with signals no higher than one volt, this also applies to the volume control and keys, which there are enough along the signal path, generally at 1v rms, the iskmdeniya will be 0.0005))
 

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