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Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

peng

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I found the results using Direct mode can be amazingly different with different speakers connected and based on the crossover setting selected in Audyssey.

When I had my Sierra Towers setup they sound 100% better with Dynamic EQ and an 80Hz crossover to my dual HSU subs. When I would use Direct mode for playback they would sound flat in comparison. But once I setup Dynamic EQ and the dual subs were crossed over at 80Hz. The sound was amazing.

In contrast, when I setup my Revel F328Be with the Denon 4700 in Direct mode it was the reverse. I loved the Direct mode sound as it offered a HUGE fat sound even without my subs. When I engaged Audyssey it tamed some of the lower end of the F328Be and elevated highs 2dB over 5K so the FR was less of a wedge (with a slant down from 30Hz to 20KHz) and made the FR flatter in comparison. I love being able to select the curve I'm in the mood for by switching between Direct and Stereo modes with Dynamic EQ off.

This is the thing about the Denon 3700/4700... there are a ton of options. Dynamic EQ, Audyssey custom curves, flat versus custom - it's all up to you. If you don't read English and don't have access to a user manual in your native tongue it can be quite difficult to understand all the options. If when I got my Denon 4500 a year ago, I only put it in Direct or Pure/Direct mode and listened, I would be disappointed if I didn't know about the various options. But now that I understand how to configure the settings I can make it sound any way I want it.

It's probably hard to understand this if you haven't been exposed to the learning curve or don't want to mess with it. If that's the case I would stay with my Hegel H90. Turn it on and that's the majority of options besides connecting the Mac via USB. :D

As you said before, sometimes we have to let it go, I am taking your advice as it is getting crazier and crazier.:D
 

steve_smith

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The only way I can get email on this topic is if I post something so here it goes: I just purchased a 4700!

I'm thinking of a 4700 too - I've done plenty of research, and I still want clarification on something. I understand the "all or nothing" preamp mode concept, but my question is this: If your amp is connected to the pre-amp connections, is there a mode where you can still use the internal amps AND your external amp? Stated another way, if your external amp is connected to the pre-amp connections, is there no way to combine the power of both internal and external amps at the same time? My apologies if this is clear to everyone else.
 

amper42

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I'm thinking of a 4700 too - I've done plenty of research, and I still want clarification on something. I understand the "all or nothing" preamp mode concept, but my question is this: If your amp is connected to the pre-amp connections, is there a mode where you can still use the internal amps AND your external amp? Stated another way, if your external amp is connected to the pre-amp connections, is there no way to combine the power of both internal and external amps at the same time? My apologies if this is clear to everyone else.

Yes, you can use the pre-outs on the Denon 4700 for external amps without using "Pre-amp" mode. In that configuration, the internal amps are still active even though your speakers are connected to an external amp.
 

steve_smith

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Yes, you can use the pre-outs on the Denon 4700 for external amps without using "Pre-amp" mode. In that configuration, the internal amps are still active even though your speakers are connected to an external amp.

Thanks amper42!! I suspected as much considering that would kinda be a step back instead of an improvement.
 

gaussianmist

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I'm thinking of a 4700 too - I've done plenty of research, and I still want clarification on something. I understand the "all or nothing" preamp mode concept, but my question is this: If your amp is connected to the pre-amp connections, is there a mode where you can still use the internal amps AND your external amp? Stated another way, if your external amp is connected to the pre-amp connections, is there no way to combine the power of both internal and external amps at the same time? My apologies if this is clear to everyone else.

I think you also can use "Amp Assign 11.1" and then connect your power amp to the front channels. The advantages to this approach is that your external amp powering your fronts won't be confronted with clipping of the internal amp. The downside is that the remaining external amps (if you have any others) may be.
 

rccarguy

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Stereo without bass and treble control and room correction = low fidelity. I'm ok with such lo-fi music reproduction in my workout room while I'm clanging weights around, but now that I've heard high fidelity sound in room(i.e. room corrected +/- 1-2 dB response to below 20 Hz), it would be difficult for me to settle for the low fidelity sound of two speakers in a room without eq no matter how expensive or "audiophile" the "gear" is. So different strokes for different folks. Pure Direct = low fidelity unless someone has a way to address room issues in this mode. But I haven't seen anything that shows this button in any way improves sound quality. It seems to appeal to a necessary audience and is therefore included.
Lol my two channel system sounds great.
 

AdamG

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JonfromCB

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Thanks amper42!! I suspected as much considering that would kinda be a step back instead of an improvement.

That's my understanding too and is quite the opposite of gaussianmist's understanding in his above post. What is correct? This part of the review is clear as mud and confusing at best. The verbiage says "amplifiers off" but the amplifiers cannot be turned off. I take it to mean when the internal amps are used and when the internal amps are not used. That confusing verbiage ("with the amp turned on") is also used below the graph in the test as follows.... "As you see, the best performance is around 1.1 volts which produces over 100 dB SINAD (dashboard uses 2 volt output so gets lower SINAD). With the amp turned on, the highest you can go is 1.4 volts before clipping occurs and performance drops precipitously. So make sure to look up the specifications for your external amplifier to see what its "sensitivity" is that generates its maximum power. If it is below 1.4 volts, then you are good."

The graph and the verbiage (my interpretation) seem to indicate that in preamp only mode the 4700 can cleanly drive an amp with a sensitivity up to 2.3 volts but if the AVR is used with any combination of outboard amp and internal amps it clips at 1.4 volts.

Is that correct? Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.




1619706385756.png
 
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Beershaun

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That's my understanding too and is quite the opposite of gaussianmist's understanding in his above post. What is correct? This part of the review is clear as mud and confusing at best. The verbiage says "amplifiers off" but the amplifiers cannot be turned off. That is stated again in the verbiage beneath the graph as follows.... "As you see, the best performance is around 1.1 volts which produces over 100 dB SINAD (dashboard uses 2 volt output so gets lower SINAD). With the amp turned on, the highest you can go is 1.4 volts before clipping occurs and performance drops precipitously. So make sure to look up the specifications for your external amplifier to see what its "sensitivity" is that generates its maximum power. If it is below 1.4 volts, then you are good."

The graph and the verbiage seem to indicate that in preamp only mode the 4700 can cleanly drive an amp with a sensitivity up to 2.3 volts but if the AVR is used with any combination of outboard amp and internal amps it clips at 1.4 volts.




View attachment 127026
That's right. Preamp only mode=amps off. Amp assign or other equivalent configuration using both onboard amps and pre.amp.outputs at the same time=amps on.
 

peng

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That's my understanding too and is quite the opposite of gaussianmist's understanding in his above post. What is correct? This part of the review is clear as mud and confusing at best. The verbiage says "amplifiers off" but the amplifiers cannot be turned off. That is stated again in the verbiage beneath the graph as follows.... "As you see, the best performance is around 1.1 volts which produces over 100 dB SINAD (dashboard uses 2 volt output so gets lower SINAD). With the amp turned on, the highest you can go is 1.4 volts before clipping occurs and performance drops precipitously. So make sure to look up the specifications for your external amplifier to see what its "sensitivity" is that generates its maximum power. If it is below 1.4 volts, then you are good."

The graph and the verbiage seem to indicate that in preamp only mode the 4700 can cleanly drive an amp with a sensitivity up to 2.3 volts but if the AVR is used with any combination of outboard amp and internal amps it clips at 1.4 volts.




View attachment 127026

Gaussianmist is correct. Using the amp assign feature, you could assign the front left and front right channels to pre outs, thereby disconnecting the internal front left and front right power amps. This feature has been explained in many posts, so I guess that might have been the reason Amir did not mention in that review.

One member has actually posted the screenshots to show how it is done. If you cannot find it, I can try to locate it and post a link. To be clear, the amp assign feature only allows you to do it to the front left and right channels, that is, disconnect those two internal power amps. For the other 7 channels, the internal power amps will remain connected. Note: The AVR-X8500H, and presumable the A110, actually allows you to disconnect any or all internal amps from the pre outs. Again, for all other Denon and Marantz models, you can only disconnect the front two channels, or all channels if you use the preamp mode.

"Turned off" is sort of a misnomer because even in preamp mode (unless that's changed in 2020 but I doubt that), the internal power amps are not really "turned off" in a true sense, they are just disconnected from the pre outs so they will not be (physically cannot) amplifying the signal at all.
 

bigguyca

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That's right. Preamp only mode=amps off. Amp assign or other equivalent configuration using both onboard amps and pre.amp.outputs at the same time=amps on.

This has been noted dozens of times on this forum and others, but for some reason the facts seem to be lost on too many people, so: The internal power amplifiers are not turned-off in any of these preamp modes. The internal power amplifiers can be disconnected from the preamps.

In the preamp-only mode the Denon products are put into the ECO mode that reduces the power amplifier rail voltages. This in turn reduces the heat output from the power amplifiers.
 

gaussianmist

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In the preamp-only mode the Denon products are put into the ECO mode that reduces the power amplifier rail voltages. This in turn reduces the heat output from the power amplifiers.

So a logical extension of this is: If you have a Denon which precedes the 2020 models and doesn't have pre-amp only mode, you can effectively accomplish pre-amp only mode by turning on ECO mode?
 

Macfox

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So a logical extension of this is: If you have a Denon which precedes the 2020 models and doesn't have pre-amp only mode, you can effectively accomplish pre-amp only mode by turning on ECO mode?
Not entirely, because the amps will still be connected to the pre-amps and clipping of the amps will still cause distortion on the pre-out signal to the external amp.
 

bigguyca

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So a logical extension of this is: If you have a Denon which precedes the 2020 models and doesn't have pre-amp only mode, you can effectively accomplish pre-amp only mode by turning on ECO mode?

No that isn't logical. Hopefully you are joking, although it is hard to see the humor. The text is:

"In the preamp-only mode the Denon products are put into the ECO mode that reduces the power amplifier rail voltages. This in turn reduces the heat output from the power amplifiers."

The text says nothing about what happens outside of the preamp-only mode.

Logic: If preamp-only mode, then ECO mode and reduced rail voltages.

This does not imply ECO mode then preamps disconnected from power amplifier channels.

Again, you must be joking...
 

JonfromCB

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Hi Peng, What we have here is a failure to communicate. lol I certainly understand all the ways the 4700 amps can be configured and how it's preamp outs can be connected to an outboard amp. How the 4700 amps can be assigned and how it can be connected to an outboard amp is not the question. Also, please understand I'm not being flippant with you. You have been very helpful and are certainly being so again. I appreciate it!

I think most of the people in this thread understand the misnomer about the amps being "ON" and "OFF" vs the internal amps being used or not used, and that the 4700 amps cannot be turned off. That's not the question. The verbiage and graph in the test imply that when any internal amps are used with an external amp the 4700 clips at 1.4 volts.

Beershaun says in the above post that's correct. I've also read that in other places. You say that is not correct without addressing which configurations produce clipping at 1.4 volts and which provide the clean signal up to 2.3 volts on the graph. The test is intrepreted by many 4700 owners that they may be (correctly or incorrectly) able to set their 4700 for "preamp only" and connect all Pre-out channels to an external amp with a sensitivity above 1.4 volts (up to 2.3 volts) without the 4700 clipping. Others believe that any external amp connected to the 4700 must have a sensitivity below 1.4 volts regardless of how the 4700 amps are assigned or what channels are being driven by an external amp. There are lots of intellegent people here, and not to hurt any egos or feelings but it is confusing and that in no way means anyone trying to understand is joking or not intellegent enough to understand.


The question is very simple. In which (amp assignments) configurations/connections to an outboard amp does the 4700 clip at 1.4 volts and in which configurations does the 4700 drive a clean signal to the 2.3 volts indicated on the graph in the test?

Example: In "pre-amp only" mode will the 4700 clip at 1.4 volts or will it drive a 5 or 7 channel signal of 2.3 volts to an amp?
Example: If an external amp is connected to the 4700 to power the L/R speakers and the 4700 internal amps are used to drive the additional surround channels, will the 4700 clip at 1.4 volts out or will it cleanly put out the 2.3 volts indicated on the graph in the test.

I hope that helps clarify the question and why it's important to many 4700 owners.
 
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Beershaun

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This has been noted dozens of times on this forum and others, but for some reason the facts seem to be lost on too many people, so: The internal power amplifiers are not turned-off in any of these preamp modes. The internal power amplifiers can be disconnected from the preamps.

In the preamp-only mode the Denon products are put into the ECO mode that reduces the power amplifier rail voltages. This in turn reduces the heat output from the power amplifiers.
I was trying to help answer the question about Amirs graph saying "amps off"and "amps on." Because people were confused about how to do that.
 

bigguyca

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I was trying to help answer the question about Amirs graph saying "amps off"and "amps on." Because people were confused about how to do that.


Unfortunately Amir used the incorrect terms in the graph. How does repeating the incorrect terms avoid confusion? If you want to be helpful then explain the situation correctly.

This amps on and off question is important to many people because they are worried about heat from AVR's, even in the ECO mode. For these people it is important that they understand how the equipment actually works. Individuals see posts such as yours and repeat, or act-on, the incorrect information.
 

peng

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So a logical extension of this is: If you have a Denon which precedes the 2020 models and doesn't have pre-amp only mode, you can effectively accomplish pre-amp only mode by turning on ECO mode?

ECO mode is an independent feature that you can turn on and off, or "auto" when not in preamp mode, but preamp mode apparently, and wisely, would turn it on.

If you have a Denon or Marantz from 2017 such as the AVR-X4400H, SR6012, SR7012 (may be even 2016 models as well, but not 100% sure on that one) then you don't have preamp mode but you can still use the amp assign trick to disconnect the front left and right channel internal power amps. So if you go that route, you can still use the internal amps for the surround and center channels and use the FL and FR pre outs with your external power amp.

I did a search and found the links, I posted the one for the 2017 model Denon, and Steve Dallas posted the one for the 2020 models.

For the 2017 (2018 models should be similar) models:
(5) Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated) | Page 58 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

For the 2020 models:
(5) Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated) | Page 66 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
 

Beershaun

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Unfortunately Amir used the incorrect terms in the graph. How does repeating the incorrect terms avoid confusion? If you want to be helpful then explain the situation correctly.

This amps on and off question is important to many people because they are worried about heat from AVR's, even in the ECO mode. For these people it is important that they understand how the equipment actually works. Individuals see posts such as yours and repeat, or act-on, the incorrect information.
If you read above, the question was about which mode would allow higher preamp voltage without clipping. So that's how it helps.
 
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