Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

[AllCourtGuy]

Sorry, that was a typo in my original post, it should have read that the AVR-X4700H is not available in the EU.

 

[peng]

Sorry, that was a typo in my original post, it should have read that the AVR-X4700H is not available in the EU.

The different is, the AVR has a FM/AM tuner, the AVC-X4700H has not included the tuner but otherwise they are the same.

 

[AllCourtGuy]

The different is, the AVR has a FM/AM tuner, the AVC-X4700H has not included the tuner but otherwise they are the same.

Thank you! That is what I wanted to hear!

 

[peng]

Thank you! That is what I wanted to hear!

You guys are lucky, I wish we have to option to buy the AVC for a few dollars less. I am sure many of us never used the tuner.

 

[thepiecesfit]

I'm looking at using this with my Outlaw Audio M2200's for LCR. The outlaw's have an input sensitivity of 1.7v. Does this mean they aren't compatible, or a good match with the pre-outs on this receiver? In the review the quality at 1.4v decreases and it's recommended to stay at 1.1v.

1.7v is using balanced XLR, 850mV using RCA, the 4700 doesn't have balanced connections.

 

[amper42]

You guys are lucky, I wish we have to option to buy the AVC for a few dollars less. I am sure many of us never used the tuner.

Actually, the guys that bought the Denon 4700 more than three weeks ago are the lucky ones. They saved $200. Maybe they can sell the 4700 now for a small loss or profit and move to a Yamaha RX-A3080?

 

[peng]

1.7v is using balanced XLR, 850mV using RCA, the 4700 doesn't have balanced connections.

Not really, with Outlaw, ATI, Monolith amps they don't always follow the 2:1 ratio. The M2200's input sensitivity is closer to 1.5 V even with RCA but that's good enough, and more than enough for most users I would think. Can't trust their published specs, that's sad but true! (I have one for the center channel, emailed them for answers 2/3 times, also did some measurements myself). ATI's even more confusing, I posted their datasheets on ASR before, showing the inconsistency, with those amps, if you want to be sure, you have to measure it yourself, or email their tech support (the real ones, like level 2 or whatever they are called) for a clear answer in writing, like I have done re the M2200. Even then, I didn't get a clear answer, but almost.

 

[Steve Dallas]

Actually, the guys that bought the Denon 4700 more than three weeks ago are the lucky ones. They saved $200. Maybe they can sell the 4700 now for a small loss or profit and move to a Yamaha RX-A3080?

Why would anyone want to do that? I traded my 3080 for a 4700 a couple months ago!

 

[amper42]

Why would anyone want to do that? I traded my 3080 for a 4700 a couple months ago!

I have the Denon 4700 but I like the higher quality DAC built into the RX-A3080, the XLR pre-outs for fronts, more powerful internal amps and lower operating heat of the Yamaha.

What features did the Denon 4700 offer you that the RX-A3080 lacked? Did you feel like the switch to Denon 4700 was worth it?
Thanks!

 

[fun]

I had been following the prices of the 4700H and 4500H on Amazon closely to hopefully see a deal. After the price increase of 4700H, it seems 4500H is selling like hot cake. Inventory of it was fine until last night when it said 20 left. As of this morning, they're all gone.

 

[amper42]

I had been following the prices of the 4700H and 4500H on Amazon closely to hopefully see a deal. After the price increase of 4700H, it seems 4500H is selling like hot cake. Inventory of it was fine until last night when it said 20 left. As of this morning, they're all gone.

That's funny. I bought the Denon 4500 in Feb. 2020 on Amazon for $899. Now they want $1349 for a used model on Amazon. lol
I wouldn't touch a used 4500 with a 10 foot pole. My 4500 died within 6 months of purchase. These receivers can't handle the impact that occurs during multiple shipping trips. Buy new or run away!

 

[fun]

That's funny. I bought the Denon 4500 in Feb. 2020 on Amazon for $899. Now they want $1349 for a used model on Amazon. lol
I wouldn't touch a used 4500 with a 10 foot pole. My 4500 died within 6 months of purchase. These receivers can't handle the impact that occurs during multiple shipping trips. Buy new or run away!

You're lucky. It's rare that electronics like receivers increase in price, particularly an outdated model like the 4500H. But now is not normal time

 

[Steve Dallas]

I have the Denon 4700 but I like the higher quality DAC built into the RX-A3080, the XLR pre-outs for fronts, more powerful internal amps and lower operating heat of the Yamaha.

What features did the Denon 4700 offer you that the RX-A3080 lacked? Did you feel like the switch to Denon 4700 was worth it?
Thanks!

The DAC quality difference is questionable. Yamaha implementations do not tend to measure well, although I have not seen measurements for the 3080. I run a Peachtree Nova300 to drive my front pair, and my room is small, so I don't need the additional power for my center and surrounds. My chosen amp does not have balanced inputs, so the XLRs were useless to me. Also, I could not find a way to turn off the front amps in the 3080, so they were always running.

The main thing is Audyssey is light years ahead of YPAO.

The 4700 does run hot, but it runs much cooler in preamp mode.

 

[amper42]

The DAC quality difference is questionable. Yamaha implementations do not tend to measure well, although I have not seen measurements for the 3080. I run a Peachtree Nova300 to drive my front pair, and my room is small, so I don't need the additional power for my center and surrounds. My chosen amp does not have balanced inputs, so the XLRs were useless to me. Also, I could not find a way to turn off the front amps in the 3080, so they were always running.

The main thing is Audyssey is light years ahead of YPAO.

The 4700 does run hot, but it runs much cooler in preamp mode.

I like pre-amp mode in the Denon 4700. With it engaged the energy usage of the 4700 drops to 46W no matter how loud or how many channels are playing. If the 4700 is in stereo mode at low volumes using internal amps it uses 120W+. Of course, any saved energy from pre-amp mode is eaten up by my Monolith 7x200.

I also like Auto-3D on the Denon 4700. It offers a nice option with height channels.

Did you have the opportunity to A/B the Denon 4700 against the Yamaha RX-A3080 for overall sound quality with your speakers?
Thanks!

 

[peng]

The DAC quality difference is questionable.

I was wondering about that too. If I remember right the better DAC, ES9026Pro is only used for the main 7 channels, and the better SINAD, and DR are for differential connections. For single ended, it should drop to only slightly better than the AK4458 in the X4700H, by 1 to 3 dB at the most I would think, based on the data sheets. The ESS DAC are also subject to the IMD hump too if I understand right. I think both have specs good enough to be not the bottleneck regardless.

 

[Steve Dallas]

I was wondering about that too. If I remember right the better DAC, ES9026Pro is only used for the main 7 channels, and the better SINAD, and DR are for differential connections. For single ended, it should drop to only slightly better than the AK4458 in the X4700H, by 1 to 3 dB at the most I would think, based on the data sheets. The ESS DAC are also subject to the IMD hump too if I understand right. I think both have specs good enough to be not the bottleneck regardless.

Right. We also know the chip specs are one thing, and the actual implementation is another thing. The performance of plenty of chips have been ruined by sloppy implementation, and the other Yamahas have not been impressive thus far.

Even though YPAO is little better than a joke, it does expose a nice 7 band PEQ per channel, with the opportunity to save up to 4 (?) EQ variations. I found that useful for manual correction, although I would much rather have Audyssey.

Did you have the opportunity to A/B the Denon 4700 against the Yamaha RX-A3080 for overall sound quality with your speakers?
Thanks!

Not in any scientific way. I heard them about an hour apart, and the main difference I heard was Audyssey, which is much better. Let's just say I did not rush to hook the 3080 back up. And as I said before, I do not need the extra power of the 3080, since my room is small, my fronts have a dedicated amp, and all speakers are decently efficient and crossed at 80Hz.

 

[thepiecesfit]

Not in any scientific way. I heard them about an hour apart, and the main difference I heard was Audyssey, which is much better. Let's just say I did not rush to hook the 3080 back up. And as I said before, I do not need the extra power of the 3080, since my room is small, my fronts have a dedicated amp, and all speakers are decently efficient and crossed at 80Hz.

Are you utilizing the pre-out on your Denon to the Nova 300 input without disconnecting the L+R? Just curious with the pre-out voltage max at 3.5v if you noticed any issues and what your distance to speakers and max volume level has been?

 

[bigguyca]

I was wondering about that too. If I remember right the better DAC, ES9026Pro is only used for the main 7 channels, and the better SINAD, and DR are for differential connections. For single ended, it should drop to only slightly better than the AK4458 in the X4700H, by 1 to 3 dB at the most I would think, based on the data sheets. The ESS DAC are also subject to the IMD hump too if I understand right. I think both have specs good enough to be not the bottleneck regardless.

A few thoughts on AVR's/AVP's

The ES9026Pro and most of the better ESS DAC's are current output DAC's and achieve best performance if used with opamp I/V converters. Yamaha uses the ESS DAC's in voltage output mode. Voltage output mode worsens the S/N ratio by 6dB to 8dB.

That said, ultimate performance of the ESS DAC IC's is limited by factors after the signal leaves the DAC IC such as the only average filter circuitry and opamps, and the performance level of the volume control. The opamps are as good or better than what D/M uses and the volume control is similar, but these components, plus added nonsense such as HDAM's, and other details are why AVR's and AVP's in general don't approach the level of two-channel DAC performance.

We pick on AVR's and AVP's here, but the requirements for a large number of channels, and balancing headroom between the digital and analog world, in an AVR really dictate that a multi-channel volume control (Cirrus Logic, NJR, Rohm, etc.) be used. That single component, even if it has good performance for such an product, will still mean performance is limited to worse than just taking the output from a DAC IC through high quality (more expensive) opamps.

It would be interesting if someone who actually knows how to design an AVR, instead of someone who just analyzes and comments on them like me, could develop "figures of merit" for distortion and noise using a couple different DAC's, typical 8-channel volume controls, modestly priced opamps and consumer level electronic design. Ideally of course there would be a couple different sets of figures of merit based on some cost criteria. This work would be to establish a benchmark for how good should an AVR/AVP be? Using two channel DAC's as benchmarks is fun, but a bit more work is required to establish a reasonable benchmark.

Eliminating the IC volume control could mean doing something similar to what RME seems (the following is guesswork) to do in its two channel DAC's. The DAC IC is used as the overall volume control, but gain is also switched in a couple steps of perhaps 6dB, by using relays to switch resistors around an opamp gain circuit. Very high quality opamps are likely used in the circuit plus a lot of design techniques to control noise. Such circuitry could be used in an AVR/AVP, but it would be expensive and the entire AVR/AVP would need to be carefully designed. RME also uses an external power supply. RME addresses the benefits of using the digital volume control in a DAC IC in its excellent manuals.

 

[Steve Dallas]

Are you utilizing the pre-out on your Denon to the Nova 300 input without disconnecting the L+R? Just curious with the pre-out voltage max at 3.5v if you noticed any issues and what your distance to speakers and max volume level has been?

The front amps are disconnected in the home theater preset. All amps are disconnected in the stereo preset. The Nova 300 is in HTB mode, which is designed for typical unbalanced AVR output voltages. No problems had. Distance to speakers is ~8'. Max volume is around 60 on the dial, which equates to average SPL in the low to mid 80s with peaks in the mid to high 90s (IIRC). There is plenty left on tap, should I want to damage my hearing.

BTW, I sent a Nova 300 to Amir to be tested. Much disappointment should be had soon!

 

[thepiecesfit]

The front amps are disconnected in the home theater preset. All amps are disconnected in the stereo preset. The Nova 300 is in HTB mode, which is designed for typical unbalanced AVR output voltages. No problems had. Distance to speakers is ~8'. Max volume is around 60 on the dial, which equates to average SPL in the low to mid 80s with peaks in the mid to high 90s (IIRC). There is plenty left on tap, should I want to damage my hearing.

BTW, I sent a Nova 300 to Amir to be tested. Much disappointment should be had soon!

Good to know. That calmed my concerns a bit about matching a Hypex 502 amp, that I've not received yet with my Denon X4400h and speakers Lsim 705's of the same sensitivity 88dB as your Revel F206's. Not to derail this thread too much. Looking forward to seeing that review!