Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

[amirm]

I think we can stop the review loop if the next couple of tests show the same thing they get.

 

[Daniel0]

I am not worried about failures, but longevity, as I want a >$1,000 AVR to last for at least 2 HDMI version changes.

You have to remember that the device only gets very hot if you play very loud multichannel audio. You won't be listening to Dolby Atmos Movies on reference level 24/7.
Most of the time it should run pretty cool, you won't be stressing it all the time.

I didn't hear about increased failures from them, remember there are competitors to Sound United that have devices which run even hotter and they are not total disasters.
People are just way to worried if its not cool enough to touch it.

 

[amirm]

You have to remember that the device only gets very hot if you play very loud multichannel audio.

I didn't do that and it still ran too warm for my comfort.

 

[cowsgomoo62]

I just purchased an AC Infinity AIRCOM S7 and it seems to work really well; would this be a recommended solve for heat issues?

 

[Vasr]

I just purchased an AC Infinity AIRCOM S7 and it seems to work really well; would this be a recommended solve for heat issues?

From my limited experience with Denons (especially if you have lower impedance or inefficient speakers), the AC Infinity Aircoms should be sold bundled with the units always. It could also be true for other brands of course.

The strange thing with the recent vintage Denon I had was that the the video processing part also seemed to contribute a lot to the heat, not just the amp sections. So using the video overlay or any up-scaling would generate non-trivial heat even if the audio was muted.

Ambient temperatures also seems to matter. These units seem to work fine in the air-conditioned homes who like it to keep it on the cool side or cold climates (just the exchange by convection seems to keep temps under control). But as ambient temperature rises towards 80F/25C, they seem to lose air exchange effectiveness and start to get heat spots inside. This is just anecdotal observation. Have done no controlled tests for this.

 

[Anterantz]

Para aquellos que están al tanto de las cosas, Amir debería tener mi x8500 hoy. No estoy seguro de en qué orden vendrán las reseñas ... pero tenemos un x3700, x6700 y x8500 en la lista, creo. Una vez que todo esto esté hecho, tendremos una excelente idea sobre el rendimiento de la línea Denon actual. Será interesante ver si el rendimiento supera el x3600, o si solo obtiene más canales (en el caso del x6700 / x8500), un poco más de potencia, más funciones. Y agreguen el JBL SDP-55, que creo que también está por llegar.

thanks friend I am anxious to see the results although seeing the topic I expect the worst ... if amir runs in custom mode and turns off all internal stages leaving only lyr to know how well it measures ... then you can change to preamplifier mode and run it with its external stage and check if the top of the range section is better than a mid-range like the 3600h

 

[zelig]

From what I have heard, overheating has been a perennial problem for Denon units and is one of the main reasons for warranty returns. It would be bewildering if they haven't solved the problem at this point. And yes, having to purchase 3rd party cooling solutions is a ludicrous state of affairs. Design the freaking units with adequate cooling in the first place!

 

[theory]

Isn’t a bit contributor to heat also all of the video processing in these avr units. I’m sure their cooling isn’t nearly as efficient as we have in our computers (probably mainly due to noise and passive cooling etc). Does the heat drop when these video processing features are disabled?

 

[valerianf]

Heat is a strange mandatory issue with current Denon/Marantz products.
During the last 40 year I used AVR from Marantz (when independent), Kenwood, Yamaha and none of them never got hot or needed a fan.
There is a design issue that needs to be raised by customers.

 

[da Choge]

I’m so anxious to read your 3700 report that I really wish you’d just leave Denon out of the loop.

And I am very anxious to read Amir's report on the Denon AVR-X6700H (as you are with the 3700). I think it's great that Amir is maintaining contacts with Sound United/Denon/Marantz; their alliance (albeit informal) tends to lend credibility and confidence regarding this forum's findings and reviews for newbies, outsiders, and critics [of this forum] -- and, possibly, has a bit of a chance in effecting some positive changes to the software, future design, and performance of some of these units in which we have interest. I'm trying to be patient, as well, to let these processes take their course. But, I do think (for me, at least) these times are, due to Amir's and all other contributors' postings to this forum, somewhat exciting and hopeful for this AV industry in "The Time of Covid" -- it's keeping me an avid reader, at least.

 

[peng]

I think we can stop the review loop if the next couple of tests show the same thing they get.

But specifically, if the next one is the 3700 and it performs within a couple dB in SINAD, FFT, IMD, 5 W, Max. output and similar in other tests to the 3600, then you can skip the loop too right, being that the two should be identical except the added 2020 features such as the preamp mode?

For the X8500H though, being their $4,000 flagship, then I would say if the results were not as good as the 4700, then I think it is better to send them the results regardless.

 

[peng]

I think we can stop the review loop if the next couple of tests show the same thing they get.

This is the first made in Japan Denon tested, so there may be some undue expectation. Can you just say the initial results are in the ball park or not?

 

[peng]

From what I have heard, overheating has been a perennial problem for Denon units and is one of the main reasons for warranty returns. It would be bewildering if they haven't solved the problem at this point. And yes, having to purchase 3rd party cooling solutions is a ludicrous state of affairs. Design the freaking units with adequate cooling in the first place!

Could it be a trade off between sound quality, beefier heatsinks vs fans, weight and cost? I included sound quality, because for class AB power amps, all else being equal, higher bias could lead to lower crossover distortions but also produce more heat idling. If you look carefully of the graphs below, you can see that the Denon's THD+N was below 0.03% even at down to 50 mW, versus the Yamaha's 0.22%. Note: The 3600 performance at 50 mW was similar but slightly better so there seems to be some consistency so far. The other Yamaha measured also showed relatively higher THD than Denon's in the "first watt" range.

The Arcam AVR390 equals but did not beat the Denons in the first watt range, but it's better all the way to rated output too, ranking top in THD+N currently, when measured in pure direct, analog input.

Many Yamaha users claimed theirs run cooler so I wonder if they used relatively lower bias.

Amir, as mentioned above, I noticed from some of your graphs that some amps, such as Denon's seemed to have relatively lower THD+N % than others in the first "watt" range. I understand crossover distortions is not entirely harmonics and it might include IMDs, but in theory, THD, being "total", bound to include the harmonics contributed by crossover distortions right, or wrong? Since crossover distortion does not vary much in amplitude even at very low output level, I supposed the THD in the first watt range could serve as an indicator of how bad, or good crossover distortions may be? I guess if I am wrong in one, I will be wrong in both guesses.

Ref links:
http://www.lindos.co.uk/test_and_measurement/SOURCE=Articles/SOURCE=Articles|VIEW=full|id=5 (3rd paragraph)
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/131424519-amplifier-crossover-distortion#:~:text=Most audio power amplifiers suffer,the dominant source of distortion

And if I am all wrong, do you have a way to measure crossover distortions? I have never seen it measured in any review so far. Benchmark made an issue of it, yet they did not specify it for the AHB2 either, perhaps they figure the THD and IMD is so low from 50 mW to rated output, so there is no need...

 

[KC-Narnia]

I have made a few measurements on the 6700 and sent them to Japan before I continue with the rest. So I will probably switch to testing the 3700 unless an answer comes back quick on that. The throughput is extremely slow now on Denon products due to this "review" loop.

I hope it gets a good review (fingers crossed). I'm getting to know mine better and I am falling a little in love with it already.

 

[amirm]

This is the first made in Japan Denon tested, so there may be some undue expectation. Can you just say the initial results are in the ball park or not?

Not unfortunately.

 

[zelig]

Not unfortunately.

Sigh! There's always next year I guess.

 

[Bentley]

Not unfortunately.

Still having all kinds of trouble with mine only way I can get it to sound good is in preamp mode

 

[Fillius]

Still having all kinds of trouble with mine only way I can get it to sound good is in preamp mode

I've been having trouble with mine too. I'm not getting much out of my sub. I tried enabling pre-amp mode and it didn't help.

Audessey set its level to -5dB, to get a reasonable response from it I've had to change it to 0dB, add +5dB to the Audessey curve and enable Dynamic EQ.

I'm also getting mains hum from the front left speaker.

 

[Dj7675]

I've been having trouble with mine too. I'm not getting much out of my sub. I tried enabling pre-amp mode and it didn't help.

Audessey set its level to -5dB, to get a reasonable response from it I've had to change it to 0dB, add +5dB to the Audessey curve and enable Dynamic EQ.

I'm also getting mains hum from the front left speaker.

Are you able to take post Audyssey measurements in REW To verify what is going on? Maybe a center plus sub using moving microphone RTA measurement or an average of 4 -5 measurements of you listening position? It’s the only way I have found when something isn’t right.

 

[Bentley]

I've been having trouble with mine too. I'm not getting much out of my sub. I tried enabling pre-amp mode and it didn't help.

Audessey set its level to -5dB, to get a reasonable response from it I've had to change it to 0dB, add +5dB to the Audessey curve and enable Dynamic EQ.

I'm also getting mains hum from the front

I've been having trouble with mine too. I'm not getting much out of my sub. I tried enabling pre-amp mode and it didn't help.

Audessey set its level to -5dB, to get a reasonable response from it I've had to change it to 0dB, add +5dB to the Audessey curve and enable Dynamic EQ.

I'm also getting mains hum from the front left speaker.

Are you running external a amplifier