Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

[thepiecesfit]

It's a shame that AudioHolics has gone on an anti ASR attack since the start of this issue. Few hours ago they posted on YouTube blaming poor test methodology and have since edited the post to give some credit to the testing being done here. I don't know how to link to the post so here is a screencap. My gripe with them is they were quick to judge without having done any measurements of their own.

 

[Thomas savage]

It's a shame that AudioHolics has gone on an anti ASR attack since the start of this issue. Few hours ago they posted on YouTube blaming poor test methodology and have since edited the post to give some credit to the testing being done here. I don't know how to link to the post so here is a screencap. My gripe with them is they were quick to judge without having done any measurements of their own.

I think they are just doing whatever they can to create noise and get hits off the back of all this .

It's a shame but that's the way things go when your monetised like they are.

 

[zelig]

I asked it before but I'll ask it again because IMO it's an important question...

How can @amirm make an unqualified recommendation for a receiver that has a known issue that will adversely affect the sound quality for many owners? Either I'm wrong in assuming that many owners would be affected, or/and the issue is not serious enough to not recommend the receiver. I think the initial review rules out the latter.

In addition, is the assumption that this can and will be fixed by a firmware update a valid one? This is an important question to be answered for any current or potential owners of this unit, and maybe the whole product line. I myself have an order in for an X3700H and I have 5.1 speakers so I have a dog in this fight.

 

[amirm]

Been waiting for the 6014 review for a while now!

I finished measuring the 6014 last night. It was huge amount of work with all that I test these days on AVRs. I sent the results to D&M folks to get their feedback. Depending on what they say, it could be as quick as tomorrow or days from now. Either way the owner wants the unit sent back so I will have to publish what I have.

 

[Vasr]

Do we know definitively yet whether the 6 other channels were silent?

And also if bitstreamed audio has this issue? For instance, a Dolby TrueHD or DTS Master Audio 7.1 track downmixed into 5.1.

As far as I can tell, the issue was only present when sending 8 channel PCM from a Windows machine to the Denon to output as 2.0.

I'm also not clear if the Denon was set up as 7.1 but 'Pure Direct' forced the down mapping to 2.0. Or if the Denon only had 2.0 speakers configured.

Excellent. This is asking the right questions. The quick answer is the limited (as practical) testing that ASR does exposed a symptom of the problem but isn't sufficient to determine the entire scope of the problem to say where it would or would not affect.

We really don't know the root cause of the problem to confidently predict the scope of where the problems might manifest. It could be more than the scenario that was in the test or very limited. Denon would need to do a far more comprehensive set of tests to isolate the problem that is beyond the scope of ASR.

Bottom Line:
It would be impractical for ASR to test all of the possible combinations to narrow the problem down and establish the scope of the problem. Denon would need to do so and provide a fix. But if they are not going to be transparent about it, then consumers (outside of the fanbois club) would have a dilemma.

1. Is there a firmware fix to this? Not all firmware can be updated. For example, if the root cause is an issue with the upstream HDMI receiver in processing the channels as received as part of the 2.1 protocol (or there is a hardware issue), that may not be fixable by firmware update but might require a card swap (I believe NAD did this for one of their cards).

2. Is Denon going to fix this for future units but let it slide through for current units sold if they think it is inaudible to most if not all even with the problem? Would one have a philosophical objection to this approach?

Personally, if I was looking for an AVR and this was in contention, I would skip or hold off until there was an explicit firmware update that even hinted at a correction related to this issue and not purchase (at this price level) with that cloud hanging over it. But that is just me, not trying to encourage or discourage others.

Technical discussion for the so-inclined:
A very high-level logical flow of the processing would be

Receive HDMI protocol data and split into up to 8 streams of data -> Process data and meta headers to check for encoding and decode into appropriate number of PCM streams (1-16) -> DSP Processing for up/downmixing -> Muting of channels (speakers/pre-out) set as not in use. I assume that what channels comes out of pre-outs is exactly what would come out of the speakers and so they are both muted the same way for unused channels.

I have left out additional steps that may happen such as artificial synthesis of surround data to create additional channels when not part of the original content (the different DSP synthesized surround modes).

The problem could be in any one of those steps consistent with what has been observed. But the scope of the problem where it could affect not just the L and R but also other channels has not been established and not practical to do so for ASR.

All we know is that if the data is received as 2+ channel PCM (not any encoded streams) and we force a down-mix to 2 channels, there is noise introduced in those channels. We also know that if it receives just two streams (of PCM), it does not show the symptoms.

We don't know if there is noise introduced in the other channels in that scenario but muted downstream (it could be muted to the amp but not the pre-outs or to both etc).

If the bug is in HDMI receiver near the ports where it introduces spurious data into the other channels as received, it could have implications in many more cases (or not). Whether those would be audible or just show up in measurements is a different question.

If the data is detected as two channel bitstream encoded (say EAC3 or DTS 5.1), then the other channels could be ignored even if corrupted and the streams processed correctly with downmixing. But show up in all PCM processing where there could be noise in all channels (but potentially muted).

If the corrupted data in other channels affects the determination of the encoded stream (say 2+ channel encoded 5.1.4), it could impact the "cleanliness" of what comes out of any of those channels with or without down-mixing (whether audible or not).

If the problem is in the determination of whether the channels are PCM or a bit stream encoding, then there could be issues even when encoded bit stream is sent (although this is likely to have far more audible impact than some additional noise).

If the problem is in the down-mixing algorithm, then the problem would manifest even in encoded streams sent to the unit and beyond HDMI (for example DTS 5.1 sent through the optical to a 2.1 or less speaker configuration).

 

[amirm]

I think this is not a fair response. No word about the problem @amirm found which lets it look as if his measurements were wrong.

I have personal commitments from my contacts in the company that they will investigate this. So let's not lose hope yet. Until a fix is provided or an explanation thereof, I will point out this issue in my future reviews. Indeed the Marantz SR6104 suffers from the same bug and that will be noted in my review.

 

[amirm]

It's a shame that AudioHolics has gone on an anti ASR attack since the start of this issue. Few hours ago they posted on YouTube blaming poor test methodology and have since edited the post to give some credit to the testing being done here. I don't know how to link to the post so here is a screencap. My gripe with them is they were quick to judge without having done any measurements of their own.

Manufacturer review is not "peer review." They are not my peers who are independent of the outcome. Don't know why they are abusing this term especially when reviewers often do this to keep manufacturers on their good side, not for any "peer review" value.

 

[peng]

I have personal commitments from my contacts in the company that they will investigate this. So let's not lose hope yet. Until a fix is provided or an explanation thereof, I will point out this issue in my future reviews. Indeed the Marantz SR6104 suffers from the same bug and that will be noted in my review.

Haha, as I always suspect, D = M = D = M +/- HDAM, slow roll vs fast DAC filters, the legacy 7.1 analog inputs and gold plated RCA connectors. Other then that they are non identical twin sisters.

 

[tecnogadget]

Indeed the Marantz SR6104 suffers from the same bug and that will be noted in my review.

Ohh lord...the ancient civilization had to put up with all of this:

1. Water to Blood: Ex. 7:14–24
2. Frogs: Ex. 7:25–8:15
3. Lice or gnats: Ex. 8:16–19
4. Wild animals or flies: Ex. 8:20–32
5. Pestilence of livestock: Ex. 9:1–7
6. Boils: Ex. 9:8–12
7. Thunderstorm of hail and fire: Ex. 9:13–35
8. Locusts: Ex. 10:1–20
9. Darkness for three days: Ex. 10:21–29
10. Death of firstborn: Ex. 11:1–12:36

Now it's 2020 and we are facing:
1. COVID-19
2. HDMI bugs everywhere

What did human kind to deserve this ?? Is the future of AVR's ever getting that "Stairway to Heaven" ??

 

[Castortroy3]

I finished measuring the 6014 last night. It was huge amount of work with all that I test these days on AVRs. I sent the results to D&M folks to get their feedback. Depending on what they say, it could be as quick as tomorrow or days from now. Either way the owner wants the unit sent back so I will have to publish what I have.

This can't be good news for the 6014. I'm so excited!!!

 

[Dj7675]

I finished measuring the 6014 last night. It was huge amount of work with all that I test these days on AVRs. I sent the results to D&M folks to get their feedback. Depending on what they say, it could be as quick as tomorrow or days from now. Either way the owner wants the unit sent back so I will have to publish what I have.

ASR has really become something special to the audio community..
-Quantity of bench tests of a variety of products
-Quality of bench tests
-A way to compare products via SINAD. While it certainly isn't meant to tell you everything it does provide an nice snapshot of the device. Before ASR, I don't think I ever heard anyone talking about SINAD (vs THD or THD+Noise). It is much more meaningful to me to see a whole number instead of .xxx.
-Addition of speaker measurements (arguable the most important)
-Willingness to investigate issues and work with manufacturers to find the problem
-Will share his project files so they can be repeated elsewhere
-Willingness to measure receivers/processors... I can't imagine the time and effort it takes to measure these. The number of hours on the Denon 4700 between the measurements and working with Denon to track down the issue must have been a bunch
All done on his own dime and time with some help from members. For most/many coming here... no cost and also no advertisers.
Sometimes it is important to reflect on the larger picture on what has been created here. I very much appreciate all of your time and work. I still can't believe that most of the time get out a review every day or 2.
Obligatory PSA... if you find this site valuable or important, consider donating to help offset some of the costs.

 

[BsdKurt]

It's a shame that AudioHolics has gone on an anti ASR attack since the start of this issue. Few hours ago they posted on YouTube blaming poor test methodology and have since edited the post to give some credit to the testing being done here. I don't know how to link to the post so here is a screencap. My gripe with them is they were quick to judge without having done any measurements of their own.

Yea, it is sad that $$$ has driven Gene to lie and mischaracterize the initial testing. I’m referring to this part, “...ASR‘s test setup was faulty...”.

The way I see it was that the test setup found a down mixing bug that resulted in poor sound quality in the 2020 Denon/Marantz lineup when configured with < 7.1 channels. He then goes on to praise himself and Denon without mention of the problem. I just lost a lot of respect for Gene.

 

[SimpleTheater]

The way I see it was that the test setup found a down mixing bug that resulted in poor sound quality in the 2020 Denon/Marantz lineup when configured with < 7.1 channels. He then goes on to praise himself and Denon without mention of the problem. I just lost a lot of respect for Gene.

I lost a ton of respect for Gene when a decade ago on the AVS forum he argued with me that All Channels Driven wasn't a valid test. Why? Because he was schilling Yamaha at the time and they did poorly on the test (yes, I own a Yamaha now, because other companies like NAD, Denon and others were doing very well in ACD tests, Yamaha has since improved greatly). Gene has since come around, probably because the companies that he supports are now doing well in those tests.

FYI: If anyone thinks it doesn't matter, go buy a Sherwood RD-7503, a multi-channel receiver capable of 100 watts mono, 70 watts stereo and if running all 7 channels simultaneously 5 watts. That's not a typo. Specs here.

 

[Anterantz]

[QUOTE = "amirm, publicación: 450635, miembro: 2"] Hola Anternatz. Todavía no he probado el 8500.

2 canales solo está bien si configura el AVR para tener 8 altavoces. Si solo tiene 2 altavoces, entonces tendrán más ruido. [/ CITA]


hello amir thanks for answering, because you leave me stupefied! The Reason to calibrate only in 2 channels is to have two presets, one for cinema and the other for music ... as you know in the 8500 you can turn off the stages that you don't use and I thought that by turning all of them off and leaving only two channels for stereo it would be even more clean the sign and so it seems to me! It is true that the volume did not pass 65 / 70db on the absolute scale ... so do you think that using the pc in 2ch mode and using the preset 2.1 with all the amplification that I do not use turned off is not the right thing to do? Regards

 

[Gedeon]

Just tested if there are volume level changes among different HEOS sources in my SR6012.

All tracks l tested sound the same level. At least the tracks I've been checking. From Amazon Music, from Tidal, and from a DLNA local server.

 

[Anterantz]

[QUOTE = "Dj7675, post: 450849, miembro: 5547"] Estoy buscando enviar mi 8500 a Amir alrededor del 24 de julio. [/ QUOTE]


I because I am from Spain otherwise I would be at the house of Amir my 8500 I am curious ... thank you for offering your denon

 

[amirm]

so do you think that using the pc in 2ch mode and using the preset 2.1 with all the amplification that I do not use turned off is not the right thing to do? Regards

Hello Anterantz. I have not tested the 8500 so don't know. For the Denon products I have tested, you should not use HDMI in 2 channel mode, and play 2.1. You get a lot more noise that way. You can use S/PDIF or Toslink to avoid this. Or if you know how, by forcing your source device to operate in 2-channel mode in HDMI.

 

[Dj7675]

[QUOTE = "Dj7675, post: 450849, miembro: 5547"] Estoy buscando enviar mi 8500 a Amir alrededor del 24 de julio. [/ QUOTE]


I because I am from Spain otherwise I would be at the house of Amir my 8500 I am curious ... thank you for offering your denon

Very welcome. I am curious as well. I have sent in several items: Emotiva XMC-1, NAD T758V3, Lyngdorf TDAI-3400. All of them have been very interesting. I encourage owners of interesting gear to send their gear in for testing. It is fun and interesting to see how things measure.

 

[Vasr]

Yea, it is sad that $$$ has driven Gene to lie and mischaracterize the initial testing. I’m referring to this part, “...ASR‘s test setup was faulty...”.

The way I see it was that the test setup found a down mixing bug that resulted in poor sound quality in the 2020 Denon/Marantz lineup when configured with < 7.1 channels. He then goes on to praise himself and Denon without mention of the problem. I just lost a lot of respect for Gene.

You are right but ASR is winning on facts and losing on narrative because of what Denon and Genes of the world frame it as.

I do not mean the following as a criticism of @amirm in any way and I think I understand why he soft-pedaled in the updated review (this was before the Denon public statement came out). Please do not knee-jerk and start throwing flames because of the following honest feedback which is meant to encourage better communication.

I think that the form and substance of his updated review reinforces the Gene narrative more than it supports the reality. You need to read some 3-4 paragraphs of a lot of information in the section titled "Reason for Second Review" and then read a few pages of the comments after I posted "Wait a minute..." to get that a problem exists in this unit that Denon should fix. The takeaway for anyone reading the updated review at a level most people understand would be that the measurement process was faulty and even Gene could be excused for framing it that way after reading just the updated review even if he was totally unbiased..

Here is how one reading it casually would interpret it as wading through the many paragraphs in the updated review (takeaway in italics)

"The original review measurements showed significant degradation of AVR's performance when measured using HDMI input as opposed to Toslink input... blah, blah, blah, ... (ok, so the unit is bad?)

Subsequent to the review, Denon Engineering contacted me and shared measurements with me which did not at all show the problem I was seeing. They ran the same measurements on the Denon AVR-X3600 (last generation model) that showed similar or same performance. Their work was first class and I could not find any fault with their methodology. blah, blah, blah, blah,... (Good Denon)

I realized that in my testing I was setting the AVR for 2-channel configuration with Front right and left speakers set to Large, and all other channels configured as "None." Blah, blah, blah.... Well, turned out this was the problem!, blah, blah, blah... (Bad Amir)

Fortunately the fix was simple. I simply turned on all the speakers for 7.1 configuration while still continuing to feed the AVR the same way I was before. blah, blah, blah.... (I hope Amir has learned his lesson and will not jump to conclusions in the future).

Can anyone honestly say that this write-up shows the unit has an unresolved problem and that the updated review does not support Gene's framing when read at an average readers' level of comprehension? The ambiguities there is what is killing it.

I am not going to tell Amir what he should do but if I was in his shoes and there was a narrative out there smearing ASR and casting doubt on the process, I would put a sticky at the top of the forums, at the top of the review and in the home page of ASR with a simple one or two paragraph summary of the situation. Something like

In the original review of for the x4700h, my measurements displayed a degradation of performance with a HDMI input that was not present in the previous generation x3600h. I recommended against this unit based on those measurements. Subsequently, I was contacted by Denon staff that worked with me cordially to explore this measurement which was at odds with their own measurements. After spending a few days in productive collaboration, we have arrived at an explanation for both sets of measurements and a good understanding of the condition under which the unit shows degraded performance.

There is an issue with the unit which subsequently I have discovered to be present in other 2020 model Marantz and Denon models as well. If the unit is set up with less number of speakers (e.g., 2.1) than the number of channels of streams coming in as perceived by the unit (e.g., 7.1), the quality of the signal output in main channels L and R is degraded just as the original measurements showed. This is the default testing setting in my measurement setup to measures two channels and is used across all previous equipment tested so far including the x3600h. Denon engineers have promised to look at this issue and I expect they will provide a fix as suitable in the near future as this setup reflects possible scenarios of actual use and may have undesirable audible effects in such use.

The problem does not arise if the unit is configured with all speakers as being in use or the input comes in as stereo over HDMI not as a multi-channel signal. The measurements that Denon have published model one of these configurations and therefore does not expose the degradation that occurs. Thsi explains the discrepancy. They will be able to reproduce the problem from the information I have provided them about my setup which reflects some real scenarios of use by customers and allow them to determine the root cause to fix it.

I thank the Denon team for working with me diligently to come to the bottom of this issue quickly. I look forward to working with them in the future for providing an unbiased set of measurements of their units to general public that should also be useful to Denon to showcase their design strengths.

One does not need to be very confrontational or very deferential as the only choices to stand up for one's conviction and the truth.

 

[davidc]

I just spent an hour catching up on this thread. It at times has gone way off topic. Seems their is more talk about the 3600 and 3700 than the 4700. I'm also surprised nobody has posted a single user review that I could find on the 4700 in the new thread since Denon's reply.

I was one of the posters in the old thread that had a 4700 and hadn't opened it yet. I decided to install it a few days before Denons response. I bought it with the intention to use it as a pre-amp only. It gave me everything I needed in an 7.2.4 pre-amp for less than half the price of units that measured nowhere near as well, and those units didn't have half the features of the Denon. I have it mated to a Sunfire 7 X 400 WPC amp as well as a Sunfire 7 X 200 WPC amp. I am running Canton Ventos towers for the mains, a Ventos center, and Ventos bookshelves for the sides and rears. I haven't made a decision on my Atmos channel in-ceiling speakers yet.

I am currently only running the system in 2.1. I am waiting for my electrician to come and fish wires for the other 8 channels plus an extra for voice of god. So far I am extremely impressed with the unit in pre-amp mode when listening to music through Roon.

There are some quirks that I have found:

1) Unfortunately Denon uses airplay to stream music to the 4700 via Roon. All my music is down-sampled to 44.1/16. This is all airplay can handle. The Heos app does the same. Does anyone know if I can use Ethernet with Roon to stream my music files at their true resolution without re-sampling?

2) Volume range seems perfectly fine when streaming music. I usually listen between 40-50 on the volume. When I watch TV I have to listen around 75 on the volume and it's not as loud as listening to music at 40-50. TV signal comes through the receiver on the newest HD Comcast box. I could find no settings for gain in the Comcast box. This is extremely annoying. Does anyone have any ideas?

3) There are some other issues with Denon's Roon integration that I'll post when I have time. Nothing that can't be fixed with firmware. I will post later. I don't want those issues to add confusion to this post.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Love this forum

A Carver man! Welcome. I use a PM-1.5a to drive my main channels.