• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details.

Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

da Choge

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 31, 2018
Messages
117
Likes
124
Location
DFW
Can't remember now, but with "Big Trouble in Little China", was it Lo Wang or Lo Han? In any case I like your new avatar, even if it will only exist for one or two posts. And I am looking forward to the remake of "Big Trouble in Little China" very much -- they better not screw it up (even if, in these times, it will be construed as very "politically incorrect").

Anywhose, back on-topic . . . I was very concerned with this Denon AVR's (and hence Marantz's) reported very limited 1.1/1.4Vrms clean preout outputs until I remembered my intention wasn't ever to chain these AVRs directly to an amplifier. I always intended on using an integrated stereo preamp between them and my speakers for stereo music listening. So, for my bedroom (Marantz SR6014) and living room (right now, Marantz SR7012), the plan, at present, has always been to integrate a Parasound Halo HINT6 (bedroom) and an Anthem STR Integrated (living room) into their respective chains for stereo listening. Both setups currently use a separate stereo DAC, so even though these brands have their own DACs, I probably would never use them. But when I get these integrated stereo amps into their respective setups, I will never have to worry about this down-mixing issue when listening to stereo music (but, multichannel music listening still seems to remain problematic). However, I still hope Denon (and Marantz, which will probably show up with the same issue), can and will mitigate, if not fix, this issue with a firmware upgrade. However, I think Amir could be correct (I'm only an enthusiast and NOT an engineer) when he says that doing all this down-mixing and redirection of multiple channel sources into a lesser setup is a problematic issue. But, I still hope it can be done, and done adequately. Today's multiple channel AVRs (audio and video) have a whole lot of stuff to deal with and I never thought holding them to the same standards as a simple stereo DAC was exactly congruent or fair. Still, we all want the best that good engineering can do.

Looking very much forward to a review of the Marantz SR6014 -- you're going to think I'm crazy with what I want to do with this unit, if I decide to keep it in my setup.
 
Last edited:

Ucftechguru

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
54
Likes
45
Most likely yes as the 3700 is not here yet.
I can’t wait for the SR6014 review. I bought one in anticipation that it performs similar to the 3600 and even this 4700. I have a Denon 3300 AVR now and am a big Denon fanboy so hoping it performs well.
 

Ucftechguru

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
54
Likes
45
ok, now if only Denon could make disconnectable the center channel in addition to R+L. Come on Denon, center channel is the most important one.

So true! I have a 4 channel amp right now so if I want premiere sound, I’ll need to buy another amp and disconnect all the amp channels. However, if Denon made the center channel disconnectable it would solve that issue and allow us all to save some money for future Denon/Marantz AVR upgrades!
 

Ralf Stocker

Active Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2019
Messages
102
Likes
61
I don't know what should be better now? The THD / noise values are simply not at HiFi level. Such large devices have nothing to do with hi-fi. There are simply too many parts, components installed and there is always uncontrollable radiation.
 

peng

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
2,266
Likes
1,802
I use 2125v2 (bridged) for my center channel. I reduced the gain of my 2125v2 to match the gain of my external amp for L/R channels and stay close to my Denon's internal amps' gain. You know if your 2125v2's gain is too high if Denon sets the level for the associated channel too low compared to the rest. You can verify this by going to the channel levels window after running Audyssey.

Let me know if this answers your question or if I need to elaborate further.

If I understand right he has a simpler application than yours because he is using it for the left/right channels. The gain of the Denon internal amps is 29 dB, same as the Parasound 2125V2. So setting the gain knobs to maximum will make things simple. The level trims after auto setup will likely be different regardless because of the difference in speaker sensitivities and their placements.
 

Ucftechguru

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
54
Likes
45
On the off chance they're reading: thank you Denon. I look forward to buying many more Denon receivers in the years to come. It's proof that not only are the 3600 and 4500 excellent products, but that the company really does care about producing good respectable performance in their products and does take engineering and measurements seriously.

But do we really know if the 4500 is an excellent product? It hasn’t been tested on ASR as far as I know right? The 3600 is excellent and 4700 pretty excellent as well.
 

peng

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
2,266
Likes
1,802
I don't know what should be better now? The THD / noise values are simply not at HiFi level. Such large devices have nothing to do with hi-fi. There are simply too many parts, components installed and there is always uncontrollable radiation.

What would you consider "..at HiFi level.."? And are you referring to the desktop DACs? If you mean separate preamps and power amps, can you please give some examples picked from those measured by ASR that shows such "FiFi" level? I am just curious.
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
83
Likes
123
ok, now if only Denon could make disconnectable the center channel in addition to R+L. Come on Denon, center channel is the most important one.
Is the downgrade from using a non-disconnected pre-out vs a disconnected pre-out really that noticeable?
 

da Choge

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 31, 2018
Messages
117
Likes
124
Location
DFW
All the new big brand AVR models seem to be dropping their 7.1 analog multichannel inputs (which I use for multichannel music). That's why I decided to get the 2019 Marantz SR6014 (at a great bargain). Marantz's upper models (beyond the SR6014) aren't scheduled to come out for another year, and I don't know if they will retain any ability to do a 7.1 analog multichannel input (at best, Marantz's premier unit might, but I think that's even questionable). If you already haven't noticed, even Anthem's top-of-the-line AVR and AVP no longer have a 7.1 multichannel input (and both are slightly dated units). I know there is always HDMI, but isn't that what some of our concerns are about in this thread?
 

Ucftechguru

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
54
Likes
45
Can't remember now, but with "Big Trouble in Little China", was it Lo Wang or Lo Han? In any case I like your new avatar, even if it will only exist for one or two posts. And I am looking forward to the remake of "Big Trouble in Little China" very much -- they better not screw it up (even if, in these times, it will be construed as very "politically incorrect").

Anywhose, back on-topic . . . I was very concerned with this Denon AVR's (and hence Marantz's) reported very limited 1.1/1.4Vrms clean preout outputs until I remembered my intention wasn't ever to chain these AVRs directly to an amplifier. I always intended on using an integrated stereo preamp between them and my speakers for stereo music listening. So, for my bedroom (Marantz SR6014) and living room (right now, Marantz SR7012), the plan, at present, has always been to integrate a Parasound Halo HINT6 (bedroom) and an Anthem STR Integrated (living room) into their respective chains for stereo listening. Both setups currently use a separate stereo DAC, so even though these brands have their own DACs, I probably would never use them. But when I get these integrated stereo amps into their respective setups, I will never have to worry about this down-mixing issue when listening to stereo music (but, multichannel music listening still seems to remain problematic). However, I still hope Denon (and Marantz, which will probably show up with the same issue), can and will mitigate, if not fix, this issue with a firmware upgrade. However, I think Amir could be correct (I'm only an enthusiast and NOT an engineer) when he says that doing all this down-mixing and redirection of multiple channel sources into a lesser setup is a problematic issue. But, I still hope it can be done, and done adequately. Today's multiple channel AVRs (audio and video) have a whole lot of stuff to deal with and I never thought holding them to the same standards as a simple stereo DAC was exactly congruent or fair. Still, we all want the best that good engineering can do.

Looking very much forward to a review of the Marantz SR6014 -- you're going to think I'm crazy with what I want to do with this unit, if I decide to keep it in my setup.

Do tell! What are you planning to do with the SR6014? It may give me ideas.
 

peng

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
2,266
Likes
1,802
Can't remember now, but with "Big Trouble in Little China", was it Lo Wang or Lo Han? In any case I like your new avatar, even if it will only exist for one or two posts. And I am looking forward to the remake of "Big Trouble in Little China" very much -- they better not screw it up (even if, in these times, it will be construed as very "politically incorrect").

Anywhose, back on-topic . . . I was very concerned with this Denon AVR's (and hence Marantz's) reported very limited 1.1/1.4Vrms clean preout outputs until I remembered my intention wasn't ever to chain these AVRs directly to an amplifier. I always intended on using an integrated stereo preamp between them and my speakers for stereo music listening. So, for my bedroom (Marantz SR6014) and living room (right now, Marantz SR7012), the plan, at present, has always been to integrate a Parasound Halo HINT6 (bedroom) and an Anthem STR Integrated (living room) into their respective chains for stereo listening. Both setups currently use a separate stereo DAC, so even though these brands have their own DACs, I probably would never use them. But when I get these integrated stereo amps into their respective setups, I will never have to worry about this down-mixing issue when listening to stereo music (but, multichannel music listening still seems to remain problematic). However, I still hope Denon (and Marantz, which will probably show up with the same issue), can and will mitigate, if not fix, this issue with a firmware upgrade. However, I think Amir could be correct (I'm only an enthusiast and NOT an engineer) when he says that doing all this down-mixing and redirection of multiple channel sources into a lesser setup is a problematic issue. But, I still hope it can be done, and done adequately. Today's multiple channel AVRs (audio and video) have a whole lot of stuff to deal with and I never thought holding them to the same standards as a simple stereo DAC was exactly congruent or fair. Still, we all want the best that good engineering can do.

Looking very much forward to a review of the Marantz SR6014 -- you're going to think I'm crazy with what I want to do with this unit, if I decide to keep it in my setup.

That so called downmixing issue with this Denon's HDMI input is a non issue if you do not configure your upstream device's hdmi to output 7.1 when the AVR is configured for only 2 channels. Yes that bug needs to be fixed, because some people may run into it as an issue if they are not aware of the "bug". If you have an Anthem STR integrated amp for a separate two channel system that is great, but you seem to be saying that you want to "integrate" it with the AVR, that's puzzling and I have no idea what do you mean by that, can you elaborate?

I would think for best results, keep them as two separate system. Unless you mean using some sort of HT bypass so that for two channel listening you bypass the Denon altogether?
 

peng

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
2,266
Likes
1,802
But do we really know if the 4500 is an excellent product? It hasn’t been tested on ASR as far as I know right? The 3600 is excellent and 4700 pretty excellent as well.

The power supply, preamp/DAC and the power amp sections are the same so it is a safe bet that the 3600, 4500 and 4700 measurements will be very similar. In fact the 3500's is also similar, but at lower output levels. The SR6014's measurements will be similar to that of the AV7705, that's my prediction, and we'll see, I would love to be wrong, that is, the SR6014 will measure better than the 7705 but that's wishful thinking.
 

Beershaun

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 3, 2019
Messages
1,196
Likes
1,170
What do people think would be some configurations that would improve the measured performance of this AVR for home theater and 2ch music performance? If you look at Amir's amplifier measurement index, what are some Amps that would pair with this to improve the measured quality over using it as all-in-one? anyone have some recommendations on a 2channel external configuration or 11 channel external configuration? What would be the expected measured improvements over the "stock" configuration?
 

Promit

Active Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2020
Messages
187
Likes
486
But do we really know if the 4500 is an excellent product? It hasn’t been tested on ASR as far as I know right? The 3600 is excellent and 4700 pretty excellent as well.
I meant 4700, head was elsewhere.
 

Castortroy3

Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2020
Messages
33
Likes
18
It's no secret why Denon is responsive and acknowelging Amirm'seview . The 3600H was a forum darling and flew off the shelves last year. Having Amir's endorsement is good for business. I am new to the hobby and all I read about was the 3600H and frankly had to have it but they were out of Stock weeks before the 3700H came out. That's gotta mean good business for Denon. I have the 3700H unopen in the house and am eagerly waitning Amirm's review.

Thanks for your knowledge and research and while I do get lost in some of the technical. I find it very helpful you are strearing us to scientifically better gear.
 
Last edited:

SplitTime

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 31, 2018
Messages
62
Likes
80
What do people think would be some configurations that would improve the measured performance of this AVR for home theater and 2ch music performance? If you look at Amir's amplifier measurement index, what are some Amps that would pair with this to improve the measured quality over using it as all-in-one? anyone have some recommendations on a 2channel external configuration or 11 channel external configuration? What would be the expected measured improvements over the "stock" configuration?

Completely bypass the AVR for 2ch stereo, but feed L & R into it from your AVR.

Here is what I do:
Benchmark Media stereo chain: DAC3-B --> HPA4 --> 2x AHB2
The HPA4 has two XLR inputs and two RCA inputs:
* Feed one XLR input from the DAC3-B -- for USB stereo playback of mostly DSD files, but it handles any format...
* Feed the other XLR input from an OPPO BD105-D -- for stereo SACD or Blu-ray audio disc playback (things not ripped to digital)...
* Feed one RCA input (stereo) from the pre-out of an AVR. The AVR amps drive the other speakers (C, SR, SL). I set the HPA4 to a fixed volume and then control volume of all speakers through the AVR. This is mostly for movies. I occasionally play 5.1 SACDs this way, but the AVR isn't anywhere near as capable as the stereo setup of USB DSD running through the DAC3-B --> HPA4 --> AHB2s.

Seems like you could do the same thing for 11channels in your particular configuration (presumably movies)...

So with just a couple of settings I (not my wife) can quickly switch from high quality stereo playback to movie playback without changing connections.

At this point I'm just waiting for a really good AVR to come into production. Alternatively, @amirm 's measurements of the UDP203's 5.1 pre-outs are the only other good option I personally have available to me (right now) get improved 5.1 audio, but that would require more Benchmark amps and RCA --> XLR. (I have both a BD105-D and a UDP203; but sadly the UDP205s were discontinued when I went back to buy one of them and I was too far down the waiting list to get one on the last production run.)

All that said, my key learning was how important speakers are. With a lot of guidance from great people on this forum, and a few listening trips to a local A/V store, I was able to settle on Revel Studio2s. You'll need good speakers to get the most out of a good stereo chain. There's an entire thread (in the Forums) where people graciously answered my questions regarding speaker selection. Thanks again everyone who helped me... I hope this helps you @Beershaun! :) Cheers!
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
35,411
Likes
136,191
Location
Seattle Area
Someone asked for the difference between 8K input versus 4K/UHD. All my measurements were with 4K. I ran the dashboard with 8K input (but feeding it much lower resolution) but made no difference. Jitter test is more sensitive and shows the slightest variation but nothing of significance:

Denon AVR-X4700H 8K Home Theater Receiver AVR Dolby Atmos Surround 8K vs 4K UHD Jitter Audio M...png
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
35,411
Likes
136,191
Location
Seattle Area
Amir, so far you have tested 3 Denon AVRs. Do you know if the 3500 and 3600 has this bug too and would be discovered if you had used the same tests on them? I thought you may know because you were in conversation with Denon prior.
I expect them to have the same problem but need to confirm. I believe the code is the same on all of them.

FYI I picked up a AVR-X6700H today so can check on that and Marantz SR6104.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
35,411
Likes
136,191
Location
Seattle Area
I would suggest to include the network performance in future Reviews since most AVRs use lower quality DACs for network.
I usually post that but forgot this time. I just added it to the review. Performance is similar to coax input if you use Heos app to stream. Otherwise using Airplay you lose a couple of dB due to truncation to 16 bits.
 
Top Bottom