How is, in real life Dolby Atmos input, with a 7.1.4 speaker setup and external amp included, the power divided between all the channels. I could imagine fronts and center do (by far) the most and take most power. The sub’s are driving themselves so they shouldn’t be having impact. But is there some kind of ‘high over’ generic rule on how much each channel draws in such an Atmos movie? My feeling is that surround, rear surround and ceiling channels don’t use that much power.
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Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)
- Thread starter amirm
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It seems that Denon did fail to make the customization of the amp channels for the X3800H (and presumably for the X4800H where no manual seems to be available for download right now) clear enough in the manual. I like to venture giving my take on this:
Pages 206 (no custom mode is mentioned) and 226 (referencing a custom mode and pointing towards page 206) are obviously contradictory. But even if there is no custom mode this need not imply that no customization is possible.
Indeed, the X3800H manual explicitly states on page 226:
If we do not believe that here the manual is completely wrong then the customization exists but most likely no longer is headlined "Custom". What one should be able to do following the manual is in a first step assign all 9 internal amp channels (e. g. by choosing 9.1ch in the Amp Assign Mode) and then in a second step de-select those internal amp channels that one doesn't want to use. That way no separate "Custom" mode is needed. And by the way, according to the manual text cited above the amp selection would not be possible when the Amp Assign is set to Custom. In other words, you cannot customize when you select custom mode. This must be nonsense. My take is that there was improper proofreading and the "Custom" mode that existed on the X8500H does no longer exist on the X3800H but the functionality is available elsewhere in the GUI (-> Speaker Connection). This change may also have been mentioned in the video (see post 2152). When the Denon rep calls up the speaker connection settings the interviewer (having mentioned the X8500H just before) comments: "They moved it."
In the screenshot in post 2155 one can see the speaker assignment in the GUI. A few seconds earlier in the video one can see that all speakers were set to "Speaker + Pre-out" (which is the default). The change to "Pre-out only" is only shown for the fronts but it might make not much sense to mention the other speakers in the settings menu if no settings were possible for those speakers.
As I understand page 213 (see post 2147) this mainly shows how to tell the AVR which speakers will be driven by the 2 external amp channels needed for a 11.1 setup.
One little caveat for communication about this topic across the Atlantic: I found that the EU version of the manual differs from the North America version (the AVR sold in the EU will come without AM/FM) so that the page numbers won't match. For convenience I have used the North America version as seems to have been the case in the posts mentioned.
Pages 206 (no custom mode is mentioned) and 226 (referencing a custom mode and pointing towards page 206) are obviously contradictory. But even if there is no custom mode this need not imply that no customization is possible.
Indeed, the X3800H manual explicitly states on page 226:
If we do not believe that here the manual is completely wrong then the customization exists but most likely no longer is headlined "Custom". What one should be able to do following the manual is in a first step assign all 9 internal amp channels (e. g. by choosing 9.1ch in the Amp Assign Mode) and then in a second step de-select those internal amp channels that one doesn't want to use. That way no separate "Custom" mode is needed. And by the way, according to the manual text cited above the amp selection would not be possible when the Amp Assign is set to Custom. In other words, you cannot customize when you select custom mode. This must be nonsense. My take is that there was improper proofreading and the "Custom" mode that existed on the X8500H does no longer exist on the X3800H but the functionality is available elsewhere in the GUI (-> Speaker Connection). This change may also have been mentioned in the video (see post 2152). When the Denon rep calls up the speaker connection settings the interviewer (having mentioned the X8500H just before) comments: "They moved it."
In the screenshot in post 2155 one can see the speaker assignment in the GUI. A few seconds earlier in the video one can see that all speakers were set to "Speaker + Pre-out" (which is the default). The change to "Pre-out only" is only shown for the fronts but it might make not much sense to mention the other speakers in the settings menu if no settings were possible for those speakers.
As I understand page 213 (see post 2147) this mainly shows how to tell the AVR which speakers will be driven by the 2 external amp channels needed for a 11.1 setup.
One little caveat for communication about this topic across the Atlantic: I found that the EU version of the manual differs from the North America version (the AVR sold in the EU will come without AM/FM) so that the page numbers won't match. For convenience I have used the North America version as seems to have been the case in the posts mentioned.
lexelot
Member
I use pre-out only inside the Speaker Connection menu of my X3800H for LCR channels. My other speakers are using the amps on the receiver.
Amp Assign is set to 7.1 + Zone 2. Any amp assign mode lets me choose if I want to use “Pre-out only” or “Speaker + Pre-out” in the separate Speaker Connection screen
In a slightly related way, I’ll copy-paste a discovery from my initial first review:
Amp Assign is set to 7.1 + Zone 2. Any amp assign mode lets me choose if I want to use “Pre-out only” or “Speaker + Pre-out” in the separate Speaker Connection screen
In a slightly related way, I’ll copy-paste a discovery from my initial first review:
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Thank you, I was going to ask you or another 3800 owner to confirm whether pre out only is selectable for the front L/R channels like the X3700H. Based on your screen shot, you can select center channel to pre out only so that's good news. In this case my original assumption stated in my original post on this feature way back was right, then after reading the manual, I thought (
D+M needs to find someone who knows how to write manuals, so that potential customers don't have to depend on forum members who are helpful enough to post screen shots for simple questions on features.
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Thank you, I was going to ask you or another 3800 owner to confirm whether pre out only is selectable for the front L/R channels like the X3700H. Based on your screen shot, you can select center channel to pre out only so that's good news. In this case my original assumption stated in my original post on this feature way back was right, then after reading the manual, I thought (like Music707..) I was wrong and edited my post now it looks like I was actually correct again..
D+M needs to find someone who knows how to write manuals, so that potential customers don't have to depend on forum members who are helpful enough to post screen shots for simple questions on features.
I am afraid that the way you refer to my post might be a bit confusing. "I thought (like Music707..) I was wrong" might suggest that I shared your (understandable) scepticism but this obviously is not the case. In my post I showed that with careful reading (plus some pondering) and perhaps in addition watching the video it was possible to get to the right conclusion that the X3800H offers individual amp assignments despite the fact that the manual could definitely be improved.
Many thanks to @lexelot for providing first-hand experience which answers the question.
My apology, just edited my post to avoid unintentionally mislead others. Thank you for letting me know.
GabrielPhoto
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Anyone know what this spec for the Monolith 7x 7x200Wattts amp is?
I saw this on the specs:
| Input Sensitivity for Full Rated Power | 1.6 volts |
So if the above is the piece of info needed, how does it apply to the 4700h?
I am considering the 3800h, 4700h and the RZ50 right now.
My 4 atmos speaker will be run by the AVR ideally which means only the 3800h can do the selective pre-amp mode. Otherwise I would need another 4 channel amp for the 4700 if I wanted to go all preamp mode.
That and Dirac were the main reasons I looked at the 3800h for.
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It means the Denon will clip before your Monolith can produce full power increasing distortion and reducing the signal quality and artificially limiting the power output of your amplifier. So it's not a good match for the Denon.
I don't know... depends on how you want to define clipping I think... at 1.6v you are at a Sinad of around 80. Some may have a problem with that but others will be fine with it. Great to have the info as this is one of the most useful measurements done on AVRs and Processors so you have an idea to help you match amps. So in this case at 1.4v you are around 100 SINAD and 1.6v down to 80. Up to the buyer if that matters if they want to use some of the amps and not engage the full preamp mode.
GabrielPhoto
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Thanks guys!
So basically to get the "best" quality from the 4700h I would need to add another 4 channel amp for Atmos so I can go into preamp mode OR just grab the 3800h basically.
Maybe I am seeing it wrong but it looks like even with preamp mode the 3800h aint doing so good?
And the 4700h with preamp mode still does not seem "great" at 1.6v...so guess I should have gotten a more sensitive amp...
Looks like it is the Onkyo RZ50 the best match of the 3 for my amp...isnt it? At least in terms of SINAD?
I DONT play a reference levels though..normally more like -10 or so.
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I have the Denon 4700 with Monolith 7x200 in full pre-amp mode and it sounds FANTASTIC.
Anyone telling you otherwise hasn't actually tried it.
What @amper42 said. You are better off going full pre-amp mode with the Denon and getting amps for all your channels OR switching to an Amp that can make full power at 1.4v.
The Denon 4700 doesn't clip at 1.4V. In addition, if you reach 1.4V with normal efficient speakers in a 7.2.4 configuration your house sounds like it's about to blow up with a rocket launch or a big car crash. The Monolith 7x200 offers more overhead than I could ever want with the Denon 4700 in pre-amp mode. Sound is crystal clear. It's a big leap over the internal Denon amps and it can get much louder than I will ever want while still offering totally clean sounding playback. You have to try it to believe it. I came from an old Onkyo AVR, then moved to the the Denon 4500 two years ago with internal Denon amps then the 4700 in preamp mode and Monolith 7x200. The 4700/Monolith 7x200 combo blew away my other AVR's. It's an entirely different animal. I read posts saying the internal amps are good enough and I think to myself, "Been There Done That". To each his own.
GabrielPhoto
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What amp are you using for atmos?
I dare you to stay in the room for an hour at 1.6V playback with the Denon 4700/Monolith 7x200 in a 7.2.4 configuration. I rarely have the volume on the Denon 4700 over 65. To reach 1.6V the volume control would be around 85-90. Have the ear doctor on speed dial.
I am agreeing with you and your setup. Sorry if that didn't come across in my post. The way you have yours set up is clearly the way to go for the OP.
I try to keep all my amps on the Denon 4700 with the same gain. The Monolith 7x200 offers a Voltage gain of 28dB and my old Adcom GFA 7000 offers the same 28dB gain. The Adcom is currently feeding the height speakers. The rest of the speakers are on the Monolith 7x200.
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GabrielPhoto
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Looks like SINAD is almost 100 at 1.6 in full preamp so I guess I may want to grab a 4 channel amp for my atmosI dare you to stay in the room for an hour at 1.6V playback with the Denon 4700/Monolith 7x200 in a 7.2.4 configuration. I rarely have the volume on the Denon 4700 over 65. To reach 1.6V the volume control would be around 85-90. Have the ear doctor on speed dial.
GabrielPhoto
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What about the version and the whole AKM dac thing? How can I be sure I get the "right" one?
For the Denon 4700 to have the AKM chip it would need to be manufactured by approx March 2021. If the serial number includes 70xxx in the last 5 digits it will be version 2 and not include the AKM DAC. It's possible to find a used 4700 with AKM but most of the units you purchase new now or refurb are likely to be later models.
My two 4700 AKM models had serial numbers less than XXXXXXX002500
