Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

[amper42]

So people keep saying the 3700 and the 4700 are the same, however in amirm's measurements they do measure differently. When it comes to power output specifically the 4700 seems to have a decent amount mor power. (About 114 watts compared to 124 watts at 8 ohm, 2ch).

Now admittedly this difference isn't huge, but what if you're driving 7.1 or 9.1 channels? Would the power difference be more meaningful then?

While a bit more power is nice, once you understand raising the volume by 3dB requires double the power you start to understand why a 10% difference in power is not noticeable. As far as talking about using stereo versus 7.1 or 9.1 you should understand the available power per channel drops by approx. 20% with 5 channels or more active. So, 114W per channel becomes approx 91W per channel or 124W becomes 99W. An 8W difference will not be audible in any demonstration.

The other fact is if the highest performance with the Denon 3700 or 4700 is desired then the user will switch to pre-out mode and use extremely clean amps like the Monolith 7x200, Purifi, NC502MP, NC252MP or other amps that substantially surpass the internal Denon amp performance.

The real difference in the Denon 4700 compared to the Denon 3700 for me is AURO-3D compatibility, front HDMI (great for REW), dual line display and a better remote. If the user really wants to push performance it will be done with external amps. So, to me it really doesn't matter if the 4700 has zero internal amps. In fact, it might perform even better without any internal amps. It certainly would run cooler.

 

[Freighter]

While a bit more power is nice, once you understand raising the volume by 3dB requires double the power you start to understand why a 10% difference in power is not noticeable. As far as talking about using stereo versus 7.1 or 9.1 you should understand the available power per channel drops by approx. 20% with 5 channels or more active. So, 114W per channel becomes approx 91W per channel or 124W becomes 99W. An 8W difference will not be audible in any demonstration.

The other fact is if the highest performance with the Denon 3700 or 4700 is desired then the user will switch to pre-out mode and use extremely clean amps like the Monolith 7x200, Purifi, NC502MP, NC252MP or other amps that substantially surpass the internal Denon amp performance.

The real difference in the Denon 4700 compared to the Denon 3700 for me is AURO-3D compatibility, front HDMI (great for REW), dual line display and a better remote. If the user really wants to push performance it will be done with external amps. So, to me it really doesn't matter if the 4700 has zero internal amps. In fact, it might perform even better without any internal amps. It certainly would run cooler.

Awesome, thank for this.

All this stuff is a bit new to me, so can I ask some advice? I currently have the Marantz SR7011. I’m looking for a new amp for two reasons: A) my partner feels that it sounds distorted at higher volumes and B) one of the atmos channels recently developed a permanent hiss. I could of course get the receiver fixed also as a much cheaper alternative to buying a new amp.

My question is, would the 3700 (or 4700) offer audibly better sound quality over the SR7011? I couldn’t find measurements for the SR7011, however there are measurements for the newer And more expensive SR7015. For my purposes I will assume that the SR7011 would perform worse than the SR7015 (or at least, not better than the SR7015).

In the SR7015 measurements there’s quite a few measurements that seem To be not great. Like the SINAD and the frequency response and the DAC filtering. The 3700 is much better in all those regards.

However I’m not sure how to interpret all this data in the sense that I’m not sure if it will result in an audible difference. For instance, I like to listen to EDM quite loud, but also I like to watch action movies turned up loud as well. Will the better measurements of the 3700 result in an audible improvement over the SR7011, do you think?

(In other words; my partner feels like the SR7011 sounds worse/more distorted at higher volumes, do you think it’s likely that the 3700 will sound better than the SR7011 in that regard?)

 

[amper42]

Awesome, thank for this.

All this stuff is a bit new to me, so can I ask some advice? I currently have the Marantz SR7011. I’m looking for a new amp for two reasons: A) my partner feels that it sounds distorted at higher volumes and B) one of the atmos channels recently developed a permanent hiss. I could of course get the receiver fixed also as a much cheaper alternative to buying a new amp.

My question is, would the 3700 (or 4700) offer audibly better sound quality over the SR7011? I couldn’t find measurements for the SR7011, however there are measurements for the newer And more expensive SR7015. For my purposes I will assume that the SR7011 would perform worse than the SR7015 (or at least, not better than the SR7015).

In the SR7015 measurements there’s quite a few measurements that seem To be not great. Like the SINAD and the frequency response and the DAC filtering. The 3700 is much better in all those regards.

However I’m not sure how to interpret all this data in the sense that I’m not sure if it will result in an audible difference. For instance, I like to listen to EDM quite loud, but also I like to watch action movies turned up loud as well. Will the better measurements of the 3700 result in an audible improvement over the SR7011, do you think?

(In other words; my partner feels like the SR7011 sounds worse/more distorted at higher volumes, do you think it’s likely that the 3700 will sound better than the SR7011 in that regard?)

On a measurement basis, the Denon 3700 would be a considerable improvement over the Marantz SR7011 or SR7015. Whether you would hear this difference is a more personal question. But the biggest difference is the Denon 3700 offers full pre-out mode where you can increase performance while using high performance external amps. The Marantz does not offer that feature.

If it was me, I would buy a Buckeye 6 channel NC252MP ($1199) or 6 channel NC502MP $1649 if you want even more power and place it on your existing SR7011 with the Fronts, Center and ATMOS running off pre-outs. See if that fixes your ATMOS and distortion issue. If so, you are done. If not, you can use that amp on the Denon 3700 as well.

Buckeye Amps: New US based Hypex multichannel amplifier builder, line-up announcement!

Hypex NC502MP specs: - 450w @ 2ohm (per channel, peak) - 500w @ 4ohm (per channel, peak) - 350w @ 8ohm (per channel, peak) Hypex NC252MP specs: - 180w @ 2ohm (per channel, peak) - 250w @ 4ohm (per channel, peak) - 150w @ 8ohm (per channel, peak) PRICING: XL 8ch Aluminum Case (17"x13"x6")...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Freighter]

On a measurement basis, the Denon 3700 would be a considerable improvement over the Marantz SR7011 or SR7015. Whether you would hear this difference is a more personal question. But the biggest difference is the Denon 3700 offers full pre-out mode where you can increase performance while using high performance external amps. The Marantz does not offer that feature.

If it was me, I would buy a Buckeye 6 channel NC252MP ($1199) or 6 channel NC502MP $1649 if you want even more power and place it on your existing SR7011 with the Fronts, Center and ATMOS running off pre-outs. See if that fixes your ATMOS and distortion issue. If so, you are done. If not, you can use that amp on the Denon 3700 as well.

Buckeye Amps: New US based Hypex multichannel amplifier builder, line-up announcement!

Hypex NC502MP specs: - 450w @ 2ohm (per channel, peak) - 500w @ 4ohm (per channel, peak) - 350w @ 8ohm (per channel, peak) Hypex NC252MP specs: - 180w @ 2ohm (per channel, peak) - 250w @ 4ohm (per channel, peak) - 150w @ 8ohm (per channel, peak) PRICING: XL 8ch Aluminum Case (17"x13"x6")...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Thank you! What does full pre-out mode mean exactly and how does that relate to the two 6 channel amps you recommended? (Would those options perform better on the 3700 because of the full-pre out mode?)

I assume it means that the 3700 can pre-out all channels and the sr7011 can not?

 

[amper42]

Thank you! What does full pre-out mode mean exactly and how does that relate to the two 6 channel amps you recommended? (Would those options perform better on the 3700 because of the full-pre out mode?)

I assume it means that the 3700 can pre-out all channels and the sr7011 can not?

Before the Denon 3700/4700/6700 release you could connect external amps to the pre-out and use them on each channel but the internal amps were still active. In that senario, the internal amps can still add distortion even though the external amp is doing all the work.

With full pre-out mode selected none of the internal Denon 3700 amps will play music. While the internal power amps are not turned off they are disconnected from the power rail. This allows the receiver's SINAD performance to increase substantially and provides a cleaner sound at higher volumes when you are using high quality external amps like the Buckeye amps recommended earlier.

My thought is if your Height (ATMOS) channel in the Marantz is on it's last legs using the external amp may help by pass it. If not, the Denon 3700 and the Buckeye amp makes a great combination that will play those high volume passages without blinking an eye. It will be a cleaner sound at higher volumes than you ever imagined.

 

[Freighter]

Before the Denon 3700/4700/6700 release you could connect external amps to the pre-out and use them on each channel but the internal amps were still active. In that senario, the internal amps can still add distortion even though the external amp is doing all the work.

With full pre-out mode selected none of the internal Denon 3700 amps will play music. While the internal power amps are not turned off they are disconnected from the power rail. This allows the receiver's SINAD performance to increase substantially and provides a cleaner sound at higher volumes when you are using high quality external amps like the Buckeye amps recommended earlier.

My thought is if your Height (ATMOS) channel in the Marantz is on it's last legs using the external amp may help by pass it. If not, the Denon 3700 and the Buckeye amp makes a great combination that will play those high volume passages without blinking an eye. It will be a cleaner sound at higher volumes than you ever imagined.

Sounds amazing, thanks so much! I'm not in the US so it'll probably be a hard time getting that and running that here without substantial extra costs. Maybe I could find another 6 channel NC252MP amp that is shippable in Europe (or The Netherlands). If you have any ideas I would love to hear it!

 

[ririt]

Sounds amazing, thanks so much! I'm not in the US so it'll probably be a hard time getting that and running that here without substantial extra costs. Maybe I could find another 6 channel NC252MP amp that is shippable in Europe (or The Netherlands). If you have any ideas I would love to hear it!

There is several european providers of NC252MP-based amps at various prices. Audiophonics should be the less expensive while Boxem, Apollon or Nord (UK) are slightly more expensive. Quality wise, Apollon and especially Boxem are in an other category.

 

[Freighter]

I was wondering if anyone could confirm wether the noise problem when downmixing (channel mapping) surround signals that was found in the original measurements from the first thread was ever resolved (with a firmware update for instance), or if it is still present? Since I’m using a surround setup that uses no center channel.

 

[davidc]

I have just purchased a 4700, and am excitedly expecting it the end of next week.

Please excuse the simplicity of my question, but what is the maximum output of the pre-amp section when the Amp Assign Mode is set to Pre Amplifier? I plan on running external amps for all the channels I use. This will be a 5.0 system initially, but may turn into a 5.1 or 7.1 system in the near future.

The external amps have input sensitivity ratings of 1.15V, 1.2V and 1.5V, and of course I want to make sure I can run them to full output if needed.

Also, I will use Audyssey, which will adjust levels, so, should I just turn the external amps level controls to maximum?

 

[amper42]

I have just purchased a 4700, and am excitedly expecting it the end of next week.

Please excuse the simplicity of my question, but what is the maximum output of the pre-amp section when the Amp Assign Mode is set to Pre Amplifier? I plan on running external amps for all the channels I use. This will be a 5.0 system initially, but may turn into a 5.1 or 7.1 system in the near future.

The external amps have input sensitivity ratings of 1.15V, 1.2V and 1.5V, and of course I want to make sure I can run them to full output if needed.

Also, I will use Audyssey, which will adjust levels, so, should I just turn the external amps level controls to maximum?

I would not be too concerned about sensitivity between 1.15 to 1.5V with external amps supporting all Denon 4700 channels while amp assign is set to full pre-out mode. If you look at the image below from the ASR review, SINAD starts to decline at 1.4V when the internal amps are engaged. But, it's a very slow rolloff with pre-out only mode. In fact, the Denon 4700 could reach 4V.

Personally, I would be more focused on using external amps of the same brand and gain structure when possible. This allows more consistency between channels versus a 29dB gain on surrounds from one manufacturer and a 26.5 dB gain on the fronts from another company. If I was just starting to plan buying all external amps for the 4700, I would keep them the same if possible or very close. You can run various brands/gains but it requires Audyssey to attempt to compensate for the difference at the same time as calculate the EQ. When I use a system with the same amps all around it sounds more balanced to my ear. Others may disagree but that's been my experience.

 

[davidc]

Thanks for your reply. The amps I already have and are vintage Carver stuff. A PM-1.5a, PM-1200, PM-1201 and an AV-806X. They've all been rebuilt and tested.

 

[amper42]

New Denon 4700 $1699
If you have been wanting a Denon 4700, Listenup.com has them on sale for 15% off using code Cyber15. That takes the Denon 4700 down to $1699 or basically $300 off and free shipping. This code should work on the 3700 and other items as well. Offer ends Tuesday at noon. I bought a Denon 4700 from them and the service was good.

Receivers & Amplifiers

Passion for innovative HiFi, home theater, & smart home products. We believe technology isn’t just about making life better, it’s about making life beautiful.

listenup.com

 

[davidc]

New Denon 4700 $1699
If you have been wanting a Denon 4700, Listenup.com has them on sale for 15% off using code Cyber15. That takes the Denon 4700 down to $1699 or basically $300 off and free shipping. This code should work on the 3700 and other items as well. Offer ends Tuesday at noon. I bought a Denon 4700 from them and the service was good.

Receivers & Amplifiers

Passion for innovative HiFi, home theater, & smart home products. We believe technology isn’t just about making life better, it’s about making life beautiful.

listenup.com

Bought it from avsforum.com for $1735 including shipping

 

[Klint]

Is there any way to send a digital signal from the 4700. Spotify to an external DAC?
Thanks

 

[dlaloum]

Is there any way to send a digital signal from the 4700. Spotify to an external DAC?
Thanks

Probably the only way, on modern AVR's, is the HDMI output, and then use a breakout box (HDMI Audio Extractor) to split out an SPDIF signal ...

I'm pretty sure the various DMCA / HDCP related licences are the main reason AVR's don't have "open" digital outputs

 

[Klint]

Probably the only way, on modern AVR's, is the HDMI output, and then use a breakout box (HDMI Audio Extractor) to split out an SPDIF signal ...

I'm pretty sure the various DMCA / HDCP related licences are the main reason AVR's don't have "open" digital outputs

Many thanks.

 

[Freighter]

On a measurement basis, the Denon 3700 would be a considerable improvement over the Marantz SR7011 or SR7015. Whether you would hear this difference is a more personal question. But the biggest difference is the Denon 3700 offers full pre-out mode where you can increase performance while using high performance external amps. The Marantz does not offer that feature.

If it was me, I would buy a Buckeye 6 channel NC252MP ($1199) or 6 channel NC502MP $1649 if you want even more power and place it on your existing SR7011 with the Fronts, Center and ATMOS running off pre-outs. See if that fixes your ATMOS and distortion issue. If so, you are done. If not, you can use that amp on the Denon 3700 as well.

Buckeye Amps: New US based Hypex multichannel amplifier builder, line-up announcement!

Hypex NC502MP specs: - 450w @ 2ohm (per channel, peak) - 500w @ 4ohm (per channel, peak) - 350w @ 8ohm (per channel, peak) Hypex NC252MP specs: - 180w @ 2ohm (per channel, peak) - 250w @ 4ohm (per channel, peak) - 150w @ 8ohm (per channel, peak) PRICING: XL 8ch Aluminum Case (17"x13"x6")...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Just to report back - maybe someone’s in a similar position as me - here’s what I’ve tried based on your advice. The advice was basically spot on.

So I bought the X4700H hoping it would get met better performance over the SR7011. This didn’t really pan out. The Denon I’m sure measures much better than the SR7011 however I we (me and my partner) didn’t find it was really an improvement over the SR7011. We didn’t blind ABX test them (too much work), but based on our super subjective listening experiences we found that the Denon did seem to sound slightly different than the SR7011, but not better. (In any case not better in the sense that we found it worth the money). So we’re sending the Denon back.

Then we bought a Crown XLR 1502 that we got a good deal on and connected it through the pre-outs. That really did make a big, immediately noticeable difference. At lower volumes not so much, but when music playing at high volumes the speakers sounded much fuller with a tighter and more prominent bass and mid bass. During movies they also sounded much better. We often try the 2009 Star Trek intro sequence and immediately following car scene, because they sound absolutely amazing but can also have some harshness in the real high frequency effects. Using only the receiver, these scenes can become quite unpleasant at higher volumes. With the Crown, that was eliminated completely - it just sounds clean and tight with no harshness at all. I don’t have any equipment to measure anything but if I had to guess I would say that the Denon/Marantz were distorting at those higher volumes and the Crown is not.

One downside to the Crown however is that it did introduce an audible noise floor that is not present when using the internal amps on the Denon/Marantz.

I’m however super happy with this result. The system really sounds much better at higher volumes now and this upgrade was so much more affordable than a new AVR.

Thanks!

 

[oupee]

Just to report back - maybe someone’s in a similar position as me - here’s what I’ve tried based on your advice. The advice was basically spot on.

So I bought the X4700H hoping it would get met better performance over the SR7011. This didn’t really pan out. The Denon I’m sure measures much better than the SR7011 however I we (me and my partner) didn’t find it was really an improvement over the SR7011. We didn’t blind ABX test them (too much work), but based on our super subjective listening experiences we found that the Denon did seem to sound slightly different than the SR7011, but not better. (In any case not better in the sense that we found it worth the money). So we’re sending the Denon back.

Then we bought a Crown XLR 1502 that we got a good deal on and connected it through the pre-outs. That really did make a big, immediately noticeable difference. At lower volumes not so much, but when music playing at high volumes the speakers sounded much fuller with a tighter and more prominent bass and mid bass. During movies they also sounded much better. We often try the 2009 Star Trek intro sequence and immediately following car scene, because they sound absolutely amazing but can also have some harshness in the real high frequency effects. Using only the receiver, these scenes can become quite unpleasant at higher volumes. With the Crown, that was eliminated completely - it just sounds clean and tight with no harshness at all. I don’t have any equipment to measure anything but if I had to guess I would say that the Denon/Marantz were distorting at those higher volumes and the Crown is not.

One downside to the Crown however is that it did introduce an audible noise floor that is not present when using the internal amps on the Denon/Marantz.

I’m however super happy with this result. The system really sounds much better at higher volumes now and this upgrade was so much more affordable than a new AVR.

Thanks!

I also returned 4700. I have exactly the same experience with 4700 vs SR6013. Unfortunately, I sold the SR6013 first.

 

[amper42]

Just to report back - maybe someone’s in a similar position as me - here’s what I’ve tried based on your advice. The advice was basically spot on.

So I bought the X4700H hoping it would get met better performance over the SR7011. This didn’t really pan out. The Denon I’m sure measures much better than the SR7011 however I we (me and my partner) didn’t find it was really an improvement over the SR7011. We didn’t blind ABX test them (too much work), but based on our super subjective listening experiences we found that the Denon did seem to sound slightly different than the SR7011, but not better. (In any case not better in the sense that we found it worth the money). So we’re sending the Denon back.

Then we bought a Crown XLR 1502 that we got a good deal on and connected it through the pre-outs. That really did make a big, immediately noticeable difference. At lower volumes not so much, but when music playing at high volumes the speakers sounded much fuller with a tighter and more prominent bass and mid bass. During movies they also sounded much better. We often try the 2009 Star Trek intro sequence and immediately following car scene, because they sound absolutely amazing but can also have some harshness in the real high frequency effects. Using only the receiver, these scenes can become quite unpleasant at higher volumes. With the Crown, that was eliminated completely - it just sounds clean and tight with no harshness at all. I don’t have any equipment to measure anything but if I had to guess I would say that the Denon/Marantz were distorting at those higher volumes and the Crown is not.

One downside to the Crown however is that it did introduce an audible noise floor that is not present when using the internal amps on the Denon/Marantz.

I’m however super happy with this result. The system really sounds much better at higher volumes now and this upgrade was so much more affordable than a new AVR.

Thanks!

It's possible you did not setup the Denon 4700 with Audyssey MultEQ Editor app? It allows the user to remove the automatic BBC dip, select rolloff #2 for more of a Harmon "like" curve and customize the house curve exactly to the individual's taste. If you are not aware of the 4700 sound customization options it may sound bright with some speakers. Of course, DEQ is another option to add bass impact to your listening.

Denon resellers should offer a class on the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app with each Denon 4700 sold.

‎Audyssey MultEQ Editor app

‎The latest Denon Marantz audio video products use Audyssey MultEQ for simple, accurate set-up calibration of your system to the room in which it’s used. But, now you can go further with the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app, going ‘under the hood’ to view and adjust settings for detailed tuning –...

apps.apple.com

 

[LunaTempesta]

Seeing as the 3700h seems to be out of stock everywhere with expected delivery next year, and the 4700h being offered for slightly more only. Is there any reason to really wait, the extra ooompfh (?) on the 4700h seems reason enough to opt for it. Both seemed to perform well in the tests here also.