Denon avr-x3900h preamp measurements

[Chrispy]

We spent decades laboring under the assumption that bass was omnidirectional, now when they run out of new shit to market to people, suddenly it's directional. Some bass above a certain frequency is directional, but you're supposed to have speakers that can already produce that bass. Some deep bass can sound different depending on seating position if your room is very active with room modes, but again, that's something people are supposed to be addressing with practices like "sub crawls" and other placement hacks.

Most of this stuff is marketing shlock, nothing impressive has happened in surround sound in 10+ years, including Atmos, which almost always sounds worse than DTS-MA.

Eh? Who markets the lower bass as directional?

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Eh? Who markets the lower bass as directional?

Apparently Denon with the multiple sub outputs that can split the room into quadrants. Nevermind the fact that humans are terrible at localizing bass below 80hz, and anybody with a real theater setup has 5/7 channels of speakers that are plenty capable of handling bass down to 80hz or lower. I've always crossed over between 60-80hz for this reason and then placed my subs wherever room modes were neutralized best.

TL;DR, it's marketing nonsense to sell new features nobody needs or asked for.

 

[Chrispy]

Apparently Denon with the multiple sub outputs that can split the room into quadrants. Nevermind the fact that humans are terrible at localizing bass below 80hz, and anybody with a real theater setup has 5/7 channels of speakers that are plenty capable of handling bass down to 80hz or lower. I personally have personally always crossed over between 60-80hz for this reason and then placed my subs wherever room modes were neutralized best.

TL;DR, it's marketing nonsense to sell new features nobody needs or asked for.

I think you misunderstand the directionality of such.

 

[EWL5]

I think you misunderstand the directionality of such.

Also, it's easy for folks to downplay the advantages of reducing decay when they've never heard a proper setup meant to accomplish it!

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

I split my Martin Logan electrostats into the electrostatic panels (250Hz - 20kHz) and "subwoofers" (built in 10" woofers) (<250Hz) using said directional bass feature and MultEQ-X software. It is a feature that I was able to use to my advantage in a big way for my setup. I removed the passive crossovers for both the electrostatic panel and woofer which in itself gave me a 2dB boost in efficiency, making the less efficient ML speakers better match the other 9 speakers which were all higher efficiency. In the process I was able to up the panel/woofer crossover from 125Hz to 250Hz, which takes a major load off the panel as the original Sequels had the panels crossed too low for minimal distortion. I used the Front-Left and Front-Right subwoofer outputs (directional bass setting) for the woofers with a powerful external amplifier. The panels use the internal X3800H amps which are more than capable of powering them. The improvement in sound from bringing 1988 speakers up to modern DSP standards with the help of just what's built into my receiver is more than I could have hoped for. The 2nd order crossovers dialed in on the first attempt, and the pre and post measurements confirm reduced distortion and improved phase response using the higher crossover frequency. So at least one thumbs up for directional bass. It even allows me to measure the speaker as a combined unit which is nice not having to piece together the individual responses.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

This is very cool, but it's probably the most esoteric imaginable implementation of this feature.. They definitely didn't put this out there thinking that users would figure out a way to make passive speakers into active ones.

 

[EWL5]

This is very cool, but it's probably the most esoteric imaginable implementation of this feature.. They definitely didn't put this out there thinking that users would figure out a way to make passive speakers into active ones.

Directional bass became available on Denon models in late 2022, a similar timeframe to when ART was exclusive to StormAudio products so I think it's not just coincidence. When the next gen Onkyo products come out in 2027 and they inevitably include "Directional Bass", when does it become less a marketing "gimmick" and more of an arms race?

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

I like the idea that it was an esoteric implementation of said feature. I feel like when the thousands of older ML fans find out that they can use these receivers to make their classic speakers actively crossed over, it may tend to make the feature more popular?

I went a step further and placed a 3rd directional subwoofer as "Rear" behind the couch that supports all 4 (side and rear) surround speakers and rear height speakers that are low frequency limited to 200-250Hz. The room is on the smaller side, so they are all in fairly close proximity to the 3rd subwoofer. The 4th sub is a tactile transducer low passed @ 40Hz. I am getting the most out of this receiver and it shows when I invite people over to watch movies - especially those with a lot of very low bass (though we've noticed that even many TV series have massive bass, it's just that it was never as apparent as it is with fast transient speakers and the tactile to reinforce the 3 low-frequency drivers.)

 

[Dougey_Jones]

I like the idea that it was an esoteric implementation of said feature. I feel like when the thousands of older ML fans find out that they can use these receivers to make their classic speakers actively crossed over, it may tend to make the feature more popular?

I went a step further and placed a 3rd directional subwoofer as "Rear" behind the couch that supports all 4 (side and rear) surround speakers and rear height speakers that are low frequency limited to 200-250Hz. The room is on the smaller side, so they are all in fairly close proximity to the 3rd subwoofer. The 4th sub is a tactile transducer low passed @ 40Hz. I am getting the most out of this receiver and it shows when I invite people over to watch movies - especially those with a lot of very low bass (though we've noticed that even many TV series have massive bass, it's just that it was never as apparent as it is with fast transient speakers and the tactile to reinforce the 3 low-frequency drivers.)

Just to confirm, you DID defeat/remove the stock crossover internally, correct?

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

Just to confirm, you DID defeat/remove the stock crossover internally, correct?

Picture time

Before (woofer inductor/cap was in box, only magnet wire shows @ 2nd set of terminals):

Back side:

After (I left 1 ohm load for panel as impedance is <1 ohm @ 20kHz):

And yes, I removed the woofer to remove the cap across the terminals and series inductor.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Picture time

Before (woofer inductor/cap was in box, only magnet wire shows @ 2nd set of terminals):

View attachment 544624
Back side:

View attachment 544625

After (I left 1 ohm load for panel as impedance is <1 ohm @ 20kHz):
View attachment 544626

And yes, I removed the woofer to remove the cap across the terminals and series inductor.

Rad! Probably one of the only people with active ML's in the world at this point.

 

[d3miller]

Hi folks,
I recently purchased the 3900h to replace my Marantz AV7706, basically for Dirac ART. My plan was to run it in pre-out mode, which I did (set this for all the connected speakers). However, I'm noticing a significant amount of noise/hiss coming out of my speakers when running in preamp mode. Much more than was present with my Marantz, maybe due to RCA vs XRL? But it's only a 3' RCA... The noise isn't there when I unplug the RCAs from the Denon. There is no change with volume or even muting; it's ever-present. Wondering if anyone here experiencing similar with the 3900h.

To troubleshoot I then switched all my speakers over to the integrated amps just to see what would happen, and now there's complete silence! So now I'm question the whole separates approach and if I should just go this route and get rid of my external amps as the Denon seems to drive my speakers well enough with some basic testing. And I'm not sure if I'd even hear an audible difference between the Denon amps vs pre-out mode+external amps (assuming I'm able to address the speaker noise/hiss).

In case it's helpful, a few more details:
Bed layer amp: Outlaw 5000x
Atmos amp: Emotiva BasX A4
RCA Cables: Blue Jeans LC-1, 3'
I get the exact same noise coming out of both amps, so it must be something at the preout stage.

 

[EWL5]

Hi folks,
I recently purchased the 3900h to replace my Marantz AV7706, basically for Dirac ART. My plan was to run it in pre-out mode, which I did (set this for all the connected speakers). However, I'm noticing a significant amount of noise/hiss coming out of my speakers when running in preamp mode. Much more than was present with my Marantz, maybe due to RCA vs XRL? But it's only a 3' RCA... The noise isn't there when I unplug the RCAs from the Denon. There is no change with volume or even muting; it's ever-present. Wondering if anyone here experiencing similar with the 3900h.

To troubleshoot I then switched all my speakers over to the integrated amps just to see what would happen, and now there's complete silence! So now I'm question the whole separates approach and if I should just go this route and get rid of my external amps as the Denon seems to drive my speakers well enough with some basic testing. And I'm not sure if I'd even hear an audible difference between the Denon amps vs pre-out mode+external amps (assuming I'm able to address the speaker noise/hiss).

In case it's helpful, a few more details:
Bed layer amp: Outlaw 5000x
Atmos amp: Emotiva BasX A4
RCA Cables: Blue Jeans LC-1, 3'
I get the exact same noise coming out of both amps, so it must be something at the preout stage.

Did you actually put the 3900 in pre-amp mode when using external amps?

 

[d3miller]

Did you actually put the 3900 in pre-amp mode when using external amps?

Yes, I did. I went into the speaker settings. It was the same whether in amp+pre-out or pre-out only. I tried different variations—all pre-amp only, fronts only, none, etc. All the same. The last thing I’m going to try is an inline RCA attenuator (Harrison Labs), which should arrive next week. In the meantime, will keep trying out the integrated amps. Open to ideas though!

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Hi folks,
I recently purchased the 3900h to replace my Marantz AV7706, basically for Dirac ART. My plan was to run it in pre-out mode, which I did (set this for all the connected speakers). However, I'm noticing a significant amount of noise/hiss coming out of my speakers when running in preamp mode. Much more than was present with my Marantz, maybe due to RCA vs XRL? But it's only a 3' RCA... The noise isn't there when I unplug the RCAs from the Denon. There is no change with volume or even muting; it's ever-present. Wondering if anyone here experiencing similar with the 3900h.

To troubleshoot I then switched all my speakers over to the integrated amps just to see what would happen, and now there's complete silence! So now I'm question the whole separates approach and if I should just go this route and get rid of my external amps as the Denon seems to drive my speakers well enough with some basic testing. And I'm not sure if I'd even hear an audible difference between the Denon amps vs pre-out mode+external amps (assuming I'm able to address the speaker noise/hiss).

In case it's helpful, a few more details:
Bed layer amp: Outlaw 5000x
Atmos amp: Emotiva BasX A4
RCA Cables: Blue Jeans LC-1, 3'
I get the exact same noise coming out of both amps, so it must be something at the preout stage.

Question for you..

Are you running an HTPC or any PC into the AVR via HDMI?

The reason I ask is that I use one with my x3700h and I am also using preamp out mode, and the maddening thing is that if you use the built in amplifiers, the Denon is spectacularly shielded against noise coming into the AVR via HDMI ground loops, but if you use the RCA preamp outs, that literally goes out the window.

So I would ask, is the noise/hiss still there if you use the on board amps instead of using pre-outs to your amplifiers? If it's not then they never fixed this issue and it's still present two generations later. My solution (which I don't like one bit) has been to use a pair of Rolls "Buzz Off" in-line RCA noise filters. They are able to isolate and cut out the noise that comes in from the HTPC.

The other option would be an HDMI ground isolator, but they are kind of an obscure product and not cheap.

 

[popej]

Do you use the same power socket for all components? Maybe some noise is introduced because of different ground connection.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Do you use the same power socket for all components? Maybe some noise is introduced because of different ground connection.

Not sure if you were replying to the OP or me, but no, I've tried different power outlets and even separating the HTPC and AVR onto their own separate power line conditioners, makes no difference. The PC injects noise via the HDMI input on the receiver and it infects the AVR if you're using pre-outs.

That's just my setup though, curious to see what OP says.

 

[d3miller]

Question for you..

Are you running an HTPC or any PC into the AVR via HDMI?

The reason I ask is that I use one with my x3700h and I am also using preamp out mode, and the maddening thing is that if you use the built in amplifiers, the Denon is spectacularly shielded against noise coming into the AVR via HDMI ground loops, but if you use the RCA preamp outs, that literally goes out the window.

So I would ask, is the noise/hiss still there if you use the on board amps instead of using pre-outs to your amplifiers? If it's not then they never fixed this issue and it's still present two generations later. My solution (which I don't like one bit) has been to use a pair of Rolls "Buzz Off" in-line RCA noise filters. They are able to isolate and cut out the noise that comes in from the HTPC.

The other option would be an HDMI ground isolator, but they are kind of an obscure product and not cheap.

I connected my speakers up to the onboard amps and it's astonishingly silent. Even quieter than my previous Marantz 7706 + external amps w/XLR cables.

The only HDMI connections I have are Apple TV 4k and a Sony Bluray player, then an HDMI out for Zone 2 connected to a PC monitor. I'll try unplugging some/all and see what happens.

I also ordered an in-line RCA noise filter (Harrison Labs 12dB attenuator). Will report back on that once they arrive next week.

Do you use the same power socket for all components? Maybe some noise is introduced because of different ground connection.

Yes, same socket and power strip! Basically everything the same as with my previous Marantz (except for using RCA instead of XLR cables), so I'm pretty sure it's the Denon.

 

[DenonMate]

Hi folks,
I recently purchased the 3900h to replace my Marantz AV7706, basically for Dirac ART. My plan was to run it in pre-out mode, which I did (set this for all the connected speakers). However, I'm noticing a significant amount of noise/hiss coming out of my speakers when running in preamp mode. Much more than was present with my Marantz, maybe due to RCA vs XRL? But it's only a 3' RCA... The noise isn't there when I unplug the RCAs from the Denon. There is no change with volume or even muting; it's ever-present. Wondering if anyone here experiencing similar with the 3900h.

To troubleshoot I then switched all my speakers over to the integrated amps just to see what would happen, and now there's complete silence! So now I'm question the whole separates approach and if I should just go this route and get rid of my external amps as the Denon seems to drive my speakers well enough with some basic testing. And I'm not sure if I'd even hear an audible difference between the Denon amps vs pre-out mode+external amps (assuming I'm able to address the speaker noise/hiss).

In case it's helpful, a few more details:
Bed layer amp: Outlaw 5000x
Atmos amp: Emotiva BasX A4
RCA Cables: Blue Jeans LC-1, 3'
I get the exact same noise coming out of both amps, so it must be something at the preout stage.

The same here with X4700h in full preamp mode. First the hiss was on SBR and FL and pretty loud. It’s no grounding. It’s hiss and even there when muted and independent from the volume. I changed a few wires and sorted a bit (more space between the cables). I went back from my cat8 network cable to cat5e without metal (could be a reason). Now it’s gone from SBR and much more silent on FL, but it’s still there. I checked it all. It’s definitely coming from the hdmi section of the denon. I’m still looking for a solution.
So think about it twice. the denons are no preamps with its narrow rca section.

 

[d3miller]

The same here with X4700h in full preamp mode. First the hiss was on SBR and FL and pretty loud. It’s no grounding. It’s hiss and even there when muted and independent from the volume. I changed a few wires and sorted a bit (more space between the cables). I went back from my cat8 network cable to cat5e without metal (could be a reason). Now it’s gone from SBR and much more silent on FL, but it’s still there. I checked it all. It’s definitely coming from the hdmi section of the denon. I’m still looking for a solution.
So think about it twice. the denons are no preamps with its narrow rca section.

This actually reflects my experience as well (I think). When I first hooked things up I don't recall hearing this at all. Then I plugged in some other things, began working on calibration, etc., then I noticed it. I could have swore it wasn't there initially, but maybe it was all in my head and I didn't hear it until I began more critical listening when running my Dirac sweeps.

Yeah, for now my solution is just use the integrated amps. There is a silver lining for me here--I would have never tried out the integrated amps had I not experience this. The integrated amps seem to perform well enough as I don't notice any audible degradation vs my previous separates approach. I can also clean up my rack a bit and maybe get some money back selling my amps. This will also eliminates some low-level hum coming form the external amps. Not done yet though troubleshooting all this though...