Denon avr-x3900h preamp measurements

[peng]

Hi @Toni71, you're very welcome! It has been so fun being involved in some testing and learning from members what I can do to improve my testing method. I just started listening to the Denon x3900h a couple days ago and I am very excited about the way it sounds! I am having that experience of hearing new things in recordings I've listened to many times. The goosebumps are running wild as I experience new things in the content I already love!


Something interesting I've found so far is that it tends to keep the mixing preset that you select even if there is a more optimal preset available. For instance, I was streaming TrueHD Atmos content to the receiver, but had it set to stereo with Dolby surround upmixing enabled. Instead of instantly railroading the mixing preset to Atmos, the mixer kept using the Dolby surround upmixer. I had to change the mixer preset to Atmos, which then decoded as it should have. This is an interesting change from the x3700h which would automatically decode Atmos content with the atmos mixer preset. It could be seen as an inconvenience, but I see it as the system trusting me to set a mixing preset that I enjoy and experimenting to find what I enjoy. It seems that you can even choose to listen to just the TrueHD bed channels if you so desire.


I've included a walkthrough of the rest of my systems signal path below if interested.


I have one 10 channel (5.1.4) path for proprietary formats such as Dolby Atmos, DTS:X. The other path is 5 Topping D30 stereo DACs that provide direct discrete-channel accessibility to height channels (and all other channels) through some Lynx AES16 sound cards that I have in a couple of my computers. I use extron MVX VGA and MAV Plus 1616 switchers to switch all of the AES connections. 6 channels per VGA connection and a set of 12 channels over 2 VGA connections per source. The 1616 works as a 32 in 32 out patchbay, for sources from stereo to 5.1.4. It works literally flawlessly for me, not a single hiccup since the day I started using them.


The Topping D30 path is used for playing older (directsound 3d and openal supported) games using OpenAL Soft with ambisonic decoding using the IEM Suite and JACK2 for windows for audio transport. I also buy some spatial recorded music from TRPTK and can play their native 5.1.4 recordings this way, though only up to 192khz, which is plenty for me.


Once the audio is converted to analog by either the Denon x3900h or the Topping D30 DACs, it goes into a set of two Radial SW8 machines to be switched to a single output. The Denon x3000 series have a trigger out that I use to automate the switching. When the Denon turns on, the Radial SW8 machines click to the input which is connected to the Denon. I used a single pole, dual throw relay to convert the 12v trigger into a normally open signal path (closes when trigger is active) to emulate the Radial SW8 “foot switch” for its 6.35mm TS port. The Radial SW8 can be connected to additional SW8 units, so I was able to achieve 16 channel switching.


After the switching, I had been using a Emotiva UMC-1 for volume control (channels 9-10 controlled through the zone2 function) for the last 13 or so years. I recognized that this was a bottleneck in my system and have just recently upgraded to the Motu 16A for volume control. The difference is phenomenal. The Emotiva had a forced signal floor where anything below some decibel level was dropped off. When listening to C418's “Key” in a previous iteration of my sound system which was redesigned to use JBL 308P MK3 speakers (currently use ELAC DB63), I found that the subtle, gradient rise and fall of the volume of content was reduced to cutting in when the volume was above a threshold and falling to silence below that threshold. Ever since that moment of discovery, I had been looking for a new volume control device. The Motu 16A has met my expectations and hopes as a practically unlimiting quality volume control device for 16 channels of audio (-114dB THD+N). Yes, it introduces another AD-DA round trip, but the alternative was the SPL MC16, which is far too rich for my current income (for a single function) and lacks an automation interface. I am still working on automating the Motu 16A, but it is supposed to be controllable by JSON over HTTP, basically editing an online text file to change settings in the Motu 16A unit. Once this is working, I'll pair it to my existing UMC-1 remote control using a FLIRC IR device and mini computer.


After volume control, the signal goes through a set of Radial LX8 line level splitters. The direct output goes to amplifiers (Pioneer VSX-59TXi [I know this is another bottleneck, but it is a project for another year] and Dayton Audio APA150 for channels 9-10) and the auxiliary output goes to a pair of Rolls RM82 mixers that are currently bonded into one 16 channel mono mixer for the sub. My sub is an old Paradigm Cinema-CT. But the future plan is to un-bond the Rolls RM82 mixers for stereo subs. I'll probably be getting a pair of Dayton Audio CS800 subs in a year or so. I created this signal chain because I wasn't satisfied with how my original receiver handled mixing for the sub woofer with my system. I like to play psychological horror and survival horror games, the bass content is very important to the suspense and shock of the scenarios. Akira Yamaoka's soundtracks of the Silent Hill titles just don't have as much force when the sub is idle.


I am now excited to say that I've reached my new benchmark of audio performance in my audio system. The spatial cues in the Elden Ring soundtrack (specifically “Caelid” and “Catacombs”) are exciting to experience in their new, improved precision. I've only listened to music for 8 or so hours so far, but I am thrilled at the possibilities for new content unlocked with every song I'll listen to.


Thanks for reading about my system setup. (anyone)Let me know if you have any comments or questions about anything in this walk through, I'd be happy to read and or answer them.


Alex

Thanks, it is subjective, but at least your measurements did show the X3900H in in the truly transparent territory if used as preamp/dac. That FR graph anomaly when 44.1 kHz sampling rate was used, was most likely a RMAA software related thing, not a hardware (X3900H) issue that imo, nothing to worry about.

 

[Marc v E]

Thank you very much for taking the time editing, that helps. As I said before it is fine to agree to disagree so I won't continue on that discussion but would like to suggest something that one could try, when fact checking AI, in this case using that same ChatGPT session you have had, if you ask a follow up question such as: please cite or link the specific thread/posts that claimed 10 dB difference when using 48 kHz sampling rate vs 44.1 kHz sampling rate for the frequency response test, and do not refer to forum post claims that did not include actual measurements, as i could not find any such post. If you do that, I can guarantee ChatGPT will change its tune.

Again, this has nothing to do with the topic we discussed, but it just convenience to use it as an example on how, if we want to make good use of AI on something like this, we have to, and you clearly agreed, that we have to "double check" them. If we just ask a question and take their answer, we may or may not get too far with facts based answers from them but push back and insist on facts based response, we may/could get closer.

No worries. Agreed.

 

[Miker 1102]

When Amir review/measure the 3900, I hope he will include the one that he typically (almost always but not every time) would do, that is the SINAD vs frequency.
The AVR-X4800H and Cinema 40 did very bad relative to the AVR-X3700H, X3600H that use the AK4458 DAC IC, the rest of the parts such as the volume IC, opamps remain the same so the DAC is the one that really made a big difference, though as mentioned many time by other members, audibility may not be an issue.

I am using the Cinema 40 for reference, the numbers/graphs are almost the same as the AVR-X4800H but it costs a lot more and is clearly better build so imo it is a better reference:

View attachment 537241

For comparison, here's the AVR-X3700 that uses the AK4458 DAC chip:

View attachment 537242

We can see the significant deterioration going from the AVR-X3700H to the Cinema 40 in SINAD even in test frequencies at below 2,000 Hz, comparing the red curves.

Again, hopefully the AVR-X3900, Cinema 51/41 (the model numbers are assumed as nothing has been announced yet), will bring the SINAD vs Frequency back to where the Denon 3000/4000 AVRs performance level.

This is my hope with the 3900.

 

[Toni71]

Thank you, Alex. That's promising to read. I installed mine (without correction yet) here last weekend.

On a side note, I thought I was somewhat of an audio nerd (that's what my friends and family call me) for constantly changing and owning too much audio gear across two setups. But your gear and the energy you've put into this confirmed me I am just an amateur . I'm sure it sounds great. Wishing you many enjoyable listening hours.

 

[peng]

This is my hope with the 3900.

You have now seen one set of measurement results by @alex.schroedsen so I guess we can remain hopeful, that Amir's would show similarly good results.

 

[Power Pop 23]

@amirm,

An earlier posting suggests a Denon AVR-X3900H AVR/AVP is in the queue for measurement.

If true, consider moving any Denon '3900' to the head of the line.

After the measurements of the Topping DX1 II, measuring a Denon '3900' may be the most-anticipated product review at ASR.

 

[Miker 1102]

@amirm,

An earlier posting suggests a Denon AVR-X3900H AVR/AVP is in the queue for measurement.

If true, consider moving any Denon '3900' to the head of the line.

After the measurements of the Topping DX1 II, measuring a Denon '3900' may be the most-anticipated product review at ASR.

I keep checking for a review myself.

 

[Ruediger]

After the measurements of the Topping DX1 II, measuring a Denon '3900' may be the most-anticipated product review at ASR.

Absolutely. I guess this one could make it on the shortlist of many home theater / AVR users.

Price already came down a little bit. 1500 € currently here.

 

[Koldur]

Absolutely. I guess this one could make it on the shortlist of many home theater / AVR users.

Price already came down a little bit. 1500 € currently here.

I bought one for €1149 (they offer it at 1499 in the Netherlands, but contacting stores gets you quite the discount) coming from an X3300W as I wanted multiple profiles, Heos for radio, eARC and PAL60 sound support.
I really enjoy the device,way faster and easier UI, plus the things I was after.

 

[Smithg97]

I currently own a x3700h and considering upgrading to x3900h as my x3700h has just 1x HDMI 2.1 input and I'm relying on a Denon AVS-3 switch to manage inputs to this port which has it's own quirks, additionally i understand the HDMI 2.1 ports on the x3900h are full fat 48gbps rather than the 40gbps on the x3700h which i believe allows for 12 bit 4K 120Hz VRR (with VRR on the x3900h also AMD FreeSync compatible). Question is whether the DAC is expected to make a perceptible difference to the sound quality and whether the Atmos channel expander is meaningful (currently running 7.2.4 with TDAI-1120 acting as power amp for Front L/R) and whether I'd make use of Auro 3D which isn't featured in the x3700h........has anyone on the forum made the jump from x3700h to x3900h and can share their thoughts on whether it was worthwhile?

 

[Insearchofthedream]

I went from a 12 year old denon 4200w to the denon 3900h last week. I have a pretty basic 7.1 setup.

The things I noticed - positives & negatives:

(+) The setup interface looks way nicer & high res
(+) Sound is way better - but only if you use the audessy app. With standard audessy xt32 I felt the sound was muffled, but set to cap at 400Hz & avoid the mid range cut - now really nice, much more sparkly. App not available on the 4200w.
(+) Backlit remote. Like that more than I though I would.
(+) Like the visualisation of the channel output in real time - nice when setting up.

(-) looks exactly the same as my 12 year old box.
(-) HDMI failing on my primary source (nVidia shield) - the high speed options for video out all just corrupt the output in crazy & varied ways. Can only be ran at 4k 60hz (standard mode - no HDR). Seeing reports from others of the same thing.

Overall I like the box & am happy with it, hoping that the HDR options for high bitrate get fixed by a future firmware update.

I've had my box replaced by the retailer - so 2x 3900's have the issue I'm seeing, plus multiple other reportees of similar issues in a seperate thread - looks like an early days 'feature'

 

[Smithg97]

I went from a 12 year old denon 4200w to the denon 3900h last week. I have a pretty basic 7.1 setup.

The things I noticed - positives & negatives:

(+) The setup interface looks way nicer & high res
(+) Sound is way better - but only if you use the audessy app. With standard audessy xt32 I felt the sound was muffled, but set to cap at 400Hz & avoid the mid range cut - now really nice, much more sparkly. App not available on the 4200w.
(+) Backlit remote. Like that more than I though I would.
(+) Like the visualisation of the channel output in real time - nice when setting up.

(-) looks exactly the same as my 12 year old box.
(-) HDMI failing on my primary source (nVidia shield) - the high speed options for video out all just corrupt the output in crazy & varied ways. Can only be ran at 4k 60hz (standard mode - no HDR). Seeing reports from others of the same thing.

Overall I like the box & am happy with it, hoping that the HDR options for high bitrate get fixed by a future firmware update.

I've had my box replaced by the retailer - so 2x 3900's have the issue I'm seeing, plus multiple other reportees of similar issues in a seperate thread - looks like an early days 'feature'

Sounds like your upgrade was quite significant given the age of previous AVR! Do you know if the HDMI handshake issue is specifically for the shield or is it also affecting other similar devices (E.g. UGOOS AM6b+)? Do make sure you try OCA A1 room calibration as it make an enormous improvement to my HT sound (more than upgrading my speakers from Klipsch to Arendal)

 

[Smithg97]

On the subject of OCA's A1 Evo does anyone know whether it would be possible to use the same calibration file i have on my X3700H if i were to upgrade to the X3900H or would i need to re-run the process? I ask as the current calibration i have sounds very good and even when conditions are identical the algorithm can seem to produce different results with each attempt at calibration so keen to keep my current calibration (A1 Evo acoustica) and port it over to the X3900H should i pull the trigger on an upgrade

 

[EWL5]

On the subject of OCA's A1 Evo does anyone know whether it would be possible to use the same calibration file i have on my X3700H if i were to upgrade to the X3900H or would i need to re-run the process? I ask as the current calibration i have sounds very good and even when conditions are identical the algorithm can seem to produce different results with each attempt at calibration so keen to keep my current calibration (A1 Evo acoustica) and port it over to the X3900H should i pull the trigger on an upgrade

I would re-run if for no other reason, to take advantage of new features like Directional Bass.

 

[Smithg97]

I would re-run if for no other reason, to take advantage of new features like Directional Bass.

Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't Acoustica leverage the directional bass feature?

 

[EWL5]

Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't Acoustica leverage the directional bass feature?

I'm not familiar w/anything A1 related. I just know "Directional Bass" was a new feature starting w/the 3800.

I use Dirac RC so Directional Bass from Denon is ignored.

 

[Smithg97]

I'm not familiar w/anything A1 related. I just know "Directional Bass" was a new feature starting w/the 3800.

I use Dirac RC so Directional Bass from Denon is ignored.

Ah i see, apologies, i thought that the x3700H had this capability also due to multiple sub pre-outs but upon further looking seems like you're right it was only launched with the x3800H era and newer - do you know if this directional bass capability makes a big difference?

 

[EWL5]

Ah i see, apologies, i thought that the x3700H had this capability also due to multiple sub pre-outs but upon further looking seems like you're right it was only launched with the x3800H era and newer - do you know if this directional bass capability makes a big difference?

I would imagine so as it's in newer RC tech and Dirac has its own take on it within ART.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

So, x3700h still undefeated looks like? Lmao. I'm planning on buying the MultEQ-X software this year for my ancient x3700h, looks like that's still the play, almost nothing has changed since 2019.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Ah i see, apologies, i thought that the x3700H had this capability also due to multiple sub pre-outs but upon further looking seems like you're right it was only launched with the x3800H era and newer - do you know if this directional bass capability makes a big difference?

We spent decades laboring under the assumption that bass was omnidirectional, now when they run out of new shit to market to people, suddenly it's directional. Some bass above a certain frequency is directional, but you're supposed to have speakers that can already produce that bass. Some deep bass can sound different depending on seating position if your room is very active with room modes, but again, that's something people are supposed to be addressing with practices like "sub crawls" and other placement hacks.

Most of this stuff is marketing shlock, nothing impressive has happened in surround sound in 10+ years, including Atmos, which almost always sounds worse than DTS-MA.