Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[Vincentponcet]

It drops to 75 dB at 2 V, and that's in non preamp mode. It's not dramatic if you compare with its cousins such as the AV7705 that is a "separate" prepro.

Yeah but then, why adding a 104db SINAD amp to replace a 87db SINAD integrated amp, if it is to use it when the integrated DAC is at 75db SINAD ?
A full preamp mode is expensive when going even to 5.1.4.
It sounded more cost effective to get an external amp, like the audiophonics 3 channels at 2,000 euros just for LCR and using the integrated one for the remaining channels.
Is it still a valuable option with the combo low gain of the Audiophonics/ low output of the Denon ?

 

[peng]

Yeah but then, why adding a 104db SINAD amp to replace a 87db SINAD integrated amp, if it is to use it when the integrated DAC is at 75db SINAD ?
A full preamp mode is expensive when going even to 5.1.4.
It sounded more cost effective to get an external amp, like the audiophonics 3 channels at 2,000 euros just for LCR and using the integrated one for the remaining channels.
Is it still a valuable option with the combo low gain of the Audiophonics/ low output of the Denon ?

That, I agree..
.

 

[peng]

It’s a simple matter of not having the signal clip. Either you do that by cutting the high parts, or by boosting the low parts. In the latter cast, you’ll need to lower your gain to prevent clipping. Effectively that makes both method equivalent.

We are just talking about RC/REQ so I can't see your logic in this loss of headroom talk. If you simply cut the peaks to level the response you don't lose headroom as such, though you do lose spl, and that's the user's choice!

By the way, that's something that applies to not only Dirac but other RC softare too, and that's the point I made to Dj7675.

 

[voodooless]

We are just talking about RC/REQ so I can't see your logic in this loss of headroom talk. If you simply cut the peaks to level the response you don't lose headroom as such, though you do lose spl, and that's the user's choice!

What’s the difference? That loss of gain, you’ll never get back. It also means you can’t play as loud as before, because more power will be spend in corrections.

By the way, that's something that applies to not only Dirac but other RC softare too, and that's the point I made to Dj7675.

Sure, it applies to all processing.

 

[peng]

What’s the difference? That loss of gain, you’ll never get back. It also means you can’t play as loud as before, because more power will be spend in corrections.

Sure, it applies to all processing.

That's better, at least now you are talking about gain, not headroom..

Minor detail, it's not really a loss of gain either, but loss of spl for that specific frequency point, range affected by the applied cut that is intentional.

Loss of gain would imply a full range cut. Even then, strictly/technically speaking it isn't a loss if it it is intentional; and it would be like turning down the volume.

 

[voodooless]

That's better, at least now you are talking about gain, not headroom..

What is your definition of headroom? There can be many.

Minor detail, it's not really a loss of gain either, but loss of spl for that specific frequency point, range affected by the applied cut that is intentional.

Loss of gain would imply a full range cut. Even then, strictly speaking it isn't a loss if it it is intentional; and it would be like turning down the volume.

For your ears it is like full range cut though in many cases. And yes, it is loss. The intention is to correct response, not change perceived gain. The lower gain is just a side effect of the processing needed to reach that goal.

You’ll need to turn up the volume knob to compensate, or actually with a more ore less calibrated AVR volume control, I would actually expect to not need to do that, since it should adapt to the room correction gain. Looks like this does not happen in many cases?

 

[peng]

What is your definition of headroom? There can be many.

For your ears it is like full range cut though in many cases. And yes, it is loss. The intention is to correct response, not change perceived gain. The lower gain is just a side effect of the processing needed to reach that goal.

You’ll need to turn up the volume knob to compensate, or actually with a more ore less calibrated AVR volume control, I would actually expect to not need to do that, since it should adapt to the room correction gain. Looks like this does not happen in many cases?

Yes, you can of course call it "gain", for the specific frequency points as opposed to the gain spec of amps .

Again, you started on a different though related topic. Dj and I were discussing Dirac Live's effect on the apparent loss in spl at a given mv that he experienced but I didn't. That's why I didn't quite follow in the beginning.

 

[Fosi Audio]

Apart from HDMI or you think there even are to many HDMI inputs?

HDMI is OK, I just think there are too many RCAs.

 

[Fosi Audio]

AVR is created to be the central of your home audio/theatre system. You're expected to connect every source in it. At enthusiast level it could easily be 3-4 or more inputs, and to make sure you can cover large customer base you need to add almost all common inputs.

I need 5 HDMI input now (1 xbox, 1 ps5, 1 switch, 1 bluray player, 1 streamer), will probably need 1 more (apple tv), and I am not even an "enthusiast"

Thank you for your feedback, it is really healpful.

But I will such as listning to music and watch movies in my living room, but when I want to play games, I will go to my bedroom. I mean, yes, I will have ps5, bluray player, and tv, but they will happen in different setups. So I prefer not to add a huge monster to my setups.

 

[Fosi Audio]

Why don't you open a separate thread with some kind of poll to collect more information?

Good idea, thanks.

 

[Trell]

Good idea, thanks.

I think it would be a good idea to make that poll multiple choice so one can select the inputs and possible numbers of them as well.

 

[RF Air]

https://downloads.denon.com/documentmaster/us/denon avr-x4700h and avr-x3600h bench test analysis_7th_ july 2020_denon enginee.pdf

I found this 2020 webpage from Denon that compares test results to verify the new AVR X4700H exceeded or equaled the X3600H Model. I found it interesting the comparison document was affirming the new AVR was an improvement over the standard specs. Somehow this important philosophy has been shelved for the current 2022 product release. I side with @amirm that the regression of performance, even with the added features in the 3800 is disappointing. I am hoping that the new X4800H (which I think I've read has been slated for release in March 2023) will be improved upon with DAC's that exceed the X3800H performance. Wishful thinking, I know.

Part of my wishful thinking for the improvement is influenced by the X4800H Production is at the Shirakawa Facility which is touted by Denon to be "Special". The delayed release time may also indicate a production delay that may coincide with DAC availability, again, just a supposition of hope. The Flagship AVR-A1H, delayed as well, is built here with a different DAC as well (stating the obvious for all who are following this thread).

 

[dlaloum]

https://downloads.denon.com/documentmaster/us/denon avr-x4700h and avr-x3600h bench test analysis_7th_ july 2020_denon enginee.pdf

I found this 2020 webpage from Denon that compares test results to verify the new AVR X4700H exceeded or equaled the X3600H Model. I found it interesting the comparison document was affirming the new AVR was an improvement over the standard specs. Somehow this important philosophy has been shelved for the current 2022 product release. I side with @amirm that the regression of performance, even with the added features in the 3800 is disappointing. I am hoping that the new X4800H (which I think I've read has been slated for release in March 2023) will be improved upon with DAC's that exceed the X3800H performance. Wishful thinking, I know.

Part of my wishful thinking for the improvement is influenced by the X4800H Production is at the Shirakawa Facility which is touted by Denon to be "Special". The delayed release time may also indicate a production delay that may coincide with DAC availability, again, just a supposition of hope. The Flagship AVR-A1H, delayed as well, is built here with a different DAC as well (stating the obvious for all who are following this thread).

They already advertised the full specs for the X4800... sadly, using the same DAC's as the X3800

 

[peng]

What’s the difference? That loss of gain, you’ll never get back. It also means you can’t play as loud as before, because more power will be spend in corrections.

Sure, it applies to all processing.

I don't know how else I could make you understand my point but I'll try again.. The loss of spl would be due to the unwanted peaks such as those from room gain, resonance etc. etc.. At all the other frequencies you don't apply cuts to flatten the response, there would be no loss. So the difference is, loss of gain due to replacing an amp with one that has lower gain/amplification ratio or turning down the volume dial etc. Loss of "gain" due to the intentional cuts of the unwanted "gains" from the room, speaker's FR characteristics etc., is not across the board but only at the frequency points, and/or range where cuts are applied. As to "you'll never get back, well if I wanted to get it back I would have applied such cuts to begin with. If for some reason, I want to get it back then I would turn the volume up and in that case it is not a matter of losing head room, in the sense that every time you turn the volume up you can't say you lose headroom anyway.

If you still have trouble seeing my point, sorry I can't do any better.

 

[voodooless]

I don't know how else I could make you understand my point but I'll try again.. The loss of spl would be due to the unwanted peaks such as those from room gain, resonance etc. etc.. At all the other frequencies you don't apply cuts to flatten the response, there would be no loss.

If you assume that only cuts are made, you are correct. But in reality, this is not the case. Significant boosts are made. And anytime you boost, you'll need to compensate for that by lowering the total gain so you won't get clipping. If Dirac would only cut, it would not need to lower the gain

Here is my Dirac compensation for a desktop:

Don't mind the bass boost, that's my personal preference. If my curve were flat, I'd still have significant cuts and boosts. If I boost by 6dB, I'll need to lower the global gain by at least that much to prevent digital clipping.

 

[peng]

If you assume that only cuts are made, you are correct. But in reality, this is not the case. Significant boosts are made. And anytime you boost, you'll need to compensate for that by lowering the total gain so you won't get clipping. If Dirac would only cut, it would not need to lower the gain

Here is my Dirac compensation for you desktop:

View attachment 243298
Don't mind the bass boost, that's my personal preference. If my curve were flat, I'd still have significant cuts and boosts. If I boost by 6dB, I'll need to lower the global gain by at least that much to prevent digital clipping.

Great, now we understand each other's points, mine referred to cuts along..

 

[cesjr02]

I decided to pick up a second-hand X3600H as a stop-gap. I'm not a gamer so I don't need 4k/120Hz. The X3800H's promise of Dirac is, at the moment of writing, just that.

The X3600H should suit me well for the next few years at least, and be a worthy upgrade over my 2011 Denon AVR-1612.

 

[RF Air]

They already advertised the full specs for the X4800... sadly, using the same DAC's as the X3800

I think the only other metric of hope is the new amplifier architecture which may offer some improvement over the past model 4700 and the current 3800H. Of course the benefit of a Jitter Chip, larger PS and 125 Watt Rated Amps are some benefit, but still; DAC's bottleneck the Fidelity which is still disappointing. Maybe the Japan production team has the "magic" to make something better happen. (Setting myself up for disappointment, I know...)

 

[peng]

I think the only other metric of hope is the new amplifier architecture which may offer some improvement over the past model 4700 and the current 3800H. Of course the benefit of a Jitter Chip, larger PS and 125 Watt Rated Amps are some benefit, but still; DAC's bottleneck the Fidelity which is still disappointing. Maybe the Japan production team has the "magic" to make something better happen. (Setting myself up for disappointment, I know...)

That's would be anybody's guess as they don't provide details other than what's in the product info sheet and owner's manual. Based on those available information, and recent history, my best guess (just my own) is that I would not expect "new amplifier architecture...". The 125 W rated output into 8 ohms, power consumption figure, distortion specs, snr etc., specs appear to be the same as the 2020 models. As for the DAC, I would hope that by the time the X4800H is ready for production, the AK4458 will be available and have no shortage, then they might just go back to the original DAC board but now that's just my own wishful thinking.

 

[RF Air]

That's would be anybody's guess as they don't provide details other than what's in the product info sheet and owner's manual. Based on those available information, and recent history, my best guess (just my own) is that I would not expect "new amplifier architecture...". The 125 W rated output into 8 ohms, power consumption figure, distortion specs, snr etc., specs appear to be the same as the 2020 models. As for the DAC, I would hope that by the time the X4800H is ready for production, the AK4458 will be available and have no shortage, then they might just go back to the original DAC board but now that's just my own wishful thinking.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/denon-2022_28-scaled-jpg.233492/

Hi @peng
I attached the French Spec Sheet that was posted earlier in this thread regarding the Amplifier section. This was somewhat exciting to me believing that this was the style of construction used for the Flagship A1H in the upcoming release. Here is another French sheet that was posted in the thread earlier:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/denon-2022_26-scaled-jpg.233490/

With the delay of the Japan built product models, perhaps it may be the case that the AKM DAC's are the delay which would boast well for Denon if they are committed (as we would expect) to provide a "Master Tuned" Shirakawa built AVR.