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Denon AVR-X3800H Review

Rate this AVR

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 83 18.8%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 207 46.8%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 120 27.1%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 32 7.2%

  • Total voters
    442

beren777

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The reason so many of us use external amps with our AVR is frankly the internal amp sections are not built to support low impedance swings that most speakers present. If you spend a bit of money on quality speakers it makes sense to consider using quality external amplification to unleash the best speaker performance.

I used to believe this, but is it true with modern decent quality AVRs in typical home listening spaces? Consider the power vs distortion at 4 Ohm for the 3800H. Granted this is just two channel and multi-channel is going to give you less effective watts, but how many watts do you need at your usual listening levels, or even at peak level? Is the distortion audible? I personally don't need to worry about distortion above 9kHz, I'll never hear it anyway.

Say I have a speaker with the impedance curve of a Revel F208. It dips below 4 Ohms in three ranges: 70Hz to about 150Hz, about 2.5kHz to 3.5kHz, and above 9kHz. If I never need more than 50 watts per channel (for L/C/R, I assume less for surround), am I going to notice an audible difference between the Denon 3800H built-in amplifiers, and a Purifi or Hypex alternative?

index.php
 

Narnian

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Hello Narnian, would you consider purchasing the 4800 if it were released and what performance results would be acceptable for you? I ask because I am waiting to purchase as well. Thanks
The listening results of the 3800H are acceptable to me at the moment as the issues are not audible to me. The 3800H blew my budget so it is unlikely I would get a 4800H at this time.

Also if I upgrade to a 4800H I sort of reward Denon by giving them even more money. Switching to Marantz would not fix it either since they’re are owned by the same parent company.
 

amper42

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I do not listen to music or movies loud so I expect it will be fine. Both are blasting above my comfort level at -20db. But at least I have the ability to upgrade later if needed.

As to running the FrontB through the pre-outs I puzzled that and discovered it is sending the FrontB signal to the regular front pre-outs, not the height speaker pre-outs as you already know. So it is possible but you would need to add a switch or something which starts to kill the benefit.

Yes, Denon pre-outs don't work with the FrontB amp assign. I thought of running a "Y" cable off front pre-out but then Audyssey is unable to individually EQ both speakers. It got to the point where I gave up and went with 7.2.4 with pre-outs and Denon internal amps turned off. At -20db the audio is noticeably crisper with the Monolith 7x200. Action movie explosions and rocket launches are amazing. :D I rarely turn the volume above 65 on the Denon AVR.
 

amper42

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I used to believe this, but is it true with modern decent quality AVRs in typical home listening spaces? Consider the power vs distortion at 4 Ohm for the 3800H. Granted this is just two channel and multi-channel is going to give you less effective watts, but how many watts do you need at your usual listening levels, or even at peak level? Is the distortion audible? I personally don't need to worry about distortion above 9kHz, I'll never hear it anyway.

Say I have a speaker with the impedance curve of a Revel F208. It dips below 4 Ohms in three ranges: 70Hz to about 150Hz, about 2.5kHz to 3.5kHz, and above 9kHz. If I never need more than 50 watts per channel (for L/C/R, I assume less for surround), am I going to notice an audible difference between the Denon 3800H built-in amplifiers, and a Purifi or Hypex alternative?

index.php

I can certainly hear a difference with the Monolith 7x200 and all internal Denon amps disengaged with Preamp mode. The AVR runs amazingly cooler while the Monolith 7x200 offers an enhanced clarity I never experienced with the internal Denon amps. I listened to these configurations with the Revel F328Be and the BMR Towers. For even cleaner stereo sound I found using the RME ADI-2 DAC with a Purifi amp was even better. The RME ADI-2 is definitely my choice for stereo music sessions.
 

Narnian

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Yes, Denon pre-outs don't work with the FrontB amp assign. I thought of running a "Y" cable off front pre-out but then Audyssey is unable to individually EQ both speakers. It got to the point where I gave up and went with 7.2.4 with pre-outs and Denon internal amps turned off. At -20db the audio is noticeably crisper with the Monolith 7x200. Action movie explosions and rocket launches are amazing. :D I rarely turn the volume above 65 on the Denon AVR.
I wonder if you could do each one individually with Audyssey and use the presets to switch.
 

oivavoi

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I can certainly hear a difference with the Monolith 7x200 and all internal Denon amps disengaged with Preamp mode. The AVR runs amazingly cooler while the Monolith 7x200 offers an enhanced clarity I never experienced with the internal Denon amps. I listened to these configurations with the Revel F328Be and the BMR Towers. For even cleaner stereo sound I found using the RME ADI-2 DAC with a Purifi amp was even better. The RME ADI-2 is definitely my choice for stereo music sessions.
Sorry to be "that ASR guy", but how did you do these comparisons? Were they done A/B and volume matched, and did you do it sighted or unsighted? Asking because it is very easy to perceive a difference if you expect there to be a difference, even though the difference may not be real.

There is nevertheless a theoretical possibility that you go into soft clipping with the internal Denon amp, i.e. that your amp doesn't have enough power to drive all the peaks in the music (or movies) on your speakers. According to @Kvalsvoll who has done systematic investigations on this, under-powering musical peaks can lead to the sound being somewhat more dull or soft, even though he thought it was not super noticeable. This is not impossible, at least, given that the BMR towers are on the lower side when it comes to sensitivity (85 db if I recall correctly?). I struggle a bit to understand why you would perceive a difference with the RME dac, though, if you use the Denon AVR as a preamp in pure direct mode.
 

RF Air

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The listening results of the 3800H are acceptable to me at the moment as the issues are not audible to me. The 3800H blew my budget so it is unlikely I would get a 4800H at this time.

Also if I upgrade to a 4800H I sort of reward Denon by giving them even more money. Switching to Marantz would not fix it either since they’re are owned by the same parent company.
I see your point. I have doubts for improvement and believe I will be disappointed by the Test Results of the 4800H when it becomes available. Taking a wait and see and will determine what to do. I have had a very reliable 5.1 Denon for many years, difficult to see the trend of compromise of performance. Just not willing to spend Bozo Bucks on a Flagship when I have External Amps for the "5" and need AVR Amps for Atmos. The 4 Subs is also a catch for me, looking to add 2 more Subs to my set. Thank's for responding.
 

SDX-LV

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FAIL. Sound United, you burned your reputation for what?

I was literally just waiting for some free cash to buy X3800, but after seeing such downgrade on key performance front - not only I am not itching to buy one as soon as I can, now I will look for something better instead. X3800 is already a lot more expensive than my current AVR, so finding a good alternative is not going to be easy, but I hope Onkyo or some other competitor releases something better - Denon set the margin so low, that I can just wait for a better product.

What a shame.

Note, Denon should really update the remote. I can easily buy a great OLED TV for 1000 USD with really nice remote, but these Denons for much more meney still come with the same remote that looked dated 10 years ago.
 

Jarmel

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So if I only have a PS5 going to a 4K TV and I’m not interested in Dirac (especially when its prob a late next year thing), does it make sense to do the X3700H refurbished especially now that it’s $999? I have two subwoofers and I need something that can EQ both of them.
 

dlaloum

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I used to believe this, but is it true with modern decent quality AVRs in typical home listening spaces? Consider the power vs distortion at 4 Ohm for the 3800H. Granted this is just two channel and multi-channel is going to give you less effective watts, but how many watts do you need at your usual listening levels, or even at peak level? Is the distortion audible? I personally don't need to worry about distortion above 9kHz, I'll never hear it anyway.

Say I have a speaker with the impedance curve of a Revel F208. It dips below 4 Ohms in three ranges: 70Hz to about 150Hz, about 2.5kHz to 3.5kHz, and above 9kHz. If I never need more than 50 watts per channel (for L/C/R, I assume less for surround), am I going to notice an audible difference between the Denon 3800H built-in amplifiers, and a Purifi or Hypex alternative?

index.php

There is no "general" answer.

My 4 ohm rated Gallo Ref 3.2's - drop to 3 ohm around 100Hz-125Hz, and down to 1.6 ohm up above 3kHz

On my 100W Integra DRX 3.4 (closest Onkyo family equivalent to the X3800) - the sound was best described as "muddled", confused, soundstage was poor, imagin poor, vocals hard to discern / understand.

Putting a Crown XLS2500 on the front L & R (so the matching center which also drops to 1.6ohm on the tweeter was on the AVR) - solved the problem immediately - the sound cleaned up totally....

My previous Integra DTR 70.4 - rated 140W@8ohm (measured 165W@8ohms 2 ch) but weighing just under 30kg as opposed to the DRX 3.4 at 10Kg... handled the same speakers OK - listening levels at MLP are 72db average... allowing for peaks of 20db ... 92db peak - so power is NOT the issue - that peak level can be achieved with 30W easy - it comes down to current - the old flagship Onkyo/Integra beasts had big transformers and loads of capacitance.... allowing them to drive low impedance speakers.

The Denon X3800, weighing in at 15kg probably has very similar current capability to the Onkyo RZ50.... (which is better than my current Integra DRX 3.4) - but probably would still not do well on speakers like mine.

So YES in many cases substantial and immediately noticeable improvements are available with external amps such as the Purifi or Hypex - and the gains are NOT usually power related, rather they are current and load handling related.

Sadly the key measurement to identify low impedance load capabilities... ie: power ratings at 2 ohm load - are seldom measured or provided by the manufacturers.
 

dlaloum

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Sorry to be "that ASR guy", but how did you do these comparisons? Were they done A/B and volume matched, and did you do it sighted or unsighted? Asking because it is very easy to perceive a difference if you expect there to be a difference, even though the difference may not be real.

There is nevertheless a theoretical possibility that you go into soft clipping with the internal Denon amp, i.e. that your amp doesn't have enough power to drive all the peaks in the music (or movies) on your speakers. According to @Kvalsvoll who has done systematic investigations on this, under-powering musical peaks can lead to the sound being somewhat more dull or soft, even though he thought it was not super noticeable. This is not impossible, at least, given that the BMR towers are on the lower side when it comes to sensitivity (85 db if I recall correctly?). I struggle a bit to understand why you would perceive a difference with the RME dac, though, if you use the Denon AVR as a preamp in pure direct mode.
My Speakers are 86db SPL - so also not very efficient, but not a concern as my usual average listening level is 72db @MLP.

In my experience, and with my speakers (1.6ohm above 3khz) - the lack of current manifests as a muddling/confusion of the sound along with loss of imaging/soudstage, and reduced clarity - they don't obviously "clip" - and I would not call the sound soft or dull.... but it may be a completely different constraint to what you are describing.
 

CyrusTheGreat_600BC

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There is no "general" answer.

My 4 ohm rated Gallo Ref 3.2's - drop to 3 ohm around 100Hz-125Hz, and down to 1.6 ohm up above 3kHz

On my 100W Integra DRX 3.4 (closest Onkyo family equivalent to the X3800) - the sound was best described as "muddled", confused, soundstage was poor, imagin poor, vocals hard to discern / understand.

Putting a Crown XLS2500 on the front L & R (so the matching center which also drops to 1.6ohm on the tweeter was on the AVR) - solved the problem immediately - the sound cleaned up totally....

My previous Integra DTR 70.4 - rated 140W@8ohm (measured 165W@8ohms 2 ch) but weighing just under 30kg as opposed to the DRX 3.4 at 10Kg... handled the same speakers OK - listening levels at MLP are 72db average... allowing for peaks of 20db ... 92db peak - so power is NOT the issue - that peak level can be achieved with 30W easy - it comes down to current - the old flagship Onkyo/Integra beasts had big transformers and loads of capacitance.... allowing them to drive low impedance speakers.

The Denon X3800, weighing in at 15kg probably has very similar current capability to the Onkyo RZ50.... (which is better than my current Integra DRX 3.4) - but probably would still not do well on speakers like mine.

So YES in many cases substantial and immediately noticeable improvements are available with external amps such as the Purifi or Hypex - and the gains are NOT usually power related, rather they are current and load handling related.

Sadly the key measurement to identify low impedance load capabilities... ie: power ratings at 2 ohm load - are seldom measured or provided by the manufacturers.
I have the 3.1s in one of my rooms, and you need to be careful with these speakers. The cylindrical piezoelectric twitter will change color from silver to brown when it’s underpowered or if the power is not clean. I use a high quality ATI 200Wpc amp with a toroidal transformer just for those with a SMSL DAC. Beautiful speakers nonetheless.
 

dlaloum

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I have the 3.1s in one of my rooms, and you need to be careful with these speakers. The cylindrical piezoelectric twitter will change color from silver to brown when it’s underpowered or if the power is not clean. I use a high quality ATI 200Wpc amp with a toroidal transformer just for those with a SMSL DAC. Beautiful speakers nonetheless.
According to Gallo the brown tarnish happens to all the CDT tweeters eventually - but does not affect performance. My 3 are showing no sign of tarnish (yet?)

Some have used TarnX on a QTip to remove the tarnish .... (I have not needed to seek out a solution so far)

It doesn't seem to be related to the "diet" you feed it. But they are very transparent, and will show up whatever they are fed.... quite revealing!
 

CyrusTheGreat_600BC

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According to Gallo the brown tarnish happens to all the CDT tweeters eventually - but does not affect performance. My 3 are showing no sign of tarnish (yet?)

Some have used TarnX on a QTip to remove the tarnish .... (I have not needed to seek out a solution so far)

It doesn't seem to be related to the "diet" you feed it. But they are very transparent, and will show up whatever they are fed.... quite revealing!
Mine did not get brown either, despite the old age, but my friend ran his with an AVR for a couple of years and those got brown very quickly. Same Florida weather. So, take it with a grain of salt when they say it’s not related to diet :)
 

Trepxe

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DENON, like Pioneer, has become a victim of mass production. I wouldn't trade my old AVC a11 for a new Denon, even though it wasn't a very well-made one.
 

Persik

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There is no "general" answer.

My 4 ohm rated Gallo Ref 3.2's - drop to 3 ohm around 100Hz-125Hz, and down to 1.6 ohm up above 3kHz

On my 100W Integra DRX 3.4 (closest Onkyo family equivalent to the X3800) - the sound was best described as "muddled", confused, soundstage was poor, imagin poor, vocals hard to discern / understand.

Putting a Crown XLS2500 on the front L & R (so the matching center which also drops to 1.6ohm on the tweeter was on the AVR) - solved the problem immediately - the sound cleaned up totally....

My previous Integra DTR 70.4 - rated 140W@8ohm (measured 165W@8ohms 2 ch) but weighing just under 30kg as opposed to the DRX 3.4 at 10Kg... handled the same speakers OK - listening levels at MLP are 72db average... allowing for peaks of 20db ... 92db peak - so power is NOT the issue - that peak level can be achieved with 30W easy - it comes down to current - the old flagship Onkyo/Integra beasts had big transformers and loads of capacitance.... allowing them to drive low impedance speakers.

The Denon X3800, weighing in at 15kg probably has very similar current capability to the Onkyo RZ50.... (which is better than my current Integra DRX 3.4) - but probably would still not do well on speakers like mine.

So YES in many cases substantial and immediately noticeable improvements are available with external amps such as the Purifi or Hypex - and the gains are NOT usually power related, rather they are current and load handling related.

Sadly the key measurement to identify low impedance load capabilities... ie: power ratings at 2 ohm load - are seldom measured or provided by the manufacturers.
I own a previous generation 3700, used with Emotiva speakers HT with T2+ fronts (all rated 4 Ohm).
Although, I was similarly concerned re: potentially insufficient power, I had never experienced any audible issues.
There are several things you could do to optimize power available:
turn off ECO mode,
configure AVR as it using 8 ohm speakers, not 4
configure speakers as "small" to enable bass management, i.e. diverting lower end to self powered subwoofer
finally, if not all amp terminals are utilized and you can bi-amp fronts, so you have plenty of power for stereo listening
All of the above (except of bi-amping) are considered "best practices", while bi-amping is more controversial, yet works very well for me

Cheers!
 

peng

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I used to believe this, but is it true with modern decent quality AVRs in typical home listening spaces?

Great question but hard to come up with a simple and clear answer. It depends what is "typical home listening spaces". In some countries/cities, it could be about 15X25X(8-10)or 12X18X8, or as small as 10X12X8 ft. So let me try this:

If we go by the THX select standard, then AVRs such as Denon 3000, Marantz 6000, series will be fine for most people, but those with truly 4 ohm nominal impedance, with frequent dips below 3 ohms can still benefit from external amps rated 200 W/300 W 8/4 ohms unless they don't listen loud at all, such as keeping their Denon or Marantz mv at below -20 (before auto setup/Audyssey).

THX Certified Select System which covers spaces up to 2,000 cubic feet in size, with a ~10 foot viewing distance from the screen.

Some, including whoever wrote the FAQ for Magneplan has provided some reasonable guidelines such as the quoted paragraph below:

From Magneplan FAQ:
Everyone understands they need plenty of power, but the role of power supply is not understood. There is one important concept you need to understand when shopping for an amplifier or receiver: and it is somewhat like understanding "good" and "bad" cholesterol. The ratio is very important. An Gold Standard for an amplifier would be to double the power at 4 ohms. This concept is important even if you are buying an 8 ohm speaker. If the amplifier is rated at 80 watts at 8 ohms, it should (ideally) produce 160 watts at 4 ohms (or close to it). None of the receivers will do that. However, this is the benchmark of a good amplifier design. A 10 watt amplifier that produces 20 watts at 4 ohms "speaks volumes" about the PHILOSOPHY of the designer. (But, of course, it does not tell you if a 10 watt amplifier is enough for your room.) In the final analysis, buy an amplifier that comes as close to doubling the power at 4 ohms as your budget will allow.

In my opinion, it is somewhat misleading though, at least the part I underlined. While it is true in a sense, in theory doubling down is near impossible in true term based on electrical principles unless regulated power supply (that will have its own cons) and other techniques are used; and in practical term manufacturers can easily de-rate the output into 8 ohm in order to show 2X the output at 4 ohm. The fact is, as long as the amplifier is truly rated for 4 ohm loads without resorting to switching rail voltage via selector switch, relays, electronic circuitry etc., then who cares if it doubles down or not. For example, will you take a 100 W/200 W 8/4 ohm rated amp over a 150 W/ 200 W 8/4 ohm one, all else being equal? The answer should be obvious.

Some will emphasize it is high current that counts, that kind of statement, while true, is also misleading because then someone could be led to think that a so called high current amp is better for his/her 4 ohm speakers with dips to 2 ohm. When in fact, he/she should just look for an amp that may not be advertised as high current, but has more current capability in absolute sense, than the so called high current one.

Example to demo this point is, take a look of the Harman Kardon AVRs, or receivers in the past that has the impressive 40 to 60 A instantaneous current specs such as the HK AVR630 and compared to a simple try and true Denon AVR-3805 and anyone who understand the basic electrical principles might laugh at HK's "high current" claims. I have the AVR-3805 and I know it was one of the very few AVR of its time that actually pass the 1 ohm load test, none of the HK AVR at that time period did!
 
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amper42

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My home theatre space is 28' x 24'. I use a 7.2.4 speaker configuration with the Denon 4700 AKM DAC. The Monolith 7x200 handles Fronts, Center, Surround, High1 and an Adcom GFA-7000 supports the rear surround and high2. I set Denon Amp assign to Preamp only mode. Denon 4700 power use drops to 46W instead of 185W with vol at 65. As the internal amps are not in use the 4700 runs much cooler. Of course, energy savings are not accomplished as external amps consume the power instead. But, the speakers sound cleaner and audibly crisper when using these external amps. Action movies shine. For example, the Interstellar 4K rocket launch is freaking amazing. The BMR Towers and HSU dual subs make it seem like you're right there.

https://www.amazon.com/InterStellar-4K-UltraHD-Blu-ray-Interstellar/dp/B0767FCYDW/

While it's not possible to AB the sound with the push of a button you can re-connect speaker cables from external amps to Denon and setup two Audyssey presets to switch between these configurations. The Monolith 7x200 is a beast compared to the Denon internal amps and it shows up in solid playback. It offers 3x the available power of the Denon 4700 internal amps with 7 channels in action. It's a totally different level of amplification. Explosions and extended rocket launches never sounded this clean with the internal amps. The receiver stays cool with never a hint of stress. Compare that to running with internal amps... it's a completely different load on the receiver and a pleasure to listen to.
 
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v0rtex

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Hey guys. I was planning on upgrade my Yamaha v681 to this new Denon for an upcoming 5.1.4 (vs my current 5.1.2) but the analysis and price of this product make me wonder.
Moreover, I don't know if it was mentionned but Dirac will be charge to customer not by Denon but through Dirac registration as mentionned on adioholics.com from an interview :

will need to go to dirac.com/denon or dirac.com/marantz to purchase a license key from Dirac to calibrate each AVR. Customers can purchase either a limited version or a full band-width. A MAC address will be needed. A license key for the limited version will cost $259 and the full-bandwidth version will cost $349
Total cost of this product with Dirac is very very high and I'll probably either wait later 2023 or see an alternative brand like Only or Pioneer that are now back in Europe.
 

peng

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My home theatre space is 28' x 24'. I use a 7.2.4 speaker configuration with the Denon 4700 AKM DAC. The Monolith 7x200 handles Fronts, Center, Surround, High1 and an Adcom GFA-7000 supports the rear surround and high2. I set Denon Amp assign to Preamp only mode. Denon 4700 power use drops to 46W instead of 185W with vol at 65. As the power rails are disconnected the 4700 runs much cooler. Of course, energy savings are not accomplished as external amps consume the power instead. But, the speakers sound cleaner and audibly crisper when using these external amps. Action movies shine. For example, the Interstellar 4K rocket launch is freaking amazing. The BMR Towers and HSU dual subs make it seem like you're right there.

https://www.amazon.com/InterStellar-4K-UltraHD-Blu-ray-Interstellar/dp/B0767FCYDW/

While it's not possible to AB the sound with the push of a button you can re-connect speaker cables from external amps to Denon and setup two Audyssey presets to switch between these configurations. The Monolith 7x200 is a beast compared to the Denon internal amps and it shows up in solid playback. It offers 3x the available power of the Denon 4700 internal amps with 7 channels in action. It's a totally different level of amplification. Explosions and extended rocket launches never sounded this clean with the internal amps. The receiver stays cool with never a hint of stress. Compare that to running with internal amps... it's a completely different load on the receiver and a pleasure to listen to.

Minor correction again, power rail is not disconnected, it ran cooler mainly because in preamp mode it will run in ECO mode automatically.
 
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