Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[Brambo67]

many people would use external amp with preout. That is one selling point of x3xxx and up. X2xxx and lower do not have preout

uhm no. people who spent $5000 buying x8500h/a usually spent money on a lot of amps as well. especially in home theatre setup.

people powering their LR with external amp is even more common. Having a good dac makes sense.

Yep, I agree. But people buying a 3800 probably wouldn't. I belong to the group buying a 4700 ánd indeed add an amp for L/R. In my case a Marantz MM7025. Performing probably in the same SINAD/THD+N and/or S/R region as my 4700. So; pragmatic and not spending >€ 4k for AVR and multiple that amount on amps. I guess when I belonged to the group of 'just want to have the best possible'-audiophiles I would have sourced Trinnov, Storm or anything else in that region. I guess my claim still stands. Of course I always make the disclaimer this whole discussion shouldn't be necessary because they just should have sourced ESS in the x700 series and/or ESS or AKM for the x800 series. For me however that's more a principle matter than a 'sound'-matter.

 

[peng]

I read about the amp section in the Cinema 50 was discrete amps for each channel and a bigger power supply. Don't know if that would help with my surrounds being 4 ohm. But again I am new at the technical side maybe the 4800 has the same thing. But you thought would be to go with the 4800?

The SR6015 has a slightly larger power supply than the AVR-X3700H, but the SR7015's power supply is the same as the AVR-X4700H's so it is highly possible that the same relationship will remain for the X4800H vs Cinema 40 and X3800H vs Cinema 50. You will pay less for the X4800H vs the Cinema 40 and given the list price the X4800H is a better value, but some people just like the Marantz look, the gold plated connectors, and the marketing hype about the HDAMs and/or warm sound (that's BS). I like Marantz gear, have had 5 Marantz products in the house at one time, now down to 3 and just 2 Denon pieces. Again, I like them too, just don't believe their marketing hypes/bs..

 

[birdog1960]

I don't think anybody has said that noise is inaudible? The whole point (at least for me) is that some forms of distortion or noise are close to inaudible, whereas others are audible indeed. Lower-order harmonic distortion is very hard to detect once it gets down to 50 or 60 db below the signal. Heck, even 20, 30 or 40 db can be hard to hear with music. Some forms of noise, on the other hand, is fairly easy to hear. Higher-order harmonic distortion or IMD can also be fairly easy to pick out. So one device with a benign SINAD profile of 60 db can be completely transparent to the human ear, whereas a device with a non-benign SINAD profile of 80 db can be non-transparent. Now if SINAD numbers get high enough, things stop being audible altogether, of course.

That said, proper gain staging is usually a smart thing to do in order to get noise to inaudible levels. That often means to have much gain early in the chain, and to lower the gain as much as possible in the final amplifier section. If one does the opposite - i.e. lowers the gain from the dac and increases the gain from the final power amp - it's not difficult to end up with audible hiss.

so please help me understand. If I'm streaming Amazon unlimited HD music via wifi through my phone/pc to my 3500, will there be less noise/distortion from my speakers when playing at equal volumes but higher output from the phone?

 

[stupidvillager]

uhm no. people who spent $5000 buying x8500h/a usually spent money on a lot of amps as well. especially in home theatre setup.

people powering their LR with external amp is even more common. Having a good dac makes sense.

But just as many don't buy external amps. So do those people not matter? So if the internal amp have worse numbers, do the DAC numbers matter as much?

 

[oivavoi]

so please help me understand. If I'm streaming Amazon unlimited HD music via wifi through my phone/pc to my 3500, will there be less noise/distortion from my speakers when playing at equal volumes but higher output from the phone?

Yes, at least for noise, which is the worst offender (the distortion story is a bit different but let's not make it too complicated). The noise level from your phone or pc is the same irrespective of volume. It's just a kind of constant noise that your device can't help itself from making. Let's assume that you send "100% volume" from your phone, it may send - let's just assume - 20 db noise. But if you send "50% volume", it will still put out 20 db noise. If you then need to double the gain at the amp, it will not only double the music signal, but also the noise level it has received. So you end up with more noise relative to the music signal. Did that explanation make sense?

 

[amper42]

MASI stock under pressure. Will it penetrate it's 52 week low at $112.07 from a high of $305.21? It's been a rough year for the new owner of Denon. MASI vastly over paid for Sound United and investors are paying the price. With proper oversight Denon could have easily done better with Denon 3800 measurements. Maybe this is a learning event?

 

[birdog1960]

Yes, at least for noise, which is the worst offender (the distortion story is a bit different but let's not make it too complicated). The noise level from your phone or pc is the same irrespective of volume. It's just a kind of constant noise that your device can't help itself from making. Let's assume that you send "100% volume" from your phone, it may send - let's just assume - 20 db noise. But if you send "50% volume", it will still put out 20 db noise. If you then need to double the gain at the amp, it will not only double the music signal, but also the noise level it has received. So you end up with more noise relative to the music signal. Did that explanation make sense?

thank you. Seems like an easy upgrade for more low end AVR's... Would the quality of the DAC in the iPhone come into play? ie, would it be best to stream music from a pc (MacBook pro) that might have a better internal DAC? probably in wrong thread but what would be optimal streaming device for HD music that provides high gain with low noise?

 

[oivavoi]

thank you. Seems like an easy upgrade for more low end AVR's... Would the quality of the DAC in the iPhone come into play? ie, would it be best to stream music from a pc (MacBook pro) that might have a better internal DAC? probably in wrong thread but what would be optimal streaming device for HD music that provides high gain with low noise?

Absolutely, noise levels vary a lot between such devices. I find that the noise level from my dell laptop is quite high. Don't know if it's the dac part or the audio output, kind of. Apple devices usually have quite good dacs and audio outputs though. I don't perceive any noticeable noise or distortion from the audio output from my ipad pro for example. I assume the output from your iphone or macbook pro is decent. For streamers with low noise and distortion, I guess there are some reviews here? Haven't looked at that in a while, I'm still happy with my old sonos connect

 

[Rockman2]

The SR6015 has a slightly larger power supply than the AVR-X3700H, but the SR7015's power supply is the same as the AVR-X4700H's so it is highly possible that the same relationship will remain for the X4800H vs Cinema 40 and X3800H vs Cinema 50. You will pay less for the X4800H vs the Cinema 40 and given the list price the X4800H is a better value, but some people just like the Marantz look, the gold plated connectors, and the marketing hype about the HDAMs and/or warm sound (that's BS). I like Marantz gear, have had 5 Marantz products in the house at one time, now down to 3 and just 2 Denon pieces. Again, I like them too, just don't believe their marketing hypes/bs..

I do like the new Marantz look. Don't like the difference in price. Especially if the difference is marketing and not a hardware benefit.

 

[delta76]

But just as many don't buy external amps. So do those people not matter? So if the internal amp have worse numbers, do the DAC numbers matter as much?

Sigh. What is your point? Saying that because we have people who only use internal amp so we only limit the dac to same internal amp makes no senses at all especially they provide preouts. And external amp is even required if they want to use all channels.

Denon avr has a degraded dac performance and that is a disappointment, there is no way to spin that

 

[NoCoYeti]

Sigh. What is your point? Saying that because we have people who only use internal amp so we only limit the dac to same internal amp makes no senses at all especially they provide preouts. And external amp is even required if they want to use all channels.

Denon avr has a degradation dac performance and that is a disappointment, there is no way to spin that

I believe you missed his point.

 

[amper42]

Lots of Denon 3700/4700/6700 user purchase external amps as they wish to take advantage of the new full Preamp mode. It allows quality amps paired with the AVR to provide superior dynamic range, better performance, a cooler running Denon AVR and almost 80W less energy usage by the AVR. Many Denon users have purchased NCORE/Purifi based amps from Buckeye Amps and other manufacturers to pair with pre-amp mode for a superior sound experience. Posters who believe few Denon 3700/4700/6700 owners actually use external amps are uninformed.

The next question usually seen posted by someone who purchased a Denon 3700/4700/6700 is what external amp should I buy. ASR has answered these questions hundreds of times.

 

[stupidvillager]

I believe you missed his point.

He did miss my point. Many of us will not be using an external amp. I will only be using the 9 channels of internal amplification. So, yes, downgraded DAC is not good, but would a better DAC improve the output of the internal amplifier? General question because I do not know.

 

[amper42]

He did miss my point. Many of us will not be using an external amp. I will only be using the 9 channels of internal amplification. So, yes, downgraded DAC is not good, but would a better DAC improve the output of the internal amplifier? General question because I do not know.

Yes, a superior measuring DAC is a benefit whether external amps are used or not.

 

[birgir]

Hello, first time posting (be gentle). I own the Denon 2700H and was planing to upgrade to 3800H. Amir you appear to have no test for the 2700H but (and everybody else how may have experienced both amps, please chime in) but woulden't be safe to say the 3800H is an huge improvement to the 2700H? It looks like from the 3800H performs in the test is lower in some corners but is this and audiuble difference in normal use compared to the 3700/3600H amps?

I am trying to evaluate if this isn't a worthy upgrade from 2700H since I can't get the 3700 in Iceland.

Regards from Iceland.

 

[Bren Derlin]

MASI stock under pressure. Will it penetrate it's 52 week low at $112.07 from a high of $305.21? It's been a rough year for the new owner of Denon. MASI vastly over paid for Sound United and investors are paying the price. With proper oversight Denon could have easily done better with Denon 3800 measurements. Maybe this is a learning event?

About the only people who know the new Denon x3800H measures "less impressively as the original x3700H", much less cares, are the people on ASR - which is probably 1% of 5% of their customer base. ...and half the people on here don't seem to care either. LOL

 

[peng]

53 pages later, before things get forgotten or mixed up, I would like to summarize the 3800's performance degradation based on the test results. One can easily see that it is not just "SINAD", the fact is, the 3800's measured performance is 2 to 10 dB worse across the board, the only exceptions are Dynamic range, both offer about 108 dB at 2 V, based on AES17, and the 32 tones input test, the two are within 1 bit resolution of each other's score.

Whether some or all of the differences are audible for "normal use" would depends on the individual's conditions for their normal use. Again, I am only comparing measured performance of the following items, obviously the 3800 offers some new features, one being the preamp mode that is more flexible, and very useful and may benefit those who only need to use external amps for the LCR channels.

Summary of the measured pre out performance of the X3800H vs the X3700H with the AKM chip:

SINAD lowered by:

- a little more than 10 dB at about 2 V
- about 6 dB at below 1 V

Dynamic range:

- about the same for both (108.189 dB/108.484 dB for the 3800 vs108.933 dB/107.956 dB for the 3700)

32 Tone input signal:

- about 1 bit resolution less than the 3700

Linearity:

- 2 bits less in accuracy than the 3700

Intermodulation distortion:

- about 8-10 dB higher at -5 dBFS generator level, but the gap narrows at below generator level -20 dBFS and lower.

THD+N vs Frequency:

- about 8-10 times higher than that of the 3700, that is, about 0.007% vs 0.07% between 20 to about 7 kHz. At least 7 times higher than the 3700's from 7 to 10 kHz. I won't bother comparing >10 kHz because the harmonics will be in the ultra sonic range.

Crosstalk:

- about 2-4 dB worse than the 3700

 

[GaryH]

Summary of summary: all inaudible.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

Summary of summary: all inaudible.

It’s not.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

About the only people who know the new Denon x3800H measures "less impressively as the original x3700H", much less cares, are the people on ASR - which is probably 1% of 5% of their customer base. ...and half the people on here don't seem to care either. LOL

Half seems like a big number. Many ASR readers don’t even have an account to join the conversation. I didn’t have one for 3-4 years.

People also need to know nobody on ASR is background checked. How would you know how many of these posts are hired guns to bash Amir’s work from the many PR firms SU have access to. They’re a big company, and if you don’t think they hire people to do online PR you’re naive. From YouTube, Reddit, twitter, to posts on ASR, they’re out there. It’s good to evaluate agenda of each poster first. My agenda is clear and inline with Amir’s: better performance equipment at reasonable price.