Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[oivavoi]

I think a lot of people dropped them when they dropped Audyssey (which they may have had no control over, is it happened around the time that Denon/Marantz purchased the rights to Audyssey... so competitors may well have been kicked off!).

Onkyo's solution was to purchase Pioneer - that way they gained MCACC - which they renamed on Onkyo/Integra AVR's - it also gave them the Dirac project which was in its early days with Pioneer and Dirac working together - the outcome of that, 5+ years later was the release of the current Dirac enabled models.

In the interrim Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer soldiered on with limited RoomEQ (MCACC/AccuEQ) - but lost a lot of the mid to high end market share

Their come back was a long time coming - and is closely linked to Dirac - what we (some of us) are hoping, is that Onkyo is ahead of the curve with Dirac, and that the Flagship models will benefit from this, with the release of DLBC and/or SRC over the next couple of months.

Here's hoping that Onkyo will bring some real competition to bear on D&M... limiting D&M's ability to raise their prices - the joys of competition!!

This is slightly off-topic, but related to what audio algorithms these AVRs come loaded with. Does anybody know when Harman's patent for the old Logic 7 expires? That's by far the best I've heard for music so far (excluding true Auro 3D material on a proper Auro 3D setup). The upmixer for stereo to multichannel, is particular, is miles ahead of anything else. As far as I know Harman doesn't use it anymore in their AVRs, it has moved to Logic 16, which several people seem to think is a downgrade for music comparing to Logic 7.

If any AVR makers wanted to make a good music-focused box, the inclusion of Logic7 would be a killer feature for me at least.

 

[ArturoKiwi]

The TX-RZ50 DAC+Amp system has a worse SINAD than the X3800H DAC+Amp system. Without DLBC, there's nothing definitive separating Dirac from Audyssey MultEQ XT32. This is coming from a TX-RZ50 owner. FWIW, I have never encountered the protection circuit issue in normal use.

If you are right and Dirac Live is similar to Audyssey MultEQ XT32, and I hope so, we could go with a 3600. It has Audyssey MultEQ XT32, 2 subwoofer and better measures.
It's a pity that in Italy the TX-RZ50 doen't arrive, otherwise I'll give it a try

 

[delta76]

Apologize if this is slightly off topic, but hopefully is something others are looking to do as well

a) Could anyone recommend a decent stereo amplifier to pair with the X3800H to fully realize a 11 channel speaker setup? I guess it should at minimum measure similarly or slightly better than the X3800H in terms of performance? EDIT: would the Emotiva BasX A2m work?

b) In order to continue to maintain overall audio quality, in the context of the X3800H, would you recommend that the Front L/R channels be offloaded to the external amp, or one of the surround/top pairs?

Thanks.

What is your budget? Hypex nCore based amps are highly regarded here for the price. If you have more money, then Purifi.
Overall audio quality will not be affected. people just usually power LR or LCR speakers with external amps because those are the most power-hungry ones. surround/top pairs draw much less power due to how less frequent the sounds come from them. in 99.99% of the cases, it will not matter to sound quality.

 

[rpki]

Only because you've been told it is. Past a point as explained above, lower distortion numbers have no audible consequence.

If anyone is claiming distortion at -87 dB is audible, then they can demonstrate this by successfully passing a blind test with music using the excellent Distort software and Foobar's ABX Comparator component, and posting the log with verifiable checksum. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. @Mad_Economist has even done (most of) the work for you, with the last sample on this page simulating the iFi Zen DAC using Distort, which has a similar distortion profile (bit better) then the X3800H. And be sure to check out all the other samples and simulations of other worse performing DACs/amps on that page and see if you can hear their distortion. It certainly is an eye (or rather ear) opening experience as to what all these figures mean in practice when it comes to audibility.

I can then safely stay with my aging Marantz processor, zero reason to upgrade / change.

 

[peng]

A SINAD of 80db is my personal "very happy zone", in all use cases. I don't have any big problem with a SINAD of 60db either as long as it's dominated by lower-order harmonic distortion and not high levels of noise, hissing or IMD. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that I would be able to distinguish such "benign" 60 db SINAD from 80db.

At the same time, I appreciate greatly what @amirm has been doing here. He has succeeded in bringing a level of objectivity into the audio discourse more than anyone before him, and the SINAD charts have been very useful. I'm probably going to buy one of those small Aiyima amplifiers soon because of his reviews, for example. I also don't have any problems with people "chasing sinad" just for the sake of it. But I think we - by that I mean the ASR community at large - should avoid giving people the impression that differences which are extremely difficult to hear are bigger than they are.

Agreed, but it isn't a lot to ask them to use a DAC IC that has comparable spec to the one they used in the units before the AKM factory fire. If they couldn't find any that could match the 104/107 dB SINAD (For fs=44.1 kHz/>=48 kHz), then how about one that is almost as good, such as even the ES9006 used in many entry to lower midrange level Yamaha AVRs). That's not a lot to ask is it? What would be their "excuse" for not doing it? There is no need to repeat the same line about "audibility" as for most of us who are disappointed is not really worried about sound quality for most practical use.

The fact is, Denon has produced >95 dB SINAD and lower IMD AVRs from the AVR-X3600H through X8500H. THD+N and IMD, at some level may not affect audible sound quality, but like power amps, if you only need 100 W, you will likely want one that can do 200 W to give you an extra 3 dB of headroom. So why give up 8 to 10 dB of SINAD and a few dB of IMD just because an IC (DAC in this case) has to be substituted due to shortage when there are many comparable ones? Wish we know the real reason instead of excuses! Would I still buy one, probably but now I would consider alternatives for sure.

 

[peng]

I can then safely stay with my aging Marantz processor, zero reason to upgrade / change.

Sure, but that implies you bought the Marantz AVP for reasons other than lower THD+N, IMD,.. and other measured performance? Like for look, XLR I/O, etc.,...., and/or the warm sound that are not there if listen/compared in blind tests.

 

[ArturoKiwi]

Sure, but that implies you bought the Marantz AVP for reasons other than lower THD+N, IMD,.. and other measured performance? Like for look, XLR I/O, etc.,...., and/or the warm sound that are not there if listen/compared in blind tests.

What I don't understand after quite 50 pages, then definitely it's my fault, is why if the "numbers" are in the non audible part and that is the only data that in this forum we are looking at, Amirm conclusion/suggestion is "It is with much sadness that I cannot recommend the Denon AVR-X3800H."
I can't understand all the graph/data, my fault again, but Amirm isn't a foul.

Personally, I won't buy a 3800. I think that if someone doesn't have a need of new avr, it isn't the right moment to buy a new one. imho

 

[Zigourney]

What I don't understand after quite 50 pages, then definitely it's my fault, is why if the "numbers" are in the non audible part and that is the only data that in this forum we are looking at, Amirm conclusion/suggestion is "It is with much sadness that I cannot recommend the Denon AVR-X3800H."
I can't understand all the graph/data, my fault again, but Amirm isn't a foul.

Personally, I won't buy a 3800. I think that if someone doesn't have a need of new avr, it isn't the right moment to buy a new one. imho

I too cannot understand how someone cannot recommend the x3800 if:

1) The numbers measured are in the non audible part of the spectrum.
2) The person who ran the measurements didn't listen to it, watch some movies through it, didnt give their thoughts about how it sounded? as you would expect since thats what the product is made for right? Ye I get everyone has different tastes, but you cannot simply review a product and say I don't recommend an AVR without reviewing it for its intended purpose and providing feedback on its intended functions.

However unlike you, I was in the market for a new AVR, I was moving up from the x3500 as I got a good sale price on it since I needed multiple hdmi 2.1 ports for my ps5, xbsx, so I did purchase the x3800 and guess what? I'm loving it. It sounds great, much better than my x3500, the dialogue and vocals are so much clearer, theres more mid range present, the sourround steering is better, all the hdmi 2.1 ports work great, no bugs in that department. It is so good that I felt compelled to register an account and provide a reply here.

All I would say is that If you are actually in the market for a new avr and are interested in the x3800 as oppsed to just wanting to analyze the death out of the numbers, go out and book yourself a demo, or better still just buy the unit from a retailer that has a non fuss returns policy (e.g Amazon) and use it in the comfort of your own home with your own speakers and decide for yourself if you will be keeping it or sending it back rather than stressing about the numbers too much.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

I too cannot understand how someone cannot recommend the x3800 if:

1) The numbers measured are in the non audible part of the spectrum.
2) The person who ran the measurements didn't listen to it, watch some movies through it, didnt give their thoughts about how it sounded? as you would expect since thats what the product is made for right? Ye I get everyone has different tastes, but you cannot simply review a product and say I don't recommend an AVR without reviewing it for its intended purpose and providing feedback on its intended functions.

The comments you made for number 1 and 2 is insensitive and like a guy who crashes a party, uninvited, and then complains that the FREE booze the host provided and he drank did not make him drunk enough! Amir is the host and provides the services for free. If you don’t need the services, you don’t have to come to the party.

As for 3500, of course you see an upgrade, but not all of us are in the same boat. Some of us supported Denon because they were on the right path for 3600 and 3700. Also this inaudibility BS is actually visible if you crank the volume high up 85+ in a relatively small room. I did, and 3800 started to distort in a sudden explosion scene. Same scene on 3700 was totally fine.

 

[Bren Derlin]

I too cannot understand how someone cannot recommend the x3800 if:

1) The numbers measured are in the non audible part of the spectrum.
2) The person who ran the measurements didn't listen to it, watch some movies through it, didnt give their thoughts about how it sounded? as you would expect since thats what the product is made for right? Ye I get everyone has different tastes, but you cannot simply review a product and say I don't recommend an AVR without reviewing it for its intended purpose and providing feedback on its intended functions.

However unlike you, I was in the market for a new AVR, I was moving up from the x3500 as I got a good sale price on it since I needed multiple hdmi 2.1 ports for my ps5, xbsx, so I did purchase the x3800 and guess what? I'm loving it. It sounds great, much better than my x3500, the dialogue and vocals are so much clearer, theres more mid range present, the sourround steering is better, all the hdmi 2.1 ports work great, no bugs in that department. It is so good that I felt compelled to register an account and provide a reply here.

All I would say is that If you are actually in the market for a new avr and are interested in the x3800 as oppsed to just wanting to analyze the death out of the numbers, go out and book yourself a demo, or better still just buy the unit from a retailer that has a non fuss returns policy (e.g Amazon) and use it in the comfort of your own home with your own speakers and decide for yourself if you will be keeping it or sending it back rather than stressing about the numbers too much.

GaryH had a good post on the previous page - and I found this link - "Evaluating SINAD, Why it's not important" through one of his links...

Excerpt...
"this is an unrealistic test, because as said, a sine wave has only one frequency, but music has content at a massive range of frequencies all playing at once at different levels. And, in fact, studies have shown that humans tend to be more sensitive to distortion with pure tones than with music. A study by Steve Temme and Sean Olive even found that headphones with distortion exceeding 1%, or -40db, weren’t significantly less preferred when the frequency response was the same!

This is definitely for the best, given that speakers and headphones - particularly speakers - have pretty high distortion in general. For DACs, amplifiers, and other electronic devices, it’s a lot easier to get distortion low, however, and that makes it pretty easy to keep below a threshold where you ever need to worry about it. At -60dB, which is 0.1%, distortion products will typically only be heard in “edge cases”, like the sine wave above, and even then, only if they’re the right order of distortion."

 

[Fidji]

Half of the audio aficionados hear things, that no device can measure and the other half cares for the numbers that no one can hear.

This is a strange hobby indeed ...

 

[stupidvillager]

The comments you made for number 1 and 2 is insensitive and like a guy who crashes a party, uninvited, and then complains that the FREE booze the host provided and he drank did not make him drunk enough! Amir is the host and provides the services for free. If you don’t need the services, you don’t have to come to the party.

As for 3500, of course you see an upgrade, but not all of us are in the same boat. Some of us supported Denon because they were on the right path for 3600 and 3700. Also this inaudibility BS is actually visible if you crank the volume high up 85+ in a relatively small room. I did, and 3800 started to distort in a sudden explosion scene. Same scene on 3700 was totally fine.

I don't see how 1 and 2 are insensitive at all. Especially 2. He does listening tests for speakers and then gives his opinion on said speaker. Why not for AVRs? Or why not only do measurements for speakers like AVRs? What I do feel is insensitive, is evidently you're not welcome here if you do not agree with Amir or the masses.

 

[SKBubba]

"this is an unrealistic test, because as said, a sine wave has only one frequency, but music has content at a massive range of frequencies all playing at once at different levels.

 

[markk]

GaryH had a good post on the previous page - and I found this link - "Evaluating SINAD, Why it's not important" through one of his links...

Excerpt...
"this is an unrealistic test, because as said, a sine wave has only one frequency, but music has content at a massive range of frequencies all playing at once at different levels. And, in fact, studies have shown that humans tend to be more sensitive to distortion with pure tones than with music. A study by Steve Temme and Sean Olive even found that headphones with distortion exceeding 1%, or -40db, weren’t significantly less preferred when the frequency response was the same!

This is definitely for the best, given that speakers and headphones - particularly speakers - have pretty high distortion in general. For DACs, amplifiers, and other electronic devices, it’s a lot easier to get distortion low, however, and that makes it pretty easy to keep below a threshold where you ever need to worry about it. At -60dB, which is 0.1%, distortion products will typically only be heard in “edge cases”, like the sine wave above, and even then, only if they’re the right order of distortion."

Yes, but it's not just SINAD. I'm a big believer in multitone as I too think we can be fooled by relatively less harmful 2nd and 3rd order products. Look at the multitone graph again. It's about 10 dB or so worse than the 3700. This is not a measure that is colored by lower order distortion particularly. I think this is more telling than SINAD.

Cyrus above makes a good point. Whether or not this is audible depends on the dynamic range of the rest of your system. It is true that any two way based system more than likely won't have the dynamic range in the speakers to ferret out a discernible difference.

On the other hand, if you have a full range 3 way plus sub, some purifi separtes (or equivalent up front) and listen to reference levels, then yes, the DAC's may become the weak link in the audio chain. If you listen at lower levels with more modest speakers, yes, sure, you will probably never notice the limitation of the DAC. And it's otherwise a reasonably good unit. I may still buy it. Just annoyed that for an extra $50 bucks they could have solved this. I'll pay the extra for a 4800, but I'll wait for Amir's test in the hope that they eeeked out a bit more headroom and cheaped out a little less on the power supply filtering.

 

[GaryH]

Half of the audio aficionados hear things, that no device can measure and the other half cares for the numbers that no one can hear.

This is a strange hobby indeed ...

Just as bad as each other...The former reject science, the latter effectively amounts to pseudoscience.

 

[Trell]

Just as bad as each other...The former rejects science, the latter effectively amounts to pseudoscience.

And then there are those that don't mind lower performance along with a substantial price hike compared to the previous generation, or otherwise don't care about engineering excellence or quality as long as their soundbar fits under the TV.

 

[GaryH]

then yes, the DAC's may become the weak link in the audio chain

No, they won't.

 

[markk]

No, they won't.

Oh snap?

 

[Triliza]

What I don't understand after quite 50 pages, then definitely it's my fault, is why if the "numbers" are in the non audible part and that is the only data that in this forum we are looking at, Amirm conclusion/suggestion is "It is with much sadness that I cannot recommend the Denon AVR-X3800H."
I can't understand all the graph/data, my fault again, but Amirm isn't a foul.

Personally, I won't buy a 3800. I think that if someone doesn't have a need of new avr, it isn't the right moment to buy a new one. imho

If I had to take a guess, it's because he is getting tired of testing electronic devices for us (and dacs for that matter), not for his labor, but exactly because at this day and age there is a need for him to do so. It seems the audio manufacturers can't get their shoot together and produce products that are half-way transparent, what he is to do, encourage them? Other consumers goods have make great strides on innovations and quality, 40 years now on audio we are still discussing about audibility and stuff.

He is doing us a service by trying to move things forward.

 

[amper42]

Here's the problems I see with the Denon 3800. It's $1699. The same price as the 4700 was new a year ago. It offers 10dB lower SINAD, multi-tone distortion is higher and it's optimal preamp output is 0.8V instead of 1.1 to 1.3 for the Denon 3700. These lower specs will be problematic for driving external amps in pre-amp mode at higher volumes. Amps with 25dB or lower gain won't be able to be driven to loud volumes without adding distortion. And later if you add Dirac it requires another 10db of headroom for EQ. The mediocre Denon 3800H design offers less for more money. Lightly used Denon 3700/4700/6700 models will hold their value better than the lower performing 3800/4800. If you like less for more the Denon 3800H is your AVR. Few people pay $1700 for an AVR and never watch action movies with loud explosions and car crashes. Limiting external amp performance with a mediocre preamp design is not what I'm looking for in a quality AVR.