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Denon AVR-X3800H Review

Rate this AVR

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 83 18.9%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 206 47.0%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 118 26.9%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 31 7.1%

  • Total voters
    438

markk

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Then I'm making excuses for every other company that raised prices because of supply shortages, and shipping and fuel cost increases. My orange juice brand price went from $2.50/gal to $3.00/gal this year. Welcome to 2022. I raised my wedding photography pricing from $2,900 for 8 hours to $3,800 for 8 hours. Or am I not allowed to raise my pricing that much?
You say you do wedding photography? Say Sony (or Cannon, Nikon, whichever) tried to sell you a new camera body. maybe a bit better eye focus, but a sensor with lower resolution and lower dynamic range for more money. "You're clients can't tell the difference." Would you think that a good value? Even if you did, you should be annoyed with the downgrade in some of the engineered aspects.

I think you have to separate the issue of "I can't hear a difference" from genuine engineering improvements. CD's and 16 bit resolution appeared over 40 years ago. So manufacturers have had 40 years to incorporate engineering improvements into basic amp and DAC design. If we just assume a leisurely rate of ONE bit improvement per decade, we should be at the average new enthusiast audio product having 20 bits of headroom. So why, in 40 years of audio advancement, Denon is offering a midrange product that doesn't quite get 16 bit and has lost over a bit of resolution while increasing the price. And it's not that it can't be done with DAC's that cost a couple dollars more, a bit more PS filtering, a bit more copper shielding. a bit more attention to layout etc. While in many cases we cannot hear a difference, it's reasonable to target the full dynamic range of human hearing, which is 120dB or maybe a bit more...

Part of the problem is that historically, we've had fluff magazine reviews with claiming orgasmic improvements with products like this. Despite no improvement in measurable resolution, the "veil has been lifted" for forty straight years running. Amazing!

I actually think that manufacturers are quite aware of forums like this, and in some way, they will push the envelope forward. It's much more likely someone on the internet with a AP, a Klippel, a cliowin, hey even a soundcard and free FFT software will test and call out these folks.

The "average" consumer doesn't really buy a 3800. They buy a soundbar. OK, if you want a soundbar, 85dB is probably "good enough."
 
OP
amirm

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If you mean what other aspects of the AVR design (other than choice of DAC chip and quality of amp modules) that can affect bottom line performance,
- quality of clocking digital signals throughout
- quality of DC power supplies for LV
- EMI/EMC (conducted and radiated) at both chassis and board levels - encompasses shielding, grounding, signal routing, etc
- buffering stages (could consider p/o amplification)
- volume/level control
- quality of signal processing separate from Room EQ
- thermal management
First half of that is reflected in my measurements "as a black box." We don't need to identify those components unless one is interested in diagnostic (that would be the manufacturer). Thermal management is outside of the scope of performance measurement although I do comment on it when it is a problem (and I noted it in this review).
 

SKBubba

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I feel almost lucky that my X3300 started having troubles (probably heat-related) a couple of years ago and I couldn't get an X3700 so "settled" on an X3600 new in box with factory warranty for about $780. (Plus an AC Infinity fan to hopefully avoid future troubles.)

I think I got one of the last two or three available NIB closeout X3600s on the internets.

The only thing I miss v. newer models is speaker configuration presets. Otherwise it works great, sounds great. (Other than that one time a firmware update broke Dolby stereo upmixing and I had to do a factory reset and turn off automatic firmware updates.). Bonus, sounds like I got the better dac.
 

MRavioli

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You say you do wedding photography? Say Sony (or Cannon, Nikon, whichever) tried to sell you a new camera body. maybe a bit better eye focus, but a sensor with lower resolution and lower dynamic range for more money. "You're clients can't tell the difference." Would you think that a good value?
How much lower res and lower dynamic range? At some point a reduction will obviously be visible (depending on output size of course)

And with audio, at some point reductions in measured values will become audible too.

What many of us would like to know, in order to interpret many of the reviews, is where those thresholds are, but nobody seems to know .....
 

GalZohar

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Trinnov Room Optimizer with its focus on Phase/Group Delay correction, measurement technique and it’s various Bass Management and really advanced settings options can do it effortlessly. Of course it also includes “need to know, what you’re doing” part and REW exercise to confirm and validate the results.

Having 5 subs and ability to place them where I need to, also does not hurt here.

Also I suspect wrong ms to meters calculation included in every D&M device might be one cause of it. But even PC app was not able to correct it in my case. Repeatability of measurements with Audyssey mic was also quite poor, including some false “wrong polarity” warnings. I have developed pretty robust measurement and calibration routine with Audyssey and I was getting delay, trim and crossover readings all over the place.

EDIT: I am not saying it is impossible to get Audyssey to produce excellent results. It was just not possible for me. But my setup is pretty exotic and quite complex (starting with 5 speakers being electrosts)

To say Audyssey is not good because it's no match for Trinnov is a bit of a weird statement. Sure a Toyota is not a Porsche but it's still a good car and getting much better for the same price is not easy. Audyssey can't even be beat (or at least not in a proven way) by significantly more expensive systems, and you seem to need to step up to Lyngdorf, Trinnov, or at least DLBC to really get something that is proven better.
I'm also interested seeing measurements showing how Trinnov did better, even though it's not really a valid competition, it could still be educational, as there is little measured data of what Trinnov actually does that others don't, in terms of how it actually affects the final results, and not just as a list of features that it has and others don't. There's actually a thread for that with very little actual useful information.
 

Bren Derlin

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You say you do wedding photography? Say Sony (or Cannon, Nikon, whichever) tried to sell you a new camera body. maybe a bit better eye focus, but a sensor with lower resolution and lower dynamic range for more money. "You're clients can't tell the difference." Would you think that a good value? Even if you did, you should be annoyed with the downgrade in some of the engineered aspects.

I think you have to separate the issue of "I can't hear a difference" from genuine engineering improvements. CD's and 16 bit resolution appeared over 40 years ago. So manufacturers have had 40 years to incorporate engineering improvements into basic amp and DAC design. If we just assume a leisurely rate of ONE bit improvement per decade, we should be at the average new enthusiast audio product having 20 bits of headroom. So why, in 40 years of audio advancement, Denon is offering a midrange product that doesn't quite get 16 bit and has lost over a bit of resolution while increasing the price. And it's not that it can't be done with DAC's that cost a couple dollars more, a bit more PS filtering, a bit more copper shielding. a bit more attention to layout etc. While in many cases we cannot hear a difference, it's reasonable to target the full dynamic range of human hearing, which is 120dB or maybe a bit more...

Part of the problem is that historically, we've had fluff magazine reviews with claiming orgasmic improvements with products like this. Despite no improvement in measurable resolution, the "veil has been lifted" for forty straight years running. Amazing!

I actually think that manufacturers are quite aware of forums like this, and in some way, they will push the envelope forward. It's much more likely someone on the internet with a AP, a Klippel, a cliowin, hey even a soundcard and free FFT software will test and call out these folks.

The "average" consumer doesn't really buy a 3800. They buy a soundbar. OK, if you want a soundbar, 85dB is probably "good enough."

Anecdotal answer:
I've shot with 6MP, 10MP, 12MP, 24MP, 36MP, and 45MP sensors for weddings. I'd gladly go back to 12MP (read, Sony a7sIII if I shot Sony). I know people who use Sony a7sIII for weddings and corporate events because it's infinitely better high ISO performance, even though it may suffer a bit in terms of dynamic range. I'd gladly buy a Nikon camera if it had a 12MP sensor that performed significantly better than the Z6II in terms of high ISO for low light venues.

When it comes to dynamic range, if I can't recover highlights or shadows, that's a feature that's detectable by the human eye. My clients will know if the dress is blown out on a sunny summer afternoon because the sensor sucks (Nikon D3 issues).

And it all comes down to: if I can "SEE A DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE" would I buy the camera? Because that's not what I've been saying about the AVRs.
Here's an illustration: I waited until the Nikon Z6 II arrived because, while the performance of the Z6II sensor is technically, a bit lesser of a performer in terms of color bit depth than the first Z6, but a bit higher in terms of dynamic range, it gave me other features I found compelling to buy into. A) dual card slots. B) improved Autofocus. Those were significant enough to not worry that the IQ may have been a bit worse in one area over another. In fact, the dynamic range of the Z6 II is slightly less than that of the old Nikon D750. Are any of those shortfalls perceptible to me or the client? No. So I don't care. The Z6 II offers features the D750 completely lacks (EVF and auto live view), and definitive upgrades to the Z6 I felt were incredibly important for a once in a lifetime event (dual card slots for redundant data).

...and that goes back to, "if I can't tell the difference, does it matter"? ...my answer is "No". Am I annoyed because there's a measurable different on some piece of electronic measuring device I can't detect? No.

Does this answer your question?

I agree. The average consumer doesn't care at all.
The average audiophile who does care, can't afford a $2,000 AVR. This is an excessively lot of money for most people. So they're relegated to less expensive gear. $2,000 is about at the top end for my family. "Audiophiles on a budget".




How much lower res and lower dynamic range? At some point a reduction will obviously be visible (depending on output size of course)

And with audio, at some point reductions in measured values will become audible too.

What many of us would like to know, in order to interpret many of the reviews, is where those thresholds are, but nobody seems to know .....

Your last paragraph is what I’d like know. Wish that info was easily available — like pinned to the top of this AVR forum.
 
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oivavoi

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Now you are making excuses for Denon’s marketing department, like a number of other posters here.
I'm not the one you responded to, but FWIW: Politically I'm definitely not on the side of big capital. I assume that I've put in more time in organizing against big & bad companies than most people on this site (not going to expand on the juicy details here...!).

But... my understanding is that the profit margins in audio companies are not very large. Onkyo just went bankrupt, for Pete's sake! Harman is not what it was. Lots of traditional speaker companies seem to struggle as well.

It is in my clear interest as a consumer of audio products that these companies continue to exist and continue making products. It will be a sad day indeed if there will only be soundbar companies left. So I struggle to get very agitated about Denon's pricing here, even though it goes against my usual leanings to let big companies off the hook. Is this AVR expensive? Absolutely. But I assume they have to do things like that in order to stay profitable, which they have to do as a private company. I don't know what kind of considerations went into going with this DAC chip over others, but I assume that they didn't do it purely out of spite.

Where I would like to see a change in both Denon and other companies, is a move to more upgradability of existing AVRs and DACs and amps. That would be environmental and sustainable, and also give them the possibility to keep on getting small sales from people who bought older gear. Why couldn't X3700 be manufactured in such a way so that it could easily be upgraded with a new chipset and DLBC later on? It shouldn't be that complicated. And Denon could sell it for, say, 300 USD, authorize some dealers to do the upgrade. Then everybody would be happy - consumers, dealers, and Denon.

As I see it, these are the things we as consumers should really be pushing for. SINAD differences I probably can't hear is not very important to me, at least.
 

DMill

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As I see it, these are the things we as consumers should really be pushing for. SINAD differences I probably can't hear is not very important to me, at least.
Why not have a SINAD higher than this AVR? Last generation did. What’s the bottom that is good enough? Some have suggested 60db in this thread. So good tube amp measurements are fine? I get it’s 87db and fine for most. But it damn sure ain’t SOTA.
 

DMill

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And I don’t hate this thing btw. It does a lot. But it doesn’t stand out in any way. It’s probably a “good enough” purchase until someone else betters it in the next year (hopefully said).
 

Alice of Old Vincennes

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I'm not the one you responded to, but FWIW: Politically I'm definitely not on the side of big capital. I assume that I've put in more time in organizing against big & bad companies than most people on this site (not going to expand on the juicy details here...!).

But... my understanding is that the profit margins in audio companies are not very large. Onkyo just went bankrupt, for Pete's sake! Harman is not what it was. Lots of traditional speaker companies seem to struggle as well.

It is in my clear interest as a consumer of audio products that these companies continue to exist and continue making products. It will be a sad day indeed if there will only be soundbar companies left. So I struggle to get very agitated about Denon's pricing here, even though it goes against my usual leanings to let big companies off the hook. Is this AVR expensive? Absolutely. But I assume they have to do things like that in order to stay profitable, which they have to do as a private company. I don't know what kind of considerations went into going with this DAC chip over others, but I assume that they didn't do it purely out of spite.

Where I would like to see a change in both Denon and other companies, is a move to more upgradability of existing AVRs and DACs and amps. That would be environmental and sustainable, and also give them the possibility to keep on getting small sales from people who bought older gear. Why couldn't X3700 be manufactured in such a way so that it could easily be upgraded with a new chipset and DLBC later on? It shouldn't be that complicated. And Denon could sell it for, say, 300 USD, authorize some dealers to do the upgrade. Then everybody would be happy - consumers, dealers, and Denon.

As I see it, these are the things we as consumers should really be pushing for. SINAD differences I probably can't hear is not very important to me, at least.
NAD modules? Expensive upgrade.
 

oivavoi

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Why not have a SINAD higher than this AVR? Last generation did. What’s the bottom that is good enough? Some have suggested 60db in this thread. So good tube amp measurements are fine? I get it’s 87db and fine for most. But it damn sure ain’t SOTA.
A SINAD of 80db is my personal "very happy zone", in all use cases. I don't have any big problem with a SINAD of 60db either as long as it's dominated by lower-order harmonic distortion and not high levels of noise, hissing or IMD. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that I would be able to distinguish such "benign" 60 db SINAD from 80db.

At the same time, I appreciate greatly what @amirm has been doing here. He has succeeded in bringing a level of objectivity into the audio discourse more than anyone before him, and the SINAD charts have been very useful. I'm probably going to buy one of those small Aiyima amplifiers soon because of his reviews, for example. I also don't have any problems with people "chasing sinad" just for the sake of it. But I think we - by that I mean the ASR community at large - should avoid giving people the impression that differences which are extremely difficult to hear are bigger than they are.
 

Narnian

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My new DAC came in so I will see how it sounds with the X3800H. I don’t expect to hear anything different but my dog has better hearing so I will include her and get her take.
 

oivavoi

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NAD modules? Expensive upgrade.
I had totally forgot, NAD already does this! Thanks for mentioning it.

Well yeah, NAD's modules are expensive for what they are, but it's still cheaper than buying a whole new AVR box in order to get new functionality. Not to mention it's more sustainable. I'm sure there's room for other companies to sell such upgrades cheaper than NAD also. I think NAD basically found the right way of doing this. They also seem to be doing ok financially, so I assume the move to sell modules as well as complete boxes has worked out well for them?
 

amper42

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If measurements aren't important to you then ASR is probably not your forum. If you are looking for well engineered designs that measure well then ASR reviews will be more important than the flowery subjective reviews you get from audio talking heads that get paid from advertising the same product they write about.

If you take your car in for a fuel filter and they charge you 3x the retail price for the part and use an inferior replacement you might say thanks and never know what kind of service you received. But if you google the part number and find you were charged 400% more than Auto Zone with a part that offers a lower rating than what you had originally you might be unhappy.

ASR measures audio gear so you don't have to stay in the dark. When a company gets a good review and then changes to lower performing parts after the review is released without sending in a new sample - I call that misleading. And when the company soon after raises the price by 50% without fully disclosing the details of the change, that's not a company I want to recommend. Conglomerates are in business to make money. They may not understand measurements are important until they lose sales as a result of customers recognizing they are downgrading measurement/parts quality. Customers have the power to push bad behavior out of the market.
 
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Bren Derlin

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And I don’t hate this thing btw. It does a lot. But it doesn’t stand out in any way. It’s probably a “good enough” purchase until someone else betters it in the next year (hopefully said).
For $1600 it has 4 sub outs. Which, I believe, is a first at this price point. I know some AVR’s in this price point only have one — I’m looking at you NAD 758 V3i

 

CyrusTheGreat_600BC

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The whole idea of if we don’t support whatever they feed us, they may go out of business, and we shall bow to them in fear that we may not get any new product is a naive way of thinking. That’s how fundamental countries stay in power because people are afraid if the regime changes it will be worse. Also if a big player goes out of business, many would see that as an opportunity to enter the market. I think Onkyo going bankrupt is actually going to make the new Onkyo better. Like GM! Believe it or not, they’re making better cars now than 15 years ago!
 
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NoCoYeti

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FYI - The 4800 is back at Denon.com

1667436975088.png
 

pseudoid

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This Denon AVR is the true proverbial "Kitchen Sink"!
202211_MuskSink.jpg

What Chief Twit was figuratively referring to, a few days ago, holds true for above statement.:facepalm:
 

CyrusTheGreat_600BC

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Full disclosure: this is meant as a Joke! Apparently it has to be said upfront:

Another option is everyone here tonight buys a powerball ticket for $1.2B jackpot, and if they win, they buy back SU from Masimo! That’s 20% profit for them already :)
 
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