Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[peng]

I'd reword the 2nd one since if the distortion is not audible to most listeners it can't be significant.

I know what you are saying but it is significant compared to the AK4458. For this response (B), it has nothing or little to do with audibility, it is more about principle, engineering excellence, pride etc.. Either way is good for me.

 

[Trell]

I know what you are saying but it is significant compared to the AK4458. For this response (B), it has nothing or little to do with audibility, it is more about principle, engineering excellence, pride etc.. Either way is good for me.

Indeed, and this is also how I read your poll questions.

 

[peng]

This video is in different ways a slap in our ASR faces, e.g. with the slogan "we always work on sound improvements, are looking for new parts for better performance".

I also don´t like the misleading background picture of a 2 line AVR display in the 3800 section, the receiver has only a single line display.

One interesting point: the voltage from amp disconnected pre-outs can reach 3,75V (with even lower SINAD).

Also interesting we finally can see what happens when voltage gets higher than 2 V, if internal amps are not disconnected. In all of Amir's reviews, it was about 75 to 76 dB at 2 V (again, amps connected, not preamp mode). Now we can see pre out can still reach well over 3 V at about 0.021%, that is about 73.6 dB. At 1% THD+N, that is 40 dB SINAD, you get 4 V.

Compared that to the Marantz AV7705 that has no internal amps at all, it only managed 75 dB at 2 V, that's no better than a Denon AVR with internal amps connected! That's why I don't agree with the "clipping" at 1.4 V label.

In fact, Denon shows P.AMP clipping level 1.41 V, I would interpret P.Amp as power amp. In the 2nd graph, it shows Pre out clipping level 3.75 V, so it makes sense P.Amp means power amp, not pre amp.

View attachment 240726

 

[DerRoland]

The date of the measurement is 07/09/20, can´t believe that SU had a pre-production sample of an 3800 at this time, so it can be a 3700 or 4700 or everything else.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Oh how the mighty have fallen

 

[Bren Derlin]

How about you start a poll?
Such as:
Response A: Yes it truly matters in reality in terms of audibility even for real world home use, not just in a "lab setting".
Response B: No, it does not matter in terms of real world audibility for most users, but still don't like the fact that Denon/Marantz switch to a DAC IC that has significantly higher distortions than the one it replaced.

I would vote B and I am sure the majority will too.

Response C: If switching to a DAC IC that has significantly higher 'inaudible' distortions to the human ear, and it doesn't matter in terms of real world audibility, then why should I care?

I would vote: C - because if it's imperceptible in real world use, it 100% doesn't affect my listening enjoyment. It's much ado about nothing.

 

[Trell]

Response C: If switching to a DAC IC that has significantly higher 'inaudible' distortions to the human ear, and it doesn't matter in terms of real world audibility, then why should I care?

I would vote: C - because if it's imperceptible in real world use, it 100% doesn't affect my listening enjoyment. It's much ado about nothing.

Obviously you’re in the camp “I don’t mind lower performance compared to the previous generation, even if I have to pay 30% more. As long as I’m unable to detect it, sighted or not, I’m happy.”

 

[Bren Derlin]

The poll should include that this lesser performance comes at a substantial price increase as well.

$200 price increase compared to 2020. Not shocking, considering inflation and material shortages.

 

[Trell]

$200 price increase compared to 2020. Not shocking, considering inflation and material shortages.

Now you are making excuses for Denon’s marketing department, like a number of other posters here.

 

[MRavioli]

And this got a 5 star review on What HiFi

They quote:

"Streaming SBTRKT’s Trials Of The Past, the AVC-X3800H delivers a surprisingly nuanced musical performance with an assured attack at the start of each synth note and the envelope of each reverb tail given space to breathe. The hefty bass is solidly controlled, while at the top end of the spectrum, the shakers are nicely defined and spread wide"

Does Amir's list of measurements prove that What Hi-fi's comments can't be true? And if so, how?

Eg - Is there a reference article on ASR somewhere, that I cannot find, proving that the differences in SINAD (and/or other measures) between this and the last model ARE audible?

Amir has praised (on numerous occasions) Harman's double blind listening tests and their use of those tests to validate their design approach, so I can't imagine for a second that he has simply decided (guessed!) where the audible thresholds are without validating with his own double blind testing. Without validation this is clearly more snake oil than science...

 

[Bren Derlin]

Obviously you’re in the camp “I don’t mind lower performance compared to the previous generation, even if I have to pay 30% more. As long as I’m unable to detect it, sighted or not, I’m happy.”

30% More? The 3700H was $1,500-$1,600 new when it was released. It was $1,500 new last year.

If you're comparing the refurb the $1,100 price of the x3700H to a new x3800H, that's absurd. I'd say, wait until the 3800H refurbs hit the shelves, then compare the refurb pricing. Apples to apples...

If there is a lower performance that's humanly audible, then yes. I 100% agree it's a definitive turn in the wrong direction. I'm not disagreeing here.

But... and I don't know how many more times this needs to be stated: If the lower performance is not humanly audible, and it's only perceptible to highly sensitive electronic recording equipment, then it's not a lower performance in a way that matters to consumers. So no. I couldn't care less. That doesn't affect me in any way shape or form.

 

[Trell]

30% More? The 3700H was $1,500-$1,600 new when it was released. It was $1,500 new last year.

If you're comparing the refurb the $1,100 price of the x3700H to a new x3800H, that's absurd. I'd say, wait until the 3800H refurbs hit the shelves, then compare the refurb pricing. Apples to apples...

If there is a lower performance that's humanly audible, then yes. I 100% agree it's a definitive turn in the wrong direction. I'm not disagreeing here.

But... and I don't know how many more times this needs to be stated: If the lower performance is not humanly audible, and it's only perceptible to highly sensitive electronic recording equipment, then it's not a lower performance in a way that matters to consumers. So no. I couldn't care less. That doesn't affect me in any way shape or form.

You don’t mind paying more for less performance, as long as you can’t hear a difference. Got it.

 

[Bren Derlin]

Now you are making excuses for Denon’s marketing department, like a number of other posters here.

Then I'm making excuses for every other company that raised prices because of supply shortages, and shipping and fuel cost increases. My orange juice brand price went from $2.50/gal to $3.00/gal this year. Welcome to 2022. I raised my wedding photography pricing from $2,900 for 8 hours to $3,800 for 8 hours. Or am I not allowed to raise my pricing that much?

 

[Bren Derlin]

You don’t care about paying more for less performance, as long as you can’t hear a difference. Got it.

100% yes! Because 1. I'm getting features the other item doesn't have (4 independent sub outs), and that less performance area doesn't matter if I can't hear it. What don't you understand?

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

30% More? The 3700H was $1,500-$1,600 new when it was released. It was $1,500 new last year.

It was $1199 on release. It then increased to $1599 after they downgraded their DAC.

 

[Trell]

100% yes! Because 1. I'm getting features the other item doesn't have (4 independent sub outs), and that less performance area doesn't matter if I can't hear it. What don't you understand?

You obviously don’t understand Peng’s suggested poll that you made an extra option for, which btw, did not mention other features.

 

[Bren Derlin]

It was $1199 on release. It then increased to $1599 after they downgraded their DAC.

Thanks for the note. I've been searching for the initial pricing, but every reviewer and place I could find had the x3700H listed at $1,500-$1,600 USD.

That aligns with when I started looking at receivers for my current rig, the x3700H was $1,599. I ended up going with a refurbed x2600H for $550 USD, as I didn't need the additional channels nor 8K input/output. 95w (8 ohms into 2 channels) seemed fairly negligible compared to 105w for the x3700H for my space.

Edit: Were people complaining about the price the x3700H last year? Or this just a problem in 2022?

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

Thanks for the note. I've been searching for the initial pricing, but every reviewer and place I could find had the x3700H listed at $1,500-$1,600 USD.

That aligns with when I started looking at receivers for my current rig, the x3700H was $1,599. I ended up going with a refurbed x2600H for $550 USD, as I didn't need the additional channels nor 8K input/output. 95w (8 ohms into 2 channels) seemed fairly negligible compared to 105w for the x3700H for my space.

No worries. Amir’s reviews are always a good place to check the price at time of his review:

Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of Denon AVR-X3700H 9.2 channel 8K Home Theater AV Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a local member and costs US $1,199. Visually, if you have seen one AVR, you have seen the look of the AVR-X3700H: The input selector is plastic and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Bren Derlin]

No worries. Amir’s reviews are always a good place to check the price at time of his review:

Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of Denon AVR-X3700H 9.2 channel 8K Home Theater AV Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a local member and costs US $1,199. Visually, if you have seen one AVR, you have seen the look of the AVR-X3700H: The input selector is plastic and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The one place I didn't look.

 

[Bren Derlin]

You obviously don’t understand Peng’s suggested poll that you made an extra option for, which btw, did not mention other features.

We know what the poll is talking about...