Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[Narnian]

The decision to use the TI DAC chips may have simply been pragmatic:

1. The AKM shortage not only drove up prices of other DACs but limited availability. Maybe Denon could not get other DACs in sufficient quantity. A legitimate reason but they should be transparent about it.
2. As noted it is likely there may not be an audible difference and they decided to go with what they had.
3. There are a number of other features that do justify a price increase (sub management, etc.) and, like it or not, inflation is still pretty high.
4. That said, the DAC downgrade and the lack of inclusion of Dirac would make me think $1,500 would have been a fairer price.
5. Also if the TI DACs are made in the US or the EU maybe this is a step to reducing issues with global market supply chains in these volatile times. Also if this is the case Denon should be transparent.

 

[Deleted member 19122]

I'm not aware of any recent blind tests which attempt to determine audibility between AVRs, so this is speculation of course. But based on psychoacoustic research on our sensitivity to distortion etc, I would be very surprised if anybody was able to distinguish Denon X3500H (SINAD 74) from this unit (SINAD 87) or the X3700H (SINAD 98). The NAD T754 (SINAD 54) on the other hand, is a unit I assume quite a lot of people would be able to pick out when listening carefully.

These are all assumptions of course. But I don't think they're unreasonable assumptions? As I said in a comment higher up I do think the SINAD charts are very useful for orienting ourselves in the market, and keeping manufacturers grounded in hard engineering. But I don't think they say much about audibility beyond a certain point.

I respect that opinion. The cost issue is definitely an issue, particularly in this economy... The question is if Denon delivered other things in this unit which provide added value, even though the sinad number went down? And whether other AVRs also increased in price? Anyways, keep up the great work!

A group of us did a double blind/level matched avr test.There was 6 of us.The avrs were Denon 3600,Pioneer vsx-832,Yamaha rxv-6a and an NAD 778.None of us could reliably tell the difference between any of them.All running in stereo via the various pure direct modes.

 

[Music707]

No doubt it would be very interesting to know why Denon changed to and now sticks with the TI chips. But we are simply missing the facts.

Reading all the possible explanations (that are not without reason) I sincerely hope that "Audio Science" won't turn into "Audio Speculation".

 

[Brian6751]

All we can do is speculate why Denon used this chip but I think we can maybe agree on two things?

1. Getting leadership to agree to spend more on a chip that is indistinguishable from a less expensive one is going to be tough. Even if it's only a $0.00001 difference. If you cannot show a value benefit, it's probably not going to happen. Not with the AVR demographic anyway.

2. I don't Believe Denon used a chip that measures worse than the last one just to be dicks.

 

[Bleib]

A group of us did a double blind/level matched avr test.There was 6 of us.The avrs were Denon 3600,Pioneer vsx-832,Yamaha rxv-6a and an NAD 778.None of us could reliably tell the difference between any of them.All running in stereo via the various pure direct modes.

If only loudspeakers measured as great as electronics. I've seen people more impressed with loudspeakers when the amplifier is really powerful in general. It can add a sort of confidence to the sound.

 

[SKBubba]

How many of these things does Denon sell? This price increase seems a little excessive, especially with the regressions, but it still amazes me they can cram all this technology (and licenses) in one box for these prices.

 

[Bleib]

How many of these things does Denon sell? This price increase seems a little excessive, especially with the regressions, but it still amazes me they can cram all this technology (and licenses) in one box for these prices.

Not to turn this political but people should know that a lot of companies have record profits currently.

 

[Chromatischism]

My x3100 needs to be cranked up past normal listening levels to fire up the SVS amps. Then I have to turn it back down. May be because it's a single subwoofer output split into 2 inside the AVR. Splitting the signal.

Sounds like there is a big difference in input sensitivity between the two amp brands.

 

[Newman]

Hey Denon….

 

[amirm]

What if denon could not secure orders from ESS for one reason or another?

Again, we have clear evidence that desktop DAC companies that move thousands and thousands of DACs switched to ESS and had no availability issues. And this happened across multiple companies. We don't need to prove our case better than this. If the company has a better reasoning, it would need to be forthcoming with it.

 

[Beave]

They can do it if they automate the testing process ime. (It wouldn't be that difficult either imo and could be set up and maintained by a small team)

It's what I do in software development. The fact that Amir can test the unit by himself tells me it could be done by Denon too.

Some of it can be automated, but so much of the testing just can't be automated. Each and every signal path on the HDMI board needs to be evaluated. It takes tons of time from a team of engineers and techs for each board (and each one of their receivers seems to use a different board).

 

[hmt]

Again, we have clear evidence that desktop DAC companies that move thousands and thousands of DACs switched to ESS and had no availability issues. And this happened across multiple companies. We don't need to prove our case better than this. If the company has a better reasoning, it would need to be forthcoming with it.

A desktop DAC is even more an niche than an AVR. And that DACs only have 2 Channels. The AVR here has 15 (11 plus 4 subs). Sorry, that is not a valid comparison for me.

 

[amirm]

I'm not aware of any recent blind tests which attempt to determine audibility between AVRs, so this is speculation of course.

We don't have to speculate if proper performance is delivered as even budget desktop DACs do. If I am paying this much money, that is what I want to get in return.

These are all assumptions of course. But I don't think they're unreasonable assumptions?

I have shown through countless testing of desktop DACs that a level of performance can be achieved that is transparent across all content, all people and all situations. What is the point of paying a premium for an audio product if it is not to get this level of transparency?

I am confident if someone like me was testing these products 10 years back, we would be in a far better situation than we are now. But that didn't happen so performance slipped backward. Yet the marketing claims are as loud as ever.

My job is to get you more performance for the same cost. Denon's approach here is to charge you more and give you less. This is fundamentally against my mission. No argument of this and that is not probably audible is going to change that.

 

[hmt]

They dont give you less. You get dirac and 4 subs out. Your focus on SINAD is approaching clable discussion level. 87 db down for distortion is transparent. Period. You can have own opinions but not own facts.

 

[amirm]

A desktop DAC is even more an niche than an AVR.

No way. Desktop market dwarfs AVR market by large factors. The number of people who deploy multi-channel video systems is tiny compared to the masses that use desktop products for 2-channel music listening/gaming. You can just look at the reach of our site against forums focused on home theater to see that:

Just think of who can afford a $100 DAC and a headphone compared to $1,699 and boatload of speakers to go with it.

 

[hmt]

Dont see any meaningful numbers for sales there. And btw Desktop products > Chi-Fi DACs with ESS chips.

 

[amirm]

They dont give you less. You get dirac and 4 subs out.

Oh? Dirac costs extra and is not shipping for a while. Multi-sub support is even farther in the future (2024). But even if it did have these, this is orthogonal to this discussion. They could give us better DAC performance and Dirac. One has nothing to do with the other.

Your focus on SINAD is approaching clable discussion level. 87 db down for distortion is transparent. Period. You can have own opinions but not own facts.

You have no facts. You are posting speculation. Here is fact: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ts-did-show-amplifiers-to-sound-different.23/

 

[DMill]

All we can do is speculate why Denon used this chip

A trusted provider like TI is not something Denon is likely to walk away from unless they are no longer competitive. It’s easy to say just put in a better/available chip from a different manufacturer, even if it costs a bit more. Much harder to do that at scale and maintain solid relationships with a vendor. There are business realities and relationships that once severed are hard to repair. That said, I can’t help but feel a bit disappointed seeing the measurements. Really nothing improved and a number of things taking a step back. It’s still a decent AVR, but feels a bit like a tricked out Honda Accord. Apologies for the car thing up front.

 

[amirm]

Dont see any meaningful numbers for sales there.

Then what did you base your claim on?

 

[abdo123]

They dont give you less. You get dirac and 4 subs out. Your focus on SINAD is approaching clable discussion level. 87 db down for distortion is transparent. Period. You can have own opinions but not own facts.

So I assume you also like your waiters spitting in your food and charging you extra for the spit?