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Denon AVR-X3800H Review

Rate this AVR

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 83 18.9%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 206 47.0%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 118 26.9%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 31 7.1%

  • Total voters
    438

beren777

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They changed dacs? I didn't get the memo, on the 3700H? how do you distinguish between the old model and the new one o.o
Probably any manufactured after a certain date, but I'm not sure when that date was. Otherwise you have to open it up and shove a borescope in there to look. But only crazy people do that stuff.

That said I've been content with my "3700H."
 

Music707

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I just wanted to point out that the question itself is not meaningful in many ways. When you are in the market for an AVR you should aks for an AVR that suits your needs. When it was released and if it got a "recommendadtion" does not really matter. That's a typical ASR question. Sounds smart on the first look. Makes nos sense on the second.

I see your point and I agree that there is at least some, maybe even a lot of truth to it. No need to argue here.

Please remember that your original answer was: "The X3800 or the X3700. Depending on wether you want dirac or stick with audyssey."

From the wording of that answer it may not be apparent to many that in reality you wanted to point our that the original question was not meaningful in many ways in your opinion.

Anyway, things should be clear now and maybe @Toroid has followed the thread. Thank you for your replies and insights provided.
 

Music707

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The only reason to buy this is when/IF Dirac DLBC is fully implemented and working as expected.

For me the reason would be Dirac spatial room correction. Unfortunately, we neither know when this will come nor if it will run on the 3800 or only on higher models.

Unfortunately, the waiting continues. But for me it has become a bit more interesting at least.
 

oivavoi

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Why wouldn't you want a SINAD (THD+N) that at least equals CD Quality (SINAD of 96) that has been with us 40 years.
Because it's virtually impossible to distinguish a device with a sinad of 60 from a device with a sinad of 96. This AVR is 87. You can test your own ability to hear distortion in Klippel's online testing: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...u-fit-as-compared-to-8680-participants.27664/

I was able to hear distortion of 40 db after trying really really hard, with test tones. 33 db with music. But it actually became difficult to hear differences about 20-25 db. And I'm on the higher end of the spectrum, the majority of people who've taken these tests have scored worse than me.

There are some very few individuals who are able to hear distortion down to about 60 db, though. A minimum sinad of 60 therefore seems reasonable, so we can all aspire to become such super-listeners? If we move it up to 80 db we should definitely on the safe side.

I'm not saying that higher sinad is bad. If better sinad can be had, all tings considered, sure, it's a bonus. But this is very far down on the list over audible concerns in audio and AVRs.
 
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Chromatischism

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It is frustrating to see these pre-amp sections with such low output and a "it's fine" attitude. My SVS subwoofers react measurably and significantly audibly different to my old Denon AVR pre-amp output vs. my Anthem MRX1140 pre-amp output. Specifically, auto turn on function is not engaged until there is some huge explosion or big bass hit. Meaning at normal listening levels there is little to no signal going to the subwoofers and I'm losing the information during playback. They even sometimes go back to sleep in the middle of a movie or music! Where with my Anthem they fire up right away and provide clear audible low frequency information and never go back to sleep. We need higher output voltage for our subwoofers.
Huh. My Rythmiks come on pretty easily with my X4500H. They also did with my X4000. Wonder if there's something different about the 3800?
 

JDS

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This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3800H 9.4 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $1,699.
View attachment 239676
Not much to say about the look of the unit as it is pretty much similar/same as last generations. Here is the back panel:
View attachment 239677

I had one operational problem with the unit where the Setup button would not bring up the menus anymore. A power cycle fixed it. I was happy to see solid extruded aluminum heatsink. Despite that, the top front of the of the unit (above the heatsink) got quite hot to the touch. I highly recommend ample airflow in that area. As usual, there is a fan there but it would not come on to cool the unit.

I grabbed a preliminary set of measurements from the DAC section of the 3800H and ran it by the company. Within typical margin of error, the measurements were the same as company's own.

Denon AVR-X3800H DAC Measurements
The DAC measurements and usage are made better by a global "preamplifier" mode which shuts down the amps and keeps them from overloading the unit during testing. I started my tests using Toslink optical to remove any possibility of ground loops:
View attachment 239678

I was fair bit disappointed to see the high distortion spikes which caused the unit to underperform the AVR-X3700H by some 10 dB. This naturally knocks down the positioning of the unit by good bit in our SINAD ranking:
View attachment 239679
The culprit seems to be the optimal output shifting fair bit lower in voltage:
View attachment 239680

With amps shut off, the 3700H was happy to go 2.0 volts.
index.php

So fairly large degradation here. Company explanation was that this was good enough for "99%" of the external amps out there. Be that as it may, it still doesn't explain the drop in performance at the peak level (101 dB for 3700 vs 95 for 3800).

Connecting HDMI causes a rise in noise floor but SINAD didn't change since it is dominated by distortion:
View attachment 239682

Fortunately dynamic range is unchanged from last generation:
View attachment 239683

IMD is naturally worse due to earlier saturation:
View attachment 239684

Linearity has suffered a bit:

View attachment 239685

Multitone shows the degradation we would expect:
View attachment 239686

Due to different DAC chip used (?), the filter performance is a bit worse as well:
View attachment 239687


View attachment 239688

This naturally increases the noise+distortion in our wideband measurements:

View attachment 239689

Quite poor result.

Jitter is bad but so was the last generation:
View attachment 239690

Denon AVR-X3800H Amplifier Measurements:
Let's start with analog input with and without pure mode:
View attachment 239691
This is good results.

Crosstalk is very similar to last generation and in need of some improvement:
View attachment 239692

Dashboard performance is a bit worse than last generation but not as bad as the hit in the DAC section:
View attachment 239693

View attachment 239694
HDMI input raises the noise floor:
View attachment 239695

Fortunately noise performance is the same as before:
View attachment 239696
Multitone has power supply noise in lower frequencies and rising distortion in highs:
View attachment 239701

Rest of the measurements are essentially identical to last generation AVR:
View attachment 239697

View attachment 239698

View attachment 239699

View attachment 239700

All in all, the amplifier is as performant as before.

Conclusions
I had high hopes going into this review thinking the company had seen the advantage its superior objective measurements in the past and would try to capitalize on them. Sadly, the reverse seems to be true with the DAC section taking a large step backward. Considering that the 3800 costs $500 more than 3700H, this is very surprising to me. Yes, inflation has a lot to do with that but surely the eye needed to be focused on making sure they at least met the same level of performance as last generation.

The good news is that the amplifier seems to be same design as last generation and has only taken a small hit.

Denon had been my "goto" recommendation for AVRs and even AVPs. When anyone asked me about either, I would just say "get a Denon AVR." While subjectively the performance of this new generation may be similar, I can't accept the regression in objective measured performance.

It is with much sadness that I cannot recommend the Denon AVR-X3800H.

----------
As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/
Extremely disappointing.

So if I want to drive a modest home theater setup with 8 channels, up-to-date codecs (including room EQ), and better-than-poor performance, it seem there is nothing on the market below the top price points involving assembling my own multi-box solution. That's absurd. I'd replace my NAD T758 if somebody delivered on this seemingly simple value proposition.
 

Dj7675

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Because it's virtually impossible to distinguish a device with a sinad of 60 from a device with a sinad of 96. This AVR is 87. You can test your own ability to hear distortion hear in Klippel's own online testing: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...u-fit-as-compared-to-8680-participants.27664/

I was able to hear distortion of 40 db after trying really really hard, with test tones. 33 db with music. But it actually became difficult to hear differences about 20-25 db. And I'm on the higher end of the spectrum, the majority of people who've taken these tests have scored worse than me.

There are some very few individuals who are able to hear distortion down to about 60 db, though. A minimum sinad of 60 therefore seems reasonable, so we can all aspire to become such super-listeners? If we move it up to 80 db we should definitely on the safe side.

I'm not saying that higher sinad is bad. If better sinad can be had, all tings considered, sure, it's a bonus. But this is very far down on the list over audible concerns in audio and AVRs.
I aggree that distortion can be very difficult for most to hear with test tones or music. But what about the noise component? Unlike distortion which I agree can be difficult, noise is quite easy to hear. If you listen at or near reference level and have sensitive speakers it is an issue. Surround and Atmos speakers are often fairly close and nothing drives me more nuts than hearing speaker hiss when it is supposed to be quite. IMO it is disappointing for Denon to take a step objectively backwards. Each consumer will of course decide if it matters to them or not, but wish they had continued to choose to be better.
More concerning to me is the Dirac roll out. Next year for Dirac but no DLBC until the following year. No transparency on which models will be capable of what. It would be nice to know which models will for sure be capable of DLBC and which models capable of SRC (and will get it).
Are we now at the point where people are honestly advocating that a SINAD of 60 is fine? Interesting.
 

kaopad999

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Given space to breath? Are they laughing as they write this stuff or do they really believe this?
maybe they're high. prob spark up a massive joint before they start wrting . Good for the imagination i guess!
 
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Wait - that has a SINAD of 52 dB and you'd rather have that over a SINAD of 87 dB with really good amplifier performance and many excellent features? :oops:

 

dtaylo1066

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Given the cost of a good DAC chip, there is no reason for home theater, all-in-one units to have such poor DAC sections. I think part of their philosphy must be that they see the HT consumer as not that interested in the highest audio quality.

For the cost of this unit one can buy separates -- such as an integrated amp or receiver and a separate DAC unit -- that will blow away its performance.
 

CyrusTheGreat_600BC

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Extremely disappointing.

So if I want to drive a modest home theater setup with 8 channels, up-to-date codecs (including room EQ), and better-than-poor performance, it seem there is nothing on the market below the top price points involving assembling my own multi-box solution. That's absurd. I'd replace my NAD T758 if somebody delivered on this seemingly simple value proposition.
Oculus started as a kickstarter because all the big box names like Sony and nVisor were producing mediocre VR head mounted displays at unbelievable prices. They sold the company to FaceBook later on for 2billion dollars. I can see the future that another college drop out starts the kickstarter for AVRs.
 
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Brian6751

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How does one experience better performance than transparent? Like, what are you hearing???
 

oivavoi

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I aggree that distortion can be very difficult for most to hear with test tones or music. But what about the noise component? Unlike distortion which I agree can be difficult, noise is quite easy to hear. If you listen at or near reference level and have sensitive speakers it is an issue. Surround and Atmos speakers are often fairly close and nothing drives me more nuts than hearing speaker hiss when it is supposed to be quite. IMO it is disappointing for Denon to take a step objectively backwards. Each consumer will of course decide if it matters to them or not, but wish they had continued to choose to be better.
More concerning to me is the Dirac roll out. Next year for Dirac but no DLBC until the following year. No transparency on which models will be capable of what. It would be nice to know which models will for sure be capable of DLBC and which models capable of SRC (and will get it).
Are we now at the point where people are honestly advocating that a SINAD of 60 is fine? Interesting.

Mostly agree. Noise and hissing are much more concerning to me than distortion. Hissing is one of the things which really annoy me. According to this review, though, the SINAD numbers here are dominated by distortion, not noise. Which means that this shouldn't be an issue with this unit.

I still think that SINAD charts can be useful. Not least because it gives an objective benchmark and allows us to compare various devices, which makes it easier to discard some of the high-end mumbo jumbo. But it's good to have an idea about when things actually become audible problems, and whey they do not.

As for whether SINAD of 60 is fine? For most people it's probably audibly transparent, meaning they wouldn't be able to distinguish it from devices with a better score, at least if noise levels are not too high. Shooting for a SINAD of 80 is in the safe zone for me personally.

Fully agree on the dirac and DLBC issues though. These are the things which obviously have a huge audible impact. Not to have them ready on the roll-out seems strange.
 

CyrusTheGreat_600BC

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I aggree that distortion can be very difficult for most to hear with test tones or music. But what about the noise component? Unlike distortion which I agree can be difficult, noise is quite easy to hear. If you listen at or near reference level and have sensitive speakers it is an issue. Surround and Atmos speakers are often fairly close and nothing drives me more nuts than hearing speaker hiss when it is supposed to be quite. IMO it is disappointing for Denon to take a step objectively backwards. Each consumer will of course decide if it matters to them or not, but wish they had continued to choose to be better.
More concerning to me is the Dirac roll out. Next year for Dirac but no DLBC until the following year. No transparency on which models will be capable of what. It would be nice to know which models will for sure be capable of DLBC and which models capable of SRC (and will get it).
Are we now at the point where people are honestly advocating that a SINAD of 60 is fine? Interesting.
You know Denon is bought by a medical company. Maybe now they can add wireless blood pressure sensor to see when our BO goes up hearing those noises!
 

Brian6751

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...
More concerning to me is the Dirac roll out. Next year for Dirac but no DLBC until the following year. No transparency on which models will be capable of what. It would be nice to know which models will for sure be capable of DLBC and which models capable of SRC (and will get it).
Are we now at the point where people are honestly advocating that a SINAD of 60 is fine? Interesting.

DLBC, I am hopeful the 3800 will get. I will be disappointed if it doesn't happen. SRC, I'm not so confident of. They may keep that for the higher end models.

But, Multeq-X works really well so im already happy with room correction in the 3800. I am looking forward to seeing how it handles more than two subs.
 

Dj7675

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DLBC, I am hopeful the 3800 will get. I will be disappointed if it doesn't happen. SRC, I'm not so confident of. They may keep that for the higher end models.

But, Multeq-X works really well so im already happy with room correction in the 3800. I am looking forward to seeing how it handles more than two subs.
I would sure think it would get DLBC with the 4 independent sub outs, but without a commitment it is hard to know. And the time frame they are saying is disappointing I'm sure to many. If I had a choice between Dirac without DLBC or Audyssey XT32 I'm not sure I would choose Dirac without DLBC managing the 4 subs. Without it, Dirac is incomplete IMO in particular when managing multiple subs. Multeq-X does look interesting from what I have read.
 

delta76

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Why do you want the best SINAD output?
A quite common Asr mindset. Sure everything else equal same I would prefer higher sinad, because it usually (but not always) means it is better designed and implemented. but as long as it is fine I would not mind too much.

Asking an avr to achieve dac level sinad is pretty naïve. Thinking topping and smsl can compete in this market in foreseeable future is also naïve.
 
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