Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[hmt]

Why wouldn't you want a SINAD (THD+N) that at least equals CD Quality (SINAD of 96) that has been with us 40 years.

Because it does not matter.

 

[delta76]

Given the cost of a good DAC chip, there is no reason for home theater, all-in-one units to have such poor DAC sections. I think part of their philosphy must be that they see the HT consumer as not that interested in the highest audio quality.

For the cost of this unit one can buy separates -- such as an integrated amp or receiver and a separate DAC unit -- that will blow away its performance.

You forget that performance alone is not the only, or even the major factor a manufacturer considers. they would pick something that is readily available, with predictable, reliable supply in the future over a few sinad, every day

 

[amirm]

Because it's virtually impossible to distinguish a device with a sinad of 60 from a device with a sinad of 96.

How "virtually" is this? And what would be the reason to accept the regression while paying so much more?

Let's keep in mind that the discontinuation of AKM DAC ICs hit the entire industry. Desktop DAC companies switched to ESS DAC ICs while more or less maintaining the same performance. Whereas Denon chose to switch to a much lower performance DAC IC and sharply increase the cost of the unit as well. I don't how this should be something acceptable as to encourage the company with a thumbs up.

Let's remember that these products are aimed at enthusiasts and not mass market. This is the tag line for this product at Denon: "Home Theater Enthusiasts Rejoice." Enthusiasts demand the best performance not what may be good enough. For good enough get a $300 AVR or soundbar.

 

[amirm]

You forget that performance alone is not the only, or even the major factor a manufacturer considers. they would pick something that is readily available, with predictable, reliable supply in the future over a few sinad, every day

ESS is a major supplier of DAC ICs used it much higher volume desktop DACs I test day in and day out. So don't see a problem with going that route unless cost is more important than performance.

 

[abdo123]

ESS is a major supplier of DAC ICs used it much higher volume desktop DACs I test day in and day out. So don't see a problem with going that route unless cost is more important than performance.

Don't the chips themselves cost peanuts compared to the whole device? seems like they just didn't want to redesign their boards to accommodate the chips.

But at the same time they thought digitization at 96KHz is important? Very confusing goals in my opinion.

 

[amirm]

BTW, if there is enough market elasticity to accept a $500 hit to retail price, they could have gone up $600 and not regressed in performance. It is simply a poor decision to raise price and reduce performance at the same time. The only reason to justify it is the hope that no one like me would test them. This, Denon should have known to be a bad assumption.

 

[amirm]

Don't the chips themselves cost peanuts compared to the whole device? seems like they just didn't want to redesign their boards to accommodate the chips.

I haven't done the math to know that. But they did have to redesign to use the TI DAC ICs instead of AKM. That is as big of a redesign to any other DAC chip.

 

[Beershaun]

Huh. My Rythmiks come on pretty easily with my X4500H. They also did with my X4000. Wonder if there's something different about the 3800?

My x3100 needs to be cranked up past normal listening levels to fire up the SVS amps. Then I have to turn it back down. May be because it's a single subwoofer output split into 2 inside the AVR. Splitting the signal.

 

[hmt]

They know that the price of every AVR increased the last years due to Covid, AKM and inflation. We also don't know if the ESS DACS were so readily available to equip every D&M AVR with them.

 

[delta76]

ESS is a major supplier of DAC ICs used it much higher volume desktop DACs I test day in and day out. So don't see a problem with going that route unless cost is more important than performance.

What if denon could not secure orders from ESS for one reason or another? I can imagine that ess demanded 10$/piece and denon was firm on 8$/p and then they said f*** that. Just one of many possible scenarios.

To be clear I am fairly disappointed with this performance, I had high hopes and expected more. This is subpar, and we can all agree on that.

But simply saying why not pick a better dac is simplifying the situation quite a lot.

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

Agreed. As someone who has spent much of my time evaluating alternative components just to stay in business and hopefully beat out other competitors who are in the same boat, I can understand how latching onto a particular vendor during a massive component crunch could have happened. Even better, they managed to squeeze very good performance out of a DAC that spec'd considerably worse than the AKM part. From my perspective, there's far too much unfair criticism going on here - you have no idea how bad it's been over the past year. I've had to redesign several products due to availability issues - it's not fun.

 

[oivavoi]

How "virtually" is this? And what would be the reason to accept the regression while paying so much more?

I'm not aware of any recent blind tests which attempt to determine audibility between AVRs, so this is speculation of course. But based on psychoacoustic research on our sensitivity to distortion etc, I would be very surprised if anybody was able to distinguish Denon X3500H (SINAD 74) from this unit (SINAD 87) or the X3700H (SINAD 98). The NAD T754 (SINAD 54) on the other hand, is a unit I assume quite a lot of people would be able to pick out when listening carefully.

These are all assumptions of course. But I don't think they're unreasonable assumptions? As I said in a comment higher up I do think the SINAD charts are very useful for orienting ourselves in the market, and keeping manufacturers grounded in hard engineering. But I don't think they say much about audibility beyond a certain point.

Whereas Denon chose to switch to a much lower performance DAC IC and sharply increase the cost of the unit as well. I don't how this should be something acceptable as to encourage the company with a thumbs up.

I respect that opinion. The cost issue is definitely an issue, particularly in this economy... The question is if Denon delivered other things in this unit which provide added value, even though the sinad number went down? And whether other AVRs also increased in price? Anyways, keep up the great work!

 

[GD Fan]

They changed dacs? I didn't get the memo, on the 3700H? how do you distinguish between the old model and the new one o.o

Yes, after the plant fire and associated chip shortage they had to change to a lesser chip. Do a thread search and you'll find plenty of discussion about it here.

Someone was able to determine how to tell which DAC your unit has based on serial number. Sadly, mine has the new one.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

Old ones also have 4K/120 HDMI issue.

They changed dacs? I didn't get the memo, on the 3700H? how do you distinguish between the old model and the new one o.o

Denon HDMI Adapters | Denon™

www.denon.com

 

[SuicideSquid]

Great review! Thank you Amir.

AVRs are in need of extensive redesign of pre- and amplifier sections. Their performance it is still 1980’s consumer’s electronics (and their looks too). It is also truly indicative of poor product design to market a new AVR with worse performance than the one before.

$ 1,700 is a decent chunk of money to be careless about: it buys you a SOTA amp and DAC/Preamp with some cash left, albeit not a multichannel one. I soldier by with my 2.1 modest AV system as I rather wait for improved specs, review, aesthetic and price.

I don't think it's indicative of poor product design so much as it is indicative of design priorities that don't always align with the needs of the more discerning music listener.

The feature sets offered by modern AVRs are truly remarkable - half a dozen or more HDMI inputs, multiple HDMI outputs, 4k video upscaling for analog inputs or 1080P digital inputs, room correction, etc. They're boxes that are really meant to be all things to all people and the fact that you're still getting pretty good audio performance overall out of Denon's AVRs is frankly impressive, given how many other things the AVR is being asked to do.

It is very disappointing though that even at the top end of AVRs and AVPs, the preamp and DAC performance falls dramatically short compared to desktop DACs that cost 1/10th or 1/20th as much.

 

[devopsprodude]

These companies are toast if the Shenzhen companies decide to go after the HT receiver/preprocessor market.

 

[peng]

I haven't done the math to know that. But they did have to redesign to use the TI DAC ICs instead of AKM. That is as big of a redesign to any other DAC chip.

May be because of the high volume, they got an irresistible deal from TI? We'll never know but it is a possibility. Even the midrange models AVR-X3800H and Cinema 50 would have 11 speaker channels, 4 subwoofer outputs and then Z2 and "network" DACs. So the total number of the 2 channel ICs, namely the PCM5102 A will be:

(11+4+2)/2 = 8

The X4800H will need 9

That's for each unit they make, so for that huge numbers TI would likely offer a deep discount and might even design the whole DAC board for them lol.. Design cost is obviously higher than the ICs but it only need to be done once or twice where as the IC's unit cost is low but could be very significant due to volume.

 

[AndreaT]

I don't think it's indicative of poor product design so much as it is indicative of design priorities that don't always align with the needs of the more discerning music listener.

The feature sets offered by modern AVRs are truly remarkable - half a dozen or more HDMI inputs, multiple HDMI outputs, 4k video upscaling for analog inputs or 1080P digital inputs, room correction, etc. They're boxes that are really meant to be all things to all people and the fact that you're still getting pretty good audio performance overall out of Denon's AVRs is frankly impressive, given how many other things the AVR is being asked to do.

It is very disappointing though that even at the top end of AVRs and AVPs, the preamp and DAC performance falls dramatically short compared to desktop DACs that cost 1/10th or 1/20th as much.

I am left to wonder if the new “feature set” suffers from the same poor integration and choice of ICs. In the absence of an impeccable review like Amir’s, but in the video section, I choose to pass when I see a newer item performing worse than the old model (and the one before, btw), as this indicates a serious misalignment of my priorities compared to the manufacturer’s.

 

[Sancus]

For the cost of this unit one can buy separates -- such as an integrated amp or receiver and a separate DAC unit -- that will blow away its performance.

Really? This is a 15 channel DAC (11 preouts + 4 subwoofer outs) and a 9 channel amplifier. It also includes fairly good room correction, Atmos/DTS/etc support and Auro3D upmixing.

I'm not happy about the DAC change either but I don't think there are very many better options at the same or lower price point.

Personally I'm happy to sit on my 4500H until the day that Denon actually finishes Dirac+DLBC support.... since that is two years away, by that point there will likely be another refresh of this lineup. But if you need an AVR now, you need one.

 

[dougi]

This is from Denon/Marantz support: "The AV7706 uses 7 PCM5102APWR stereo DACs and the AVC-X3800H uses 8 PCM5102APWR stereo DACs"

That fits with the datasheet and measurements, but using the "normal" filter with 60dB stop band attenuation, as opposed to the likely "low latency" filter 2 used in the Yamaha RX-V6A that Amir measured, with 52dB. (20 vs 3.5 samples latency).