Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[kawauso]

Distance from lcr is 3.3m, Surrounds are 2m, peak spl A weighted would around 90-95db at the max tolerable
LCRs are 98db sensitivity, Rest are 92db.
(JBL 3153 and JBL 8102)

The JBL 3153 is truly incredibly efficient.
Considering room gain and L/R summation, it seems that with 2-channel playback, about 1 watt per channel is enough to reach the required 95 dB SPL.
It really looks like almost any amplifier would work.

• Sensitivity: 98 dB / 1W / 1m
• Distance loss at 3.3 m: –10.37 dB
• SPL at 1W & 3.3 m: 87.6 dB
• Room gain: +3 dB
• L+R summation: +5 dB (assuming 1W into each speaker)
  → Final SPL: 95.6 dB at 1 watt per speaker

 

[EWL5]

I missed that the "Although yamaha limits output to 50w/ch as stated in the reviews", which review is that? That seems quite a low number for any of the midrange Yamaha AVR.
Regardless, while 50 W might be okay for 3.3 m under some use cases, I don't think it can do justice to the JBL 3153. No wonder you have the Crown amps.

Didn't Amir get 149W into 2 CH?!!!

Yamaha RX-A3080 Review (AVR)

This is a review and measurements of the Yamaha RX-A3080 Audio/Video Receiver. It was kindly purchased by a member as a refurbished unit and sent to me. This is last year's model and motivation for testing was that it shares the same amplification as this year's models which have very...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[popej]

Although yamaha limits output to 50w/ch as stated in the reviews, it still should be irrelevant as my speakers are very high sensitivity.

Limit is for RX-A6A? A3080 should go up to 5*166W, as measured here:

Yamaha RX-A3080

Die Topmodelle aus der high-endigen Aventage-Serie von Yamaha sind prallvoll ausgestattete Mehrkanal-Netzwerk-AVReceiver, die feinsten Klang, große Kraft, wertiges Design und beste Verarbeitung bieten. Das Flaggschiff RX-A3080 darf in unserem Heimkino seine künstliche Intelligenz (Surround:AI)...

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Even with 166W measured, I think the real meaning is like 166W average with 3dB headroom.

 

[kawauso]

Didn't Amir get 149W into 2 CH?!!!

Yamaha RX-A3080 Review (AVR)

This is a review and measurements of the Yamaha RX-A3080 Audio/Video Receiver. It was kindly purchased by a member as a refurbished unit and sent to me. This is last year's model and motivation for testing was that it shares the same amplification as this year's models which have very...

www.audiosciencereview.com

At 149 watts you’d be hitting roughly 117 dB.
The efficiency of the JBL 3153 is genuinely extraordinary.

 

[sahil fardeen]

I missed that the "Although yamaha limits output to 50w/ch as stated in the reviews", which review is that? That seems quite a low number for any of the midrange Yamaha AVR.
Regardless, while 50 W might be okay for 3.3 m under some use cases, I don't think it can do justice to the JBL 3153. No wonder you have the Crown amps.

I have the crown amps only for my subs, which are 4645C.

Under “some” use case? No. These jbls can tear you apart with as little as 10w. Why do you think it would not serve my case?

Just because it hits 90db peak spl doesn’t mean each speakers should output 90db. When multiple speakers are used to hit a certain spl, it needs to output way less to get the desired peak spl, which is 90-95db in this case. This includes atleast LCR simultaneously outputing at peaks.

And not to factor the room influence

 

[sahil fardeen]

Didn't Amir get 149W into 2 CH?!!!

Yamaha RX-A3080 Review (AVR)

This is a review and measurements of the Yamaha RX-A3080 Audio/Video Receiver. It was kindly purchased by a member as a refurbished unit and sent to me. This is last year's model and motivation for testing was that it shares the same amplification as this year's models which have very...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Yamaha has been reportedly limiting power when it detects more than 5ch being used. They have been doing this for ages.

It dates back to previous generations like a3050. And its still persisting on the a6a. Very sure its on the 3080 too

 

[sahil fardeen]

At 149 watts you’d be hitting roughly 117 dB.
The efficiency of the JBL 3153 is genuinely extraordinary.

Yes. I guess its even more than 98db. I had the 3677 in the same room. This was claimed 99db. But level matching it there were atleast 3-4db of difference in spl in pink noise. I assume 3153 is around 101-102db sensitivity.

Audyssey set it to -12db in my room for levels. Which is the lowest. It would have gone lower than that like -15db if it allowed for it

 

[kawauso]

Yes. I guess its even more than 98db. I had the 3677 in the same room. This was claimed 99db. But level matching it there were atleast 3-4db of difference in spl in pink noise. I assume 3153 is around 101-102db sensitivity.

Audyssey set it to -12db in my room for levels. Which is the lowest. It would have gone lower than that like -15db if it allowed for it

If you want to continue using manual EQ, staying with Yamaha is completely fine.
However, if you choose Denon, Audyssey can be restricted to low-frequency correction through the app, and in that configuration it performs far better than YPAO.
You can also use Audyssey One, an improved and highly regarded version of Audyssey.
And Dirac ART is truly excellent.

 

[sahil fardeen]

If you want to continue using manual EQ, staying with Yamaha is completely fine.
However, if you choose Denon, Audyssey can be restricted to low-frequency correction through the app, and in that configuration it performs far better than YPAO.
You can also use Audyssey One, an improved and highly regarded version of Audyssey.
And Dirac ART is truly excellent.

Well that pretty much sums up; will go for the 3800h. Thank you everyone for helping me out and educating me

 

[peng]

Under “some” use case? No. These jbls can tear you apart with as little as 10w. Why do you think it would not serve my case?

Don't know why you would say no if you don't know what that "some" is?
I did not say it wouldn't serve your case, it would because if you listen to 95 dB maximum at 3.3 m. But it wouldn't in case someone wants 85 dB average, 105 dB peak from 4m, or even the same 3.3m.

Just because it hits 90db peak spl doesn’t mean each speakers should output 90db. When multiple speakers are used to hit a certain spl, it needs to output way less to get the desired peak spl, which is 90-95db in this case. This includes atleast LCR simultaneously outputing at peaks.

And not to factor the room influence

Right, and you can throw whatever number of speakers into the equation and of course you will get higher SPL, but if I am to estimate power requirements of my setup I would use 1 single speaker and assume no room gain. Room gain is pretty much always there, but mainly in the lower frequency range. So if I prefer, and I do, a more conservative approach I would ignore room gain, just like some people want to have 3 dB so called headroom, some wants more. To me, it is cheap and easy to eliminate one variable, that is to make sure voltage, current are not going to be a concern at all at all times. Also like THD+N, most probably agreed up to 0.1% or 60 dB SINAD is transparent to humans, but then to save any argument, or concerns about frequency dependency, types/orders of the harmonics etc., I would like to set the bar at 0.01%, or 80 dB SINAD, just my preference/comfort zone.

 

[sahil fardeen]

Don't know why you would say no if you don't know what that "some" is?
I did not say it wouldn't serve your case, it would because if you listen to 95 dB maximum at 3.3 m. But it wouldn't in case someone wants 85 dB average, 105 dB peak from 4m, or even the same 3.3m.



Right, and you can throw whatever number of speakers into the equation and of course you will get higher SPL, but if I am to estimate power requirements of my setup I would use 1 single speaker and assume no room gain. Room gain is pretty much always there, but mainly in the lower frequency range. So if I prefer, and I do, a more conservative approach I would ignore room gain, just like some people want to have 3 dB so called headroom, some wants more. To me, it is cheap and easy to eliminate one variable, that is to make sure voltage, current are not going to be a concern at all at all times.

I still don’t see why it wouldn’t do 105db peaks with 3800h at 4m. This is nearly a 100db sensitivity speaker

According to the calculations provided by @kawauso i would roughly need around 8-16w at best for 4m, 105db peaks

 

[peng]

I still don’t see why it wouldn’t do 105db peaks with 3800h at 4m. This is nearly a 100db sensitivity speaker

I thought you were talking about 50 W, and without saying at what impedance either.

The 3800 is rated 105 W 8 ohms if I remember right.

 

[delta76]

Agreed, but I think we have to assume when people, especially those who obviously are experienced hobbyist such as @kawauso , saying that avrs sound the same they likely meant "decent", or "well designed/built/spec'ed" avrs when used well within their specified limits. It is not reasonable to assume that someone would say av receivers sound the same to mean a Marantz Cinema 70 would sound the same as a Cinema 30 driving a pair of KEF Ref1 sitting 12 ft from them.

View attachment 492569

I was replying to sahil fardeen . While most AVRs "sound" the same, some are borderline broken and should be avoided.

 

[peng]

I still don’t see why it wouldn’t do 105db peaks with 3800h at 4m. This is nearly a 100db sensitivity speaker

According to the calculations provided by @kawauso i would roughly need around 8-16w at best for 4m, 105db peaks

kawauso and I use different use case scenarios, in my last post I stated the following (repeated just to make it clear) in point form:

- 85 dB average, 105 dB peak from 4m, or even the same 3.3m.
- I would use 1 single speaker and assume no room gain

Also keep in mind just because it can hit a certain spl in dB, it does not mean it is optimum in terms of sound quality, for example, the bass drivers typically loves a lot higher current than the midrange and high frequency drivers. The JBL 3153 has a 4 ohm impedance rating, but I cannot find any impedance/phase angle graphs, so I would again, take a more conservative approach on their published specs:

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS 6 SYSTEM TYPE: FREQUENCY RANGE (-10 dB): SYSTEM IMPEDANCE: CROSSOVER: SYSTEM POWER: SENSITIVITY (4 PI): MAX PEAK SPL (2 PI): SYSTEM DIRECTIVITY (H x V): 3-way screen 50 Hz–18 kHz Passive: 4Ω LF: 4Ω M/HF: 4Ω Bi-amp (MF/HF + LF), full passive Passive: 460W Bi-amp: LF 460W, M/HF 160W 98 dB 134 dB 90° x 50° (-30/+20)

LF: 1 x 15” MF: 1 x 6.5” HF: 1 x 1” exit

I would also like to have some respect for their 15 inch LF driver.

Don't want to repeat, but to preamp you asking similar questions, in you use case based on distance and SPL, there is no disagreement even 50 W can meet your requirements based on your SPL requirements only.

 

[kawauso]

kawauso and I use different use case scenarios, in my last post I stated the following (repeated just to make it clear) in point form:

- 85 dB average, 105 dB peak from 4m, or even the same 3.3m.
- I would use 1 single speaker and assume no room gain

Also keep in mind just because it can hit a certain spl in dB, it does not mean it is optimum in terms of sound quality, for example, the bass drivers typically loves a lot higher current than the midrange and high frequency drivers. The JBL 3153 has a 4 ohm impedance rating, but I cannot find any impedance/phase angle graphs, so I would again, take a more conservative approach on their published specs:

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS 6 SYSTEM TYPE: FREQUENCY RANGE (-10 dB): SYSTEM IMPEDANCE: CROSSOVER: SYSTEM POWER: SENSITIVITY (4 PI): MAX PEAK SPL (2 PI): SYSTEM DIRECTIVITY (H x V): 3-way screen 50 Hz–18 kHz Passive: 4Ω LF: 4Ω M/HF: 4Ω Bi-amp (MF/HF + LF), full passive Passive: 460W Bi-amp: LF 460W, M/HF 160W 98 dB 134 dB 90° x 50° (-30/+20)

LF: 1 x 15” MF: 1 x 6.5” HF: 1 x 1” exit

I would also like to have some respect for their 15 inch LF driver.

Don't want to repeat, but to preamp you asking similar questions, in you use case based on distance and SPL, there is no disagreement even 50 W can meet your requirements based on your SPL requirements only.

Music content spreads energy across the spectrum, so focusing only on the most demanding frequency bands is not a realistic way to judge amplifier stress.
And considering that sahil fardeen perceived his JBL 3153s as effectively 101–102 dB sensitivity in-room, the required wattage may be even lower than what I estimated earlier.

Honestly, I would love to bring the 3153 + X3800H to peng’s house and raise the volume until the amplifier audibly distorts.
The X3800H delivers 114 W into 8Ω (both channels), and momentary peaks will exceed that.
With the 3153’s sensitivity, the SPL would be absolutely terrifying before the amp gives up.

 

[peng]

Music content spreads energy across the spectrum, so focusing only on the most demanding frequency bands is not a realistic way to judge amplifier stress.

I don't understand your point entirely though, in any case, my comments should be taken at face value, that is, only on the caveats I included. My concerns about a "50 W" amp, without knowing the underlying conditions, mainly voltage and current into what impedance, phase angles and yes the frequency band too, it does matter.

I don't want to say I agree or disagree to your points, instead I want to be clear that I don't fully understand your point, that's all.

And considering that sahil fardeen perceived his JBL 3153s as effectively 101–102 dB sensitivity in-room, the required wattage may be even lower than what I estimated earlier.

As I state in my original response to his given conditions, I never said he could do the SPL he needed, and I repeated that in my post# 3050 as he seemed to have missed the key word I used, that is "some". "some" does not equal his own use case.

Honestly, I would love to bring the 3153 + X3800H to peng’s house and raise the volume until the amplifier audibly distorts.
The X3800H delivers 114 W into 8Ω (both channels), and momentary peaks will exceed that.
With the 3153’s sensitivity, the SPL would be absolutely terrifying before the amp gives up.

Haha no thanks, my typical listening level is probably 85 dB maximum, from 8-10 ft and my volume dial on my Denon or Marantz AVRs/AVPs would be -20 to -15 occasionally, or -40 to -30 on my Anthem AVM70. If you bring the 3153 to my HT room, I would probably drive them with one of my several tiny fosi V3 amps.

I have never referred to the Denon AVR, and told him that in my post# 3052:

I thought you were talking about 50 W, and without saying at what impedance either.

The 3800 is rated 105 W 8 ohms if I remember right.

Sometimes I found the downside of people responding so quickly is, while nice, could leading to confusion as people missed each other in the back and forth. It is like two people heading the opposite direction keep trying to let the other go straight, yet end up both doing the same and actually end up colliding in the worse scenario. In this, case, for some reasons, I probably got preconceived incorrectly (my fault I assume), that I meant something that I didn't, lol......

 

[sahil fardeen]

I don't understand your point entirely though, in any case, my comments should be taken at face value, that is, only on the caveats I included. My concerns about a "50 W" amp, without knowing the underlying conditions, mainly voltage and current into what impedance, phase angles and yes the frequency band too, it does matter.

I don't want to say I agree or disagree to your points, instead I want to be clear that I don't fully understand your point, that's all.

As I state in my original response to his given conditions, I never said he could do the SPL he needed, and I repeated that in my post# 3050 as he seemed to have missed the key word I used, that is "some". "some" does not equal his own use case.


Haha no thanks, my typical listening level is probably 85 dB maximum, from 8-10 ft and my volume dial on my Denon or Marantz AVRs/AVPs would be -20 to -15 occasionally, or -40 to -30 on my Anthem AVM70. If you bring the 3153 to my HT room, I would probably drive them with one of my several tiny fosi V3 amps.

I have never referred to the Denon AVR, and told him that in my post# 3052:



Sometimes I found the downside of people responding so quickly is, while nice, could leading to confusion as people missed each other in the back and forth. It is like two people heading the opposite direction keep trying to let the other go straight, yet end up both doing the same and actually end up colliding in the worse scenario. In this, case, for some reasons, I probably got preconceived incorrectly (my fault I assume), that I meant something that I didn't, lol......

Well there was no misunderstanding…i assumed the 3800h should be around 50w/ch 5-7ch+ driven. Which is the same for my yamaha (although it is 150w/ch into 2ch, and 50w/ch into 7ch+, as far as the reviews state for pretty much every yamaha aventage a30x0 lineup)

 

[sahil fardeen]

kawauso and I use different use case scenarios, in my last post I stated the following (repeated just to make it clear) in point form:

- 85 dB average, 105 dB peak from 4m, or even the same 3.3m.
- I would use 1 single speaker and assume no room gain

Also keep in mind just because it can hit a certain spl in dB, it does not mean it is optimum in terms of sound quality, for example, the bass drivers typically loves a lot higher current than the midrange and high frequency drivers. The JBL 3153 has a 4 ohm impedance rating, but I cannot find any impedance/phase angle graphs, so I would again, take a more conservative approach on their published specs:

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS 6 SYSTEM TYPE: FREQUENCY RANGE (-10 dB): SYSTEM IMPEDANCE: CROSSOVER: SYSTEM POWER: SENSITIVITY (4 PI): MAX PEAK SPL (2 PI): SYSTEM DIRECTIVITY (H x V): 3-way screen 50 Hz–18 kHz Passive: 4Ω LF: 4Ω M/HF: 4Ω Bi-amp (MF/HF + LF), full passive Passive: 460W Bi-amp: LF 460W, M/HF 160W 98 dB 134 dB 90° x 50° (-30/+20)

LF: 1 x 15” MF: 1 x 6.5” HF: 1 x 1” exit

I would also like to have some respect for their 15 inch LF driver.

Don't want to repeat, but to preamp you asking similar questions, in you use case based on distance and SPL, there is no disagreement even 50 W can meet your requirements based on your SPL requirements only.

the bass drivers typically loves a lot higher current than the midrange and high frequency drivers

JBL are a few manufacturers who accurately claim their sensitivity rating. Unlike others like klipsch which inflate their numbers. Given the past records (with legacy speakers like 3677) they have a track record of providing accurate sensitivity numbers. And the sensitivity is quoted for the entire bandwidth (50hz -16khz) at “free space” (4pi)

I had a jbl 3677 and a dali ikon 6 mk2 earlier in the same room and location before this and to get a 75db spl reading for Denon test tone pink noise, at 0db MV in my denon 7200w, the levels had to be at -7db for the 3677 and +1db for the ikon 6. And note the 3677 were 99db sensitivity, and the ikon 6 mk2 were 89db sensitivity both claimed and verified.

With these 3153 in the same room and location, the levels had to be at -12db for the same pink noise and 0db MV, so i can safely say this is roughly a 100db+ sensitivity. (should be around 102db sensitivity inroom)

 

[sahil fardeen]

I don't understand your point entirely though, in any case, my comments should be taken at face value, that is, only on the caveats I included. My concerns about a "50 W" amp, without knowing the underlying conditions, mainly voltage and current into what impedance, phase angles and yes the frequency band too, it does matter.

I don't want to say I agree or disagree to your points, instead I want to be clear that I don't fully understand your point, that's all.

As I state in my original response to his given conditions, I never said he could do the SPL he needed, and I repeated that in my post# 3050 as he seemed to have missed the key word I used, that is "some". "some" does not equal his own use case.


Haha no thanks, my typical listening level is probably 85 dB maximum, from 8-10 ft and my volume dial on my Denon or Marantz AVRs/AVPs would be -20 to -15 occasionally, or -40 to -30 on my Anthem AVM70. If you bring the 3153 to my HT room, I would probably drive them with one of my several tiny fosi V3 amps.

I have never referred to the Denon AVR, and told him that in my post# 3052:



Sometimes I found the downside of people responding so quickly is, while nice, could leading to confusion as people missed each other in the back and forth. It is like two people heading the opposite direction keep trying to let the other go straight, yet end up both doing the same and actually end up colliding in the worse scenario. In this, case, for some reasons, I probably got preconceived incorrectly (my fault I assume), that I meant something that I didn't, lol......

I will clarify the “some” part.

Most home theatre owners (99%) would absolutely have zero trouble driving a speaker like this jbl 3153, at reference level and far seating, with just an avr like the 3800h alone. This is why i disagreed with you.

With other speakers, what you have stated holds true. There would be cases were 50w wouldn’t be sufficient/ would require external amplification.

 

[sahil fardeen]

Music content spreads energy across the spectrum, so focusing only on the most demanding frequency bands is not a realistic way to judge amplifier stress.
And considering that sahil fardeen perceived his JBL 3153s as effectively 101–102 dB sensitivity in-room, the required wattage may be even lower than what I estimated earlier.

Honestly, I would love to bring the 3153 + X3800H to peng’s house and raise the volume until the amplifier audibly distorts.
The X3800H delivers 114 W into 8Ω (both channels), and momentary peaks will exceed that.
With the 3153’s sensitivity, the SPL would be absolutely terrifying before the amp gives up.

Would prolly be deaf before that. I bet